Talk:Japanophile/Archive 1

Seagaliana
by a consensus of wikipedians, it was determined that this useful category be eliminated. however, i maintain this valuable resource on my user page --Ghetteaux 13:30, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Wapanese
It was my understanding that the word Wapanese is not derived from white and Japanese at all, but was meant as short for "wannabe Japanese." Surely, there are many people who could be considered "wapanese" who are not Caucasian.


 * Yes, it is. White + Japanese == Wapanese.  How else can it be derived?  Women? KyuuA4 19:27, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Can you find any supporting references for this? If so, we can add that as a possible origin for the word. --nihon 17:07, 7 December 2005 (UTC)


 * That's how I always saw it as. That's the only way I've known the word, and while I don't know exactly the origin of the word, it's the only way I've heard it used. --mirth 17:47:35, 7 December 2005 (UTC)


 * If you can find 2-3 references online indicating that, then we can add that as a possible origin. --nihon 02:15, 8 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I always figured it was the same origin as wigger (white nigger).

I rewrote the article in my tub, aiming to make knuckle children. Comments? Questions? Criticism? Concerns? Suggestions? --nihon 19:46, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Merge
Someone on the Asian fetish page suggested merging similar articles:

"couldn't this page be merged with Japanophile and/or Asian fetish ? I think it returns to few hits on google to be worthwhile :-P Flammifer 02:03, 23 July 2005 (UTC)"

I think he is right. All three articles, Asian fetish, Asiaphilia, and Japanophile, are poorly written, very POV and poorly sourced. I think a merge under the Asian fetish page would lead to a better article which can prevent all points of view and also list various terms. 50 pages of stub-like quality vs. one comprehensive article. Japanohpile and Asiaphile are slang terms anyway. For an encyclopedia, a more neutral term is preferable, thus "asian fetish"

Feedback please! Willowx 07:13, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Let me give this a try. There are three Wikipedia entries to examine: Asiaphilia, Japanophile, and Asian fetish, plus Asiaphile (redirect page); and decide which to delete, leave alone, or merge. Can we agree that there are two fundamental differences here? On one side there is the socio-cultural issue of a non-Asian person with an interest in aspects of Asian culture such as music, food, people, movies. To my way of thinking this pertains to both the Asiaphilia and Japanophile articles. Now there is also sexuality side of it, Asian fetish. One does not necessitate the other. Regardless of one’s own personal beliefs, the fact does exist that there are individuals who these terms do apply to. Looking at the history of the pages it seems obvious that these subjects incite some strong feelings by some users here. My conclusions are below, and I welcome any more eloquent member to amplify with their own thoughts. Your ideas? --Tony Hecht 19:45, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep Asiaphilia
 * Merge Japanophile into Asiaphilia
 * Keep Asian fetish
 * Change Asiaphile (redirect page) to point to Asiaphilia
 * Use the Template:Cleanup-verify
 * Remove the Template:Disputed and the Template:POV
 * Recommend also look at Otaku and Orientalism
 * Keep separated. Among Westerners, a strong association separates Japan from the rest of Asia and the world. KyuuA4 16:30, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

==


 * The problem I see is that there are two aspects: 1) a positive view, a la Francophile, ie. a fan of a culture and 2) a negative view, of some kind of exploitation/fetish. On top of these ambiguity, we have mulitple slang that convey the same idea: Wapanese, Japanophile, Sinophile, Koreanophile, Asiaphile, Asian fetish etc. I think it is silly to have a separate page for every single slang variation, and plus the quality is very low. I'd rather we condense this topic into one or two articles that presents all sides objectively, with sources, and maybe lists various slang variations. In essence, one article presenting both negative and positive views. Does this make sense? The question I have is, if we merge, is Asian fetish a better central term (or is it too exclusively sexual) or is Asiaphilia a better term (although a bit POV slangy). Is there any better word????????? "Asian dating controversy", "Asian White controvery" or something more encyclopedic?? Willowx 09:32, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

==

Okay, speaking as someone who was described 100% in the Japanophile article, here's my input: When refering to the sexual side of things, I think it is probably safe to throw everything under "asian fetish" (after all, the average white guy probably can't tell which country the naked asian porns stars he stares at really come from). Then a separate, well-written article for the culture side. The Japanophile could be thrown in with Otaku section since both terms have the same roots (a heavy interest in Japanese culture). BTW After reading the Wapanese/Japanophile I felt slapped. I think an encyclopedia should be more objective. Mostly we're just people who watch too much anime, but the article makes it sound like a bloody psycologic disorder!

BTW for interest sake, I come from South Africa, so Japanophiles exist as far out as here;-p

User Name: FinalAngel

I agree that there should be separate articles for the sexual side (Asian festish) and the cultural interest side (Japanophile, Asiaphile, or whatever). There are many people who have an interest in Japan without it being a sexual interest. --nihon 19:29, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I think the Wapanese article should be merged into and become a subsection of this article. It seems to me the someone who would be considered Wapanese would be an extreme version of a Japanophile.
 * I also think that Japanophile should be kept separate from Asiaphile.
 * Since we're going with the English definitions of the word, I think Otaku may be a good candidate for a subsection of Japanophile, as well, rather than a separate page (for the same reasons I'm suggesting for "Wapanese").
 * --nihon 17:06, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
 * The Wapanese page has been merged into this one now. --nihon 20:18, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

NPOV
This article is full of undocumented assertions that seem basically made up. I think it needs some academic sources to back up these assertions, otherwise people can claim the stereotype means anything they like. Otherwise it should be put up for VfD.

