Talk:Jarash, Jerusalem

Typo
The SWP-index notes that this place occur in   pp.467 - 468. However, that is clearly wrong: those pages are about Jerash. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 17:55, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Josephus and the Gerasa of Judea
Huldra, I am in disagreement with you over your recent removal of an important edit. The age of our author is irrelevant, as no one objects to these assertions, just as they are plainly known to anyone who reads the contemporary history of those times. Our wording, nonetheless, was very careful, as we only named the village by the name which it was known by in Judea and which was raided by Roman forces, and which, according to Josephus, sent a message to those insurgents in Jerusalem. The village Jarash may have been that village, and therefore it remains a viable historical reference worthy of this article's attention. If you wish, after the edit has been restored, you may add that Dr. Simchoni's identification is still tentative.Davidbena (talk) 21:46, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but "may have been that village" just isn't good enough. So many places in the area had the similar sounding names, what you are doing seems very much like WP:OR to me, Huldra (talk) 21:57, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Well, I disagree, since - as you very-well know - historical geography is not infallible, but they propose certain sites as representing historical sites. Therefore, we can add that Dr. Simchoni's conclusions are still tentative. Try being more open to ideas, especially those coming from academics. What other places do you know about with a similar name? I can think of only one other site, but even so, its name is "Jurish" (near Mata), not exactly Gerash, but when I visited there, it was no where near a large village in terms of its size. Again, I never said that this is definitely the same village mentioned by Josephus. What I am saying is that a village by that name was involved in the Jewish-Roman war.Davidbena (talk) 22:05, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
 * People have speculated for hundreds of years about the locations of ancient times...so we end up with rather ridicules situations like Shuafat, which is though to be no less than 3 Biblical cities. Lol.
 * Actually, why don't you translate the Simchoni article into en.wp? That would be a far more "worthy" cause than this, Huldra (talk) 22:23, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Your suggestions are commendable, but here we're dealing specifically with this article and with the country's ancient Jewish history. I don't know why I get the impression when trying to edit on historical topics that some people here may be trying, in a subtle manner, to divorce Israel's connection to the land. Again, we have found historical geographers and archaeologists disputing the identity of certain sites, such as the biblical Giloh, the biblical Gath, the biblical Ekron, Timnah, etc. etc., but this does not hamper us on Wikipedia from recording these individual views.Davidbena (talk) 00:03, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Your revert is not acceptable, a "tentative" suggestion by a scholar who died 92 years ago simply isn't enough, IMO. Huldra (talk) 20:43, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
 * P.S. - the work written by that scholar who died 92 years ago is still widely used and studied by academics here, in Israel. No one that I know of has refuted has refuted his opinion.Davidbena (talk) 22:45, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Huldra, you are not permitted to revert until 24 hours have passed. Please self-revert. I will add the tentative remark: "Jarash's identification with the Gerasa of Josephus is, however, only a tentative identification."Davidbena (talk) 20:46, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Eh, no...I did not add the text, you did. So you were the original author, and could not revert until 24 hrs after my revert (which you didn't, so that is ok), Huldra (talk) 20:57, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Perhaps there is something that I do not understand here. We'll ask User:Zero0000 to clarify the matter for us. As I recall, no one is permitted to revert an edit within 24-hours, except his own edit. A history of this page will show that I made an edit and it was reverted by you here. I waited 24 hours before reverting your revert (i.e. restoring the original edit), as you can see here. Within the space of 4 minutes, you turned around and, again, reverted my edit, as you can see here. Is this not an infraction of Wikipedia's rules of 1RR / 24 hours? If so, I cordially ask you to self-revert.Davidbena (talk) 21:27, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Please ask Zero (or any other admin); my last edit to the page was 20:12, 15 November 2018‎, then today at  20:40, 17 November 2018‎, which is more than 24 hrs later. (If I had added the stuff, it would have been different...that is what we are discussing over at Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment‎ at the moment). To the best of my knowledge, none of us have broken the rules at the moment, Huldra (talk) 21:34, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
 * So, theoretically, this is your first edit within 24 hours, and it has yet to be reverted by anyone. This means that I can revert your edit without fear of reprisals, and we'd be forced to either discuss the issue or wait another 24 hours.Davidbena (talk) 21:40, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
 * No, since your last edit was at 20:36, 17 November 2018, if you revert me within 24 hrs, you will be breaking the 24 hr rule. Huldra (talk) 21:44, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
 * This sounds like Gaming the system to me.Davidbena (talk) 21:57, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
 * No, Davidbena, this was the exact purpose of the last ARCA tweaks: we err on the side of the present. Ie, if you want anything new into wp, and one other editor object, then it doesn't get into wp. That is: in one-to-one situation "status quo" wins, Huldra (talk) 22:06, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Well, that would be fine and dandy if the edit was done in good faith and without ulterior motives. However, there is reason here to suspect an ulterior motive, based on trends which I've seen in other articles relating to ancient Israelite history, and where you reverted important information relating to Israel's history in those articles, such as Bi'ina (see here) and Beit Jala (see here). Anyone looking at your edits will get the clear impression that, for reasons unbeknownst to me, you are seeking to minimize the evidence of Israel's ancient history in some of these places here in the land. I hope that I'm wrong, and perhaps it may take more time to see the full picture that emerges from your edit history.Davidbena (talk) 22:35, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

Davidbena, I make mistakes, but I stand 100% behind those two edits above. In the first, the main Beth-Anath info should go into that article, (and not the Bi'ina article.) As for the Beit Jala stuff: that was plainly wrong. If you had "walked" in the footsteps of Victor Guérin, (see User:Huldra/Guerin), then you would have seen that the place he described (in the pages I removed from the Beit Jala article) was actually at Jala, Hebron, not  Beit Jala! Yes: I try to minimize wrong information on Wikipedia, that I admit! Huldra (talk) 22:55, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
 * To the best of my knowledge, the "