==

"However, those that can just barely write their name in katakana are pretentious hypocrites, and should be ignored."

Should wikipedia really give advice like this?

I don't think so.

==

Is this the only problem with this article's "point of view"? If it is, then the NPOV notice is totally unnecessary, cause that line isn't there anymore. Count Zero 06:22, 2005 Mar 3 (UTC)

Not very objective, but great article here!

== I don't think we should lump lolicons with wapanese.

And then there are the Japanophiles who go on to become gaijin. What a world, what a world. Jeshii 01:06, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)

==
 * 1) a fetish towards underage girls; many different mangas feature underage girls as sexualised idols, which gives the impression that Japanophiles are pedophiles as well, worsening the stigma around them

those poor tokyo freaks. How will we ever get the world to love them?

== Deleted the following line due to its absurdity.Atheistrabbi 17:02, July 21, 2005 (UTC)
 * Also, a Japanohpile is someone who has sexual relations with the Japanese alphabet. Also known to develop feelings for certain letters.

Pejorative?!
Is this term really pejorative? Checking some of the entires in "what links here", I find only one other mention on Wikipedia of it being derogatory, which is in the Otaku article, whereas it is used simply to mean "one friendly towards or interested in Japan" in the articles on, for example, Franco-Japanese relations and Henry Watkin. I used it myself in the Kanon article simply to mean "fans of Japanese popular culture". I have never encountered a pejorative use myself. I have edited the beginning of the article to remove the claim I believe to be incorrect, namely that the word is usually pejorative; I can find no support for this. It is my opinion that most of the rest of the article is a redundant duplication of information already present under otaku, but I shan't delete it outright without giving people a chance to explain to me why I'm wrong. ;) -- Haeleth July 2, 2005 16:47 (UTC)


 * Why is this term pejorative while Francophile and Anglophile are not? Is there something shameful about being interested in Asian cultures?  This seems like a problem with systemic bias. –Shoaler (talk) 11:51, 18 August 2005 (UTC)


 * couldn't agree more. frankly, i was shocked when i first came across the word japanophile, used pejoratively, meaning "one who is obsessed with things japanese beyond healthy measures". this is because i always considered myself a japanophile, in the conservative meaning of the word - i studied japanese at uni, i have been there, travelled a bit, enjoy reading a japanese book from now to then and seeing the occasional japanese film. also, i have little to no interest in anime or manga - i percieve those as an interesting facet of the culture i study, but don't obsess with them. to me, the way the article is written now seems rather POV - the way i see it, the "obsessive maniac" part of the meaning of the word is a fairly late corruption of the word's original meaning, used in a fairly small percentage of it's use (mainly younger american populace, the way i understood it). while i'm no prude about language and know that language evolves and some things, seen today as "inacurate" or "corrupt" uses of a word might be canonical  dictionary definitions of the same word by tomorrow, i still think that this article stresses way too much on this minor meaning of the word. i suggest the article should be toned down a bit on the "obsessive maniac" meaning of the word and stress the wider used and more correct meaning of the word as counterpart to "francophile" or "anglophile". for starters, a list of famous japanophiles (politicians, writesr and such) could be added. english is not just the language of young americans, it is today the accepted lingua franca of the world. and yes, i am not american, nor is english my mother tongue. 213.172.254.36 16:04, 14 February 2006 (UTC)


 * A Japanophile such as Lafcadio Hearn is not referred to as a Japanophile perjoratively. Perhaps there are people who use the word perjoratively, but they are the same who would use Francophile or Anglophile the same way. The word is not perjorative in normal usage and I am editing the paragraph accordingly. As to the wapanese phenomenon shown (and the reaction to it), well, it does exist and should be noted. 198.60.159.10 20:30, 20 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I believe it is because francophiles or anglophiles tend to have their interests focused on the higher aspects of those respective cultures, whereas "Japanophiles" [though I've tended to use "Nipponophile" instead] almost without exception implies an interest in the *trashier* components of Japanese culture. That and the fact that much of Japanese culture is considered [and rightly in my opinion] decadent to Europeans, what with the underage eroticism, tentacle rape, cartoon sex and all that... it all adds up to a imply a negativity about the term. - Walshicus


 * Yes, there is something shameful about it. [anonymous san]


 * Underage eroticism, tentacle rape, cartoon sex are not the basis of Japanese culture. One that is Japanophile doesn't necessarily mean he is hentai-obsessed because that is not part of the main Japanese culture. The way you and some other westerners seem to look at Japanese culture in a limited and ignorant way. I am not Japanese (not Asian either) and I'm conscious that I still don't know everything about the Japanese culture, but I always try to (and look forward to) know more. The way you say it makes it seem that i.e. the American culture is all about pornography and war then, which is not true. People tend to hold onto the negative facets of a culture, which is wrong. You must know that those negative facets aren't the only thing that is part of the culture and most likely don't make up even for 1% of the culture. The positive facets I mostly admire on the Japanese is their politeness, their creativity and how hard they work. It's amazing how fast they recovered after the WWII. --Pedrovsk 04:28, 10 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it pejorative cause people who are focused on japanese pop culture, which is a poor view on a culture mainly focusing on its pop cultureAngelofdeath275 05:52, 1 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Well I guess it depends on how you look at it. Just because one is a japanophile doesn't mean he is focused on japanese pop culture. Some people who are focused on the ancient culture and japanese philosophy can be considered japanophiles and that isn't a bad thing.Pedrovsk 17:09, 10 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Huh? Pop culture, which according to that article "comprises the daily interactions, needs and desires and cultural 'moments' that make up the everyday lives of the mainstream" and "often contrasts with a more exclusive, even elitist 'high culture'", is somehow a poor view on a culture? Isn't that exactly the right view, keeping things in perspective, instead of emphasizing fringe (elitist or otherwise) parts? Why would focus on pop culture cause the term japanophile to become pejorative? -- 82.103.215.236 22:40, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree, but I think it also depends on who uses it. Like for instance, I would use Japanophille pejorative, and not just refering to the japanese pop culture Angelofdeath275 21:51, 16 October 2006 (UTC)


 * You would? I don't see what's so bad about the other good things of Japanese culture that you would still use it as a pejorative. Give examples. Pedrovsk 00:36, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Asiaphilia
Any thoughts on merging Asiaphilia into this article ?

Also, shouldn't the term "wapanese" also appear somewhere in this article ? Flammifer 02:06, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Japanese vs. Asia
Yikes... these is so much wrong with this whole topic... but since I don't fall under any of them, I barely care... however: DO NOT MERGE Japanphilia with Asiaphilia... why? Because Japanese, Chinese, and Koreans language, looks, and culture are all different... also, Asian includes India and the Philipines... both of which are VERY VERY different from "oriental" asia. Basically, not everyone who has a Japanese fetish also has a fetish for Chinese and Korean... JUST Japanese. The two should remain seperate. Natsuki 23:08, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
 * You have a point. If I typed in "japanophile" and ended up on a page called "Asian fetish" I would be quite surprised. --Apoc2400 00:42, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree with not merging Japanophile and Asiaphile. While one may be a subset of the other, those interested in Japan are not necessarily interested in any other Asian country. --nihon 19:32, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Do not merge Otaku with Japanophile
Otaku can refer to someone who lives in Japan and is an obsessee of some subculture (like a furry). If anything, the article about this definition at least must be preserved. There are articles titled Otaku in roughly a dozen languages; check out the size of the Japanese article, there's a lot to be translated there! Actually, I move to get rid of the template now. Ashibaka (tock) 05:48, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
 * After thinking about it a bit more, I think the Otaku article is large enough and different enough to stand on its own. Removed the template. --nihon 06:28, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree not to merge Otaku with Japanophile. Otaku literally means an obsession... of anything, depending on what word you're putting with it. It's like the word maniac... there's sex mania, tv mania, food mania... the word "mania" doesn't mean just one specific thing. Likewise otaku doesn't stand for one obsession, it can be used for expressing any mania. Only in the US has the word been affixed to anime obsession... but of course they wrong when they imply that otaku means "japan obsession" or "anime obsession" only. -- NatsukiGirl \talk 01:45, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

"and occasionally written as wotaku"
Is this true? In Japanese, wotaku is just an alternative, 2ch-style spelling for otaku. User:130.233.22.111 (Talk) 23:51, October 28, 2005 (UTC)
 * I believe this was a misunderstanding. Ashibaka (tock) 05:51, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I would say that it is written as wotaku to distinguish from a Western Japanese anime lover User:yukikanou (Talk) 23:00, Febuary 22, 2006 (UTC)
 * The only time I see ヲタクis if it's some snobby otaku magazine or website in Japan, or if it's a really old reference to the word. Currently, オタクor おたくare the "spellings" used 99% of the time. --日本穣 05:00, 23 February 2006 (UTC)


 * ヲタ　or ヲタク　(wota or wotaku) is a word for an "idol otaku" ... someone who is obsessed with idols. -- NatsukiGirl \talk 01:51, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Merging with Japanophile
It has been proposed this article be merged into Japanophile as "Wapanese" is seen as a sub-categorization of it. Thoughts? --nihon 06:49, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Wotaku is used nowhere outside of 2ch, therefore it does not count [anonymous san]

I'd rather see the page "Wapanese" removed completely as a page rather than have it link to "Japanophile", where the term is not mentioned since Wapanese is a perjorative and Japanophile is not.

weeaboo
i always thought weeaboo meant a person who enjoys spanking


 * Correct me if I am wrong, but the story behind the weeaboo/wapanese link comes from 4chan.org's /b/ image board. A few months ago, the word "wapanese" was filtered to "weeaboo" (a reference to Perry Bible Fellowship) and "wap" was filtered to "wee". The filter was so popular that weeaboo became synonymous with wapanese at 4chan and elsewhere.
 * ---McSnuffy

weeaboo is 4chan term.Its not real word. If that wordfilter wasnt there the article will have it removed (or referenced as alternative)? Does 4chan have such wide cultural impact in America? Do people get insulted weeaboo on the street(hypothetically:Does this term replace it.)? Mcsnuffy could you elaborate on "elsewhere"?


 * Oh yeah, because only a cultural impact in AMERICA would be notable, amirite?
 * Get some perspective.

Weeaboo originates from the Perry Bible Fellowship comic and didn't really have much of a meaning. Since /b/ wordfiltered 'wapanese' to 'weeaboo' on 4chan it became synomous with Japanophile on there since. Some don't even know what's the real use for it there anymore.

How about Chapanese (description for Japanese impersonating Chinese people)
I just want to ask how about Chapanese, if not, what is the definition for Chinese people who likes to impersonate the Japanese and their lifestyle, just like Wapanese as it is very common in Asian countries like Hong Kong

This is very similar by definition.Wapanese are not exclusively White americans. Its like people who are emulating Japanese Culture,regardless of ethnicity. quote http://bash.org/?295020 may describe such behavior(albeit one-time event)? Its a international subculture.

Wopanese
Neither well known or not commonly in use? Perhaps not in your neck of the woods. Where I am from, Wapanese is hardly a well known term - even less well known, perhaps, than Wopanese. Now, I accept your right to edit your page and to keep the content limited to what you feel is related and appropriate, and I will create a separate page for the term, but I must disagree with the reasoning.

FYI - the origins of Wapanese do, indeed, come from the same roots that gave us Wigger. My feeling, however, is that is only likely to find any use in such places where there is somewhat of a noticeable Japanese population. Wigger is very common in America at least in part due to the entirety of pop culture... and you don't exactly see a lot of J-Pop on MTV.

Just my two cents. Have a nice weekend.

Jacques Chirac's Inclusion
Can anyone explain why Jacques Chirac is mentioned as a Japanophile in this article?--Halloween jack 03:53, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd like to know as well. I don't know much about him, but it doesn't seem like he'd be one.
 * The Jacques Chirac article makes no mention of it, and I think this should follow the wishes of the editors over there. I believe there was a mention of Jacques in Da Vinci Code, which might be where the previous editor got his idea from.  freshgavin ΓΛĿЌ 05:23, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

what a progress
I remember this was a redirect to japanophile.I still think this needs to be expanded.This term is used not only in american forums.Its worldwide.

here is my definition: Wapanese is racial slur by proponents of mainstream American/Local Country/Popular culture to single out anime fans and people deeply interested in Japan. Adoption of Japanese Culture is myth,these people don't live in Japan and Don't usually socialize with japanese.They are fascinated with certain aspects,most of them which are Unique or different in Japanese Culture(there are thousands f things for example that separate mainstream American Culture values and English culture,but this is far greater rift.).They emulate these aspects. Calling themself anime names or taking identity of anime/manga characters is not "becoming japanese".By this logic Tolkien fans are "becoming Elf".

People who really want to "Become Japanese" just emigrate to japan(which isn't actully changing them,they just seek to be assimilated in Japanese Culture which wapanese already do). Cultural Superiority? Each culture is unique,people who are dissatisfied with mainstream culture adopt a foreign culture,or form a new subculture(which is only a case when the people develop something unique e.g. art,social cirles,etc). anime subculture is however different then Wapanese. Some who seek to emulate aspects of Japanese culture even ignore anime and concentrate on such things as ikebana (flower arragement) ,kendo (sword fighting) or martial arts (karate,aikido,etc) or just Japanese cuisine(What makes this insulting you don't get called Francophile/French fag for eating a french baget or Chink/Sinophile if you order Chinese food. Pocky is different? )

Picture and latest edits
I have attempted to repair some of the damage done by a handful of strong unsourced fact dependant edits that reek of OR and the image has now been reverted twice, with no reasoning given on how to keep it. Please discuss why you feel the image should be included here before attempting to revert again. Thanks. freshofftheufo ΓΛĿЌ  06:24, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Out of curiosity, why was the image removed to begin with?--Raguleader 21:58, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * It's a picture of a well known expert on Japanese culture and he's "popular" among the internet community with regards to Japanese popular/mainstream culture. The name escapes me as of now. What does everyone else think? Ttchiem 22:15, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I have just recently discussed with Ttchiem (an acquaintance of mine and the original poster) about this picture . As far as I can tell, the picture fits appropriately and is adequately labeled for this topic. Relevenance to the topic includes
 * 1) A non-Japanese person interested in Japan
 * 2) Obvious signs of interest in Japanese history (flags)
 * 3) Obvious signs of Japanese sports (kendo)
 * These are direct properties listed in the description of the listing for "Japanophile" and the picture in no way hurts this topic. For this reason I have reinstated the picture. The person in this picture is widespread on numerous locations on the web as well as conventions to be the 'The Japanophile.'--BrookieDragon 22:29, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The picture was removed (check the edit summaries) because in all honesty it appears to be a simple vanity shot Vanity guidelines. The whole problem here is not that it was removed, but that it was re-reverted twice with no logic presented. If you think it deserves to be here, please argue your case instead of simply reverting.
 * The sentence you just used It's a picture of a well known expert on Japanese culture and he's "popular" among the internet community [...] The name escapes me as of now gives me no reason not to think that it's just a bogus statement fabricated for the very purpose of this argument. Which forces me to ignore your comments entirely. BrookieDragon has taken the effort to actually write up some sensible reasonings. Since the three points he gives are correct, if you can prove that the image is not just a "vanity image" e.g. he's not just some random Wikipedia editor holding a kendo stick, then the image can rightfully stay. freshofftheufo  ΓΛĿЌ  03:24, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

It appears the original inserter just was a little short on proper methods to deal with these things. Well known expert on Japanese culture seems to be pushing it, but if I recall correctly, this guy is a regular at many local and other southern conventions I've been too (in the past at least). He had a booth representing his site I believe at a few. From what I recall, what made him notable was a blog I read a few years back called "Keep your Socks Clean." I don't know if its still in effect but he was easily seen as, and tried to portray himself as, a stereotypical Japahophile (at least what appears to be so in Wiki definition)... and in other cases an otaku, though this picture clearly fits his belonging as Japanophile. This was the source of alot of his writings and the reason he was read. --BrookieDragon 20:19, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Firstly, please read the vanity guidelines and What Wikipedia is not and also have a look at the articles in notability criteria category carefully. The person in question, with all due respects, is not a "well-known expert on Japanese culture" and I don't see what valid excuse can disqualify this picture from being vain and non-notable. Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a photo album, with all due respects. - Ganryuu 21:13, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Of course not, but I reapplied the picture from the original inserter because it fits the catagory properly. It is only helpful to the this word listing, and follows closely what the wiki definition is. Saying he is an expertert in Japanese culture is pretty bogus, but then again, a Japanophile never really is classified as an expert. It says within the definition itself as a misguided interest sometimes. "Japanophile" is not something that one person can represent, but this picture and what this person has done makes this picture adequate. --BrookieDragon 22:50, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I remember Keep Your Socks Clean.I loved it. I'll support his picture here so that the vain argument of the original poster doesn't hold water. The picture fits the word perfectly. --Getlow 16:18, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

It would be helpful to know who this actually is and what he actually did (I feel the description above is rather vague). BookieDragon's explanation was argumented, but I am concerned as a picture of the same person was posted with a different description, see, although a discussion above resulted in not merging otaku with japanophile... Tensaibuta 02:00, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I've now added an image of Lafcadio Hearn, a notable author well-known for his works on Japan, which is befitting of this article, instead of the earlier, non-notable, non-verifiable image. Lafcadio Hearn's strong interest in Japanese culture and his scholarly works are much more verifiable, documented and notable and better befitting of an encyclopedic entry. - Ganryuu 14:22, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

--Ulver99 19:35, 10 June 2006 (UTC) Reinstated a picture removal. Though the addition of Lafcadio is notable, it was far from purposes of benefit of the article, but more to suite your harassment of the "Japanophile" picture. You seem to be trying to crash this picture as well as the one simular on another article for your own personal goals, not the benefit of Wiki. Lafcadio does suit this article, but I have reinstated the previous picture also as it touches on the fanatic/popular culture side of Japanophile which is so common today and what most people recognize the word as. Several people seem to have said they where familiar with this person so your arguement that it was a vain picture that you've been using to crash these pictures has been proven wrong time and time again. Just because you are not aware of the source does not mean no one is. Now, your picture is up, and the other picture is up. They both help this article and go well with the definition, lets get along now?
 * It's a little bit hypocritical to revert someones actions and then insist everyone get along at the same time. But anyway... the point you're missing here that Ganryuu is trying to get across is that you are confusing the core meaning of Japanophile with otaku. Japanophile is a historical word with strong links to experts on aspects of Japanese culture. Someone with an obsessive interest in modern Japanese imagery (despite the fact that kendo is a traditional sport, the idea of it as a cool fashion is a modern idea) should not be considered a Japanophile because they lack the intellectual affection to the country, which is implied by the word.
 * Of course, the meaning of both words (Japanophile and otaku) has become increasingly blurred because of misuse and the fact that nobody really cares that they are different, but that's no excuse to essentially officialize the merging of the two words, when they still have unique messages to contribute to an encyclopedia. freshofftheufo  ΓΛĿЌ  01:30, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I removed the picture again, it looks like some random guy dressed for Halloween than a serious example of a Japonophile. --62.245.143.34 09:45, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Repaired picture. I think his purpose of "getting along" was that adding both pictures for all aspects of the word was better then just one. I think he was going for compromise instead of 'my way and my way alone.' Japanophile deals with numerous aspects beyond that of Otaku. The differences are subtle but very different. Though Japanophile may have links to "experts of Japanese culture" (Ex. professors and the picture of the author), it is impossible to denounce the common day use of Japanophile in common culture. This use being something with a huge interest (addiction?) in something Japanese. I would bet my life to say that most use of the word in present days is that of the popular culture of someone obsessing rather then someone studying about Japan.

If its causing this much of a problem between the historical aspects of the word and the common present day uses, maybe we should more clearly define two sections within the entry, seperating the old and the new? I agree that the older and more original use of the word is important, but we can't ignore the common day uses that most people know the word as.--Getlow 16:52, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Otaku pic
Okay, that picture has got to go. It is not a picture of a Japanophile, but of an overly-obsessed fan (a.k.a. otaku) of kendo and the Imperial Japanese Navy. There is a difference, as Freshgavin pointed out above. That picture has no place in this article. Period. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  06:33, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * This picture has nothing to do with otaku. Otaku deals with, anime and manga obsessions in the foreign sense as well as a lonely, secluded,geeky individual with "dark" habits (and often hygeine) in a Japanese sense.


 * This picture suits nothing for that so calling it otaku is crossing the line between that word and Japanophile. Further more, the description of the word "Japanophile" directly says a person with a limited perception of Japan, often a foreigner. It further went to describe fans of Japanese sports such as Kendo, but I Just noticed that someone just edited out Kendo within this word as a way to further prove their arguement. I'm gonna have to go through history and find out because its cheap to edit liable information in a subject just to argue your way further in the topic. So as others have said above, it shows a foreigner (non Japanese)(1),with a strong interest in Japan (2), pertaining to history (3) and kendo (4).


 * I also say if you think so badly about it go ahead and make a popular culture section that GetLow has been talking about and then the historical section. Cause every time I have heard "Japanophile" in my life it has been about someone that is obsessed with something with Japan with no reason other then it is Japanese. I've never heard anyone describe a historian or something as such.--BrookieDragon 14:08, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
 * BrookieDragon, I think you should stop relying on your stock of common knowledge taken off of Wikipedia to fuel your arguments. The description of the word "Japanophile" directly says a person with a limited perception of Japan is an un-cited statement probably added by an anon. IP user, and if I had the energy I'd probably argue to get that removed as well. I don't understand your statment often a foreigner either, because Japanophiles are always foreigners of Japan. Your description of "otaku" also hints at a lack of true knowledge of the term, and again I wouldn't advise you use the wiki page for reference on such a watered down topic. There will never be a "popular culture" section and a "history" section, because, well, wikipedia is not for posting imaginary unsourced documents. I don't know why you feel so strongly about this anyways. freshofftheufo  ΓΛĿЌ  14:57, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Wow, this is starting to creep on the edges of pure ignorance. You are bashing this guy over stupid matters such as him saying in a discussion (and not something he was trying to site) the difference between "often a foreigner" compared to "always a foreigner." I'm sorry to say this but you are now on the point of just trying to slander a person to make your own point.


 * Not only is it pointless to attack someone like that, you yell about his credability when you sit here and make your own statements with nothing to back you up. Such as..."The description of the word "Japanophile" directly says a person with a limited perception of Japan'' is an un-cited statement probably added by an anon." That sounds like an awfully bold action to take just for the fact that you think, without actually checking if someone non-registered added it.


 * By the way, first sentance on the otaku page is "In English, otaku refers to a variety of geek or fanboy/fangirl obsessed with anime and manga." Maybe you should check your own knowledge of the word Freshgavin cause that seems to be what the other guy was saying.


 * The problem here, is people are getting into ego matches against "what I know is more correct then what you know." I'm glad that someone is supporting my idea to make two sections of this word, but calling everything else not dealing with the historical aspect as imaginery is just blind also. If you actually read through the definition of "Japanophile" you will see talk about anime and Japanese horror movies. This IS popular culture. Its already in the Wiki entry, all I'm saying is, if theres this much fight over the matter of what should go there and what shouldn't, then it should be split up into two sections of the more defined meanings of the word. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Getlow (talk • contribs).

GetLow, I appreciate you backing me up on this. But lets calm things down a bit on all ends here cause things starting to heat up.

I hope you can also keep things more civil Fresh. Denying everything I'm saying because I'm not citing it ~in this discussion~ is hardly right, specially since you follow it up with such statements you have not bothered to check such as the source of the statement about a Japanophile sometimes has a limited perception of Japan.

I get most of my information that I used here from the Wiki Otaku entry. As Getlow showed, the first sentance of the article expresses what I'm trying to say. And telling me that I have no voice in this debate because you think I'm making stuff up on personal knowledge isn't true either. And must I remind you that Otaku and Japanophile are both slang terms. The very basis of the word is just from how people think and use the word.

We are starting to spin away with this arguement though. The picture? The picture shows a kendo enthusiast, who is a foreigner, who also seems to appreciate Japanese history with the Imperial flag. And, and you can quote me on this one, "in no way does this hurt or discredit this entry."

The debate seems to be drifting from "should this picture be here" too "is there a popular culture side to Japanophile?" It seems some are fighting against the popular culture when it says within the Wikipedia article itself about fans of J-horror and the such, as Getlow points out. Maybe the ones against this just don't like the words "popular culture." Well then what else should we call it?

There is no doubt an older use of Japanophile, as expressed with the old fashioned picture and talks about the historians. But, without a doubt also, there is a different use today for Japanophile, and I"m talking about one that is given attention too with the foreigners, who 'sometimes' have a limited perception of Japan. An American who uses a futon, takes Japanese classes, and drinks sake just for purpose that its Japanese....thats a strong example of a Japanophile following Wiki description and Popular culture. A person who makes friends with Japanese people just because of their nationality, takes Kendo to try to make himself appear more knowledgable about Japanese pasttimes, and practices Origami....that is another example. Do either of these guys have (what would be hard to evaluate this in any "factual context") real knowledge of Japan? Probably not, they just obsess about it from their limited perceptions. But they are prime examples of a Japanophile, even without being a well accredited historion. I view this picture as the same way. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by BrookieDragon (talk • contribs).
 * I removed the picture again. It is far too cliche to be taken seriously and seems to be more an act of vanity that any serious addition to the article in my opinion. The guy in picture looks more somebody on their way to a costume party than somebody who could be easily identified as a Japanophile on appearence alone. There must be a more serious picture somewhere people. --62.245.143.34 12:59, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Last edits
These edits added recently have not been referenced to any source whatsoever, deal with a point that is debated to exist at all, and in general blatantly appear to consist solely of original research. I will give a certain amount of time for anyone to defend the most recent edits before I revert to the previous version. freshofftheufo ΓΛĿЌ  04:33, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
 * So, what's to debate about the point of its existence? You seem to be taking a rather know-it-all attitude towards this article, so you tell me. All you're saying at this point is that the content of the edit is stupid and useless because no sources are cited, but judging from the information in this talk page, you seem to hold a biased belief that the term Japanophile is not and should not be a pejorative, so of course, anything stating it as such no matter how ample the evidence must be stricken from the record. The point is that although there are few (if any) sources that describe a pejorative Japanophile in the academic sense, judging from even the past conversations on this talk page (and even while disregarding the 4chan goofballs), the term can be used as a pejorative and it is used as such. Maybe the added content isn't to your liking, and maybe it could benefit from some academic sourcing (I cannot defend the lack of academic sources, so I will go ahead and air that out as well), but just because you believe it's false doesn't mean that it is.

I have little doubt that this conversation will not change your mind in any way. However, even if the content is reverted, I also have very little doubt that, down the line, people will continue to post information regarding pejorative Japanophiles in this article with varying levels of detail and source accuracy. I just thought you should know that before dismissing the concept as "debated to exist at all."--Hailinel 23:17, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm a little offended that you accuse me of having a "know-it-all" attitude simply for requesting real sources for the information that you insist on including on Wikipedia. I assure you I act equally defensive of every article that I choose to put forth my comments on. I do not understand why you imagine I have some sort of biased beliefs, the article has never been written to give the impression that Japanophile was an overly "good" word in the first place. What part of the sentence, The word is sometimes used in a derogatory manner to denote a person with an excessive or misguided interest with Japan. which you removed doesn't clearly get across the point that is can also be used in a pejorative mannar? Since you have given no effort to verify your claims, and you state your self that your information isn't academic, I will restore the original version. freshofftheufo  ΓΛĿЌ  01:26, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Decisions to keep or remove information on Wiki should not be left to whether or not you are offended by someone's opinion. I find it slightly arrogant myself that you come and make a post demanding proof when there are about 3-5 people above this post that have all talked about why they want the picture, as well as the validy, and the reasoning to why the picture should be left. Then, in response to your demand for yet more proof, someone post a message discussing it. Your response was nothing more then they didn't do good enough job of proving your so called demands and you remove it anyways.

In my opinion, nothing would have been good enough for you. If you want proof, read the past few articles in this discussion as many people have given proof. Many people have given support. People have also shown support by editing the text of the description of the picture. What else could people want? This is quickly turning into you just wanting your own way.--BrookieDragon 19:18, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

By the way to Ganyruu... asking an admin what to do about a picture you don't like, and them responding that you can always remove it, does NOT give you administrative support in removing a picture. I could read the FAQ and then claim the same thing if that was the case, cause after all, that was made by the admins. If an admin truelly felt something was wrong with the picture, against all the other support we have here on this page, then they would have done something about the picture themselves, not call you to be their lapdog of personal justice. --BrookieDragon 13:01, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Notable Japanophiles
I removed the following phrase:
 * Notable Japanophiles have included Gwen Stefani, Lafcadio Hearn, Steven Seagal, Valentino Rossi, and Trey Parker.

It sits here for long time without confirmations provided. References, please. Either person's wikipedia article or some else must say it: Verifiability. `'mikka (t) 08:03, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I added it back with only Hearn and Seagal, as their articles support this. Nothing in Stefani's article indicates any of the qualities of Japanophilia (even her Harajuku Girls video seems to be a passing interest). Rossi's article only indicates he's on a team owned by Yamaha, which lends nothing to supporting the theory. Trey Parker's may indicate an interest in Japan, but there is nothing concrete in his article that indicates that. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  16:11, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you for a serious attitude and diligence. `'mikka (t) 19:31, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Gwen Stefani should be included as her last two albums, tours, tv appearances etc have blatantly used japanese styles including clothes, dancers, art, etc.
 * Sounds more like a "PR stunt" of some sort, than real Japanophilia (spelling?) to me. Unless, of course, it was her choice and she made it because she has "a strong interest in one or more aspects of Japan or Japanese culture". 83.252.167.175 23:47, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * More evidence to support the idea that Gwen is a Japanophile: I remember long ago reading somewhere that the members of No Doubt enjoyed eating Kaaru, a popular Japanese snack food (kinda like corn puffs). Also, it is my personal opinion that she had been stealing from Yuki Isoya since around the time of the No Doubt Tragic Kingdom album up till some time between Rock Steady and her solo gigs. Her solo gig is very contrary to YUKI, but before that point, it seemed like she was mostly ripping off, or taking heavy cues from YUKI. I once did an extensive and detailed album-art (in the case of No Doubt's Tragic Kingdom vs. Judy and Mary's Orange Sunshine), album-idea (in the case of No Doubt's Rock Steady vs. YUKI's PRISMIC), and picture comparison (dealing with concert fashions and hair-dos and such between the two) of Gwen and YUKI, along with relevant release dates to support my theory that YUKI was being stolen from by Gwen, but this was on an old forum before wikipedia came around. I could do it again, if I thought it would be useful. -- NatsukiGirl \talk 07:46, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

If notable Japanophiles are to be added, do include Kelly Osbourne. She loves shopping in Japan, has considerable Japanese influence in her style, and has recently finished a documentary on Japan where she took a working holiday there for 5 weeks. BokuAlec 05:30, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Proof of Gwen Stefani's Japanophilia: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D61GLT9fcUU. To quote her, "I wish I was Japanese". -24.92.43.153 12:19, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

weeaboo
if weeaboo redirects here there ought to be some explanation why! -- 84.160.54.149 21:27, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I know, weeaboo is not wapanese. weeaboo is different it needs it's own article --Ninja 08:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

source?????
"However it does not always translate into political like of Japan itself[citation needed]." that does not need a citation.. nor could it possibly have one. thats like saying: hitting a person with a car does not always kill them, then someone saying WHAT ARE YOUR SOURCES FOR THAT INFORMATION... common knowledge. removed...
 * I added that "citation" tag to prove that exact point. If I had simply deleted it I would have been put under fire from competing editors, so I comprimised. freshofftheufo  ΓΛĿЌ  02:01, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Trey Parker
He is married to a Japanese woman and has studied Japanese, which he has used in South Park. Not sure if he considers himself to be a "Japanophile" though. Shawnc 04:10, 1 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Does "loving Japnese person" count as "having a strong interest in an aspect of Japan"? =D --Sumple (Talk) 00:16, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

See also list
How does hanjian, a word described in the article header as: in Chinese culture, (...) a highly derogatory and pejorative term for a traitor, fit in with this article? Linking it here reeks of POV, if not even Chinese nationalism.

Also, for all the good work done on this article to cleanse the word of neologistic pejorative meanings, the Asiaphile article linked to in See also is still nothing but a biased bashing ground. If anything, Asiaphile is the article meriting deletion as a neologism, not this one. TomorrowTime 17:11, 19 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Since nobody seems to have a good argument for including hanjian, I'm deleting it.


 * Also, I think stating examples in the "fans of a particular aspect of Japanese culture" is a slippery slope. The list has already brought us the distinct pleasure of having anime, manga AND J-pop included. With all due respect, somebody with interest in J-pop can hardly be considered a Japanophile. Unless we are talking about a sociologist, specialised in a very particular aspect of a culture, that is. Just knowing who Ayumi Hamasaki is does NOT make one a Japanophile. Lafcadio Hearn's corpse could probably be used as an alterantive energy source, what with all the turning in the grave it must be doing right now. I'm deleting the examples. TomorrowTime 02:25, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe it should say "fans of a particular aspect of traditional Japanese culture". I can't believe hanjian was linked on here for so long without anyone noticing it. Dekimasu 04:32, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't know... That would be implying that somebody who is interested in traditional aspects is in some way superior to someone who is interested in the more popular aspects. Besides I'm not entirely sure if fans per se even merit inclusion. If we are operating with the notion that a Japanophile is someone with a strong interest in Japan and it's culture as a whole, then somebody who is a fan of a small fragment of that culture might not even be a Japanophile. On the other hand, I've known people who have gone from simply being interested in anime or martial arts to becoming students and eventually scholars of Japanese studies and have gained a wider appreciation for Japan.
 * But this view is, of course, debatable. TomorrowTime 09:21, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Korean wave & British invasion
I disagree with the inclusion of Korean wave and British invasion in the see also list and have deleted them for the time being. A passing interest in a fashionable country does not a countryphile make. TomorrowTime 02:25, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Wapanese redirects here...
...as I've noticed. It has, since July 2006. As we've in the meantime established that Japanophile and Wapanese are not necesarily synonims, I believe that to be a bad redirect. I don't seem to have the authority to revert the redirect (it's been protected), so I hereby ask somebody on an admin level to do it. The former Wapanese article is no gem, but it's closer to the actual meaning of the word as this one. TomorrowTime 20:20, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

#1 most common reason
is the #1 most common reason the cause of Anime?--Takaomi I. Shimoi 16:34, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah. I hear Donald Keene is an unsatiable anime fiend...TomorrowTime 22:17, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Japanese Media Origin Strictly Japanese
Any media of Japanese origin - either anime, manga, MADs -- are generally considered Japanese only. This implies that only the Japanese can produce such media forms. Particularly, with anime and manga, disputes exist trying to determine if such a view is accurate. For example, who can create manga? Can it be just the Japanese? KyuuA4 19:27, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * 1. Please add new bulletins at the bottom of the page.
 * 2. I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to say and how it ties in with the article at hand. TomorrowTime 18:34, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Lee Teng-hui's mysterious disappearance
Why exactly was the following:
 * Notable Japanophiles in politics include Lee Teng-hui, a former President of the Republic of China, who was educated under Japanese colonial rule and has claimed to be "one-half Japanese." In 2005, members of the Taiwan Solidarity Union, a political party in Taiwan, visited the Yasukuni Shrine, resulting in some controversy.

taken out of the article? Is it factually wrong? A delicate matter? I'm asking out of curiosity, I don't really see why this shouldn't be included. It's mentioned in Lee Teng-hui. Why not here? Is there a good reason? If nobody speaks up, I'll probably reintroduce it into the article at some point.

Also, what exactly about this article is not sourced, and which parts need clearing up? TomorrowTime 01:08, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Article rehash
Ok, I've gone through the article and rewrote it in some places. First of all, since nobody spoke up regarding the OR and verify tags, I deleted them. Also, I threw out Nipponophile, as it doesn't seem to be backed up by any serious sources, and is more than likely just a insignificant neologism (if I'm wrong, please correct me). Since nobody seems to have a good reason for not having Lee Teng-hui in the article as an example of a Japanophile politician, I readded him. I was considering readding the blurb about Asian Japanophile population (at least in the new meaning of the word it exists, sure enough), but I figure the phrase 'around the world' automaticaly encorporates that as well, so I let that be.

Also, I notice that a heap of misunderstandings regarding this article arises from people having different notions about what the word actually means. There are two meanings - one denotes a scholar of things Japanese or a politician with a liking for Japan and her cause, and the other, more recent one is more or less a synonim with otaku. I have attempted to represent both these meanings in the rewritten article. Any constructive suggestions, additions or rewordings are more than welcome. TomorrowTime 21:04, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Interesting article, but what are the sources? Kaitenbushi 10:32, 18 September 2007 (UTC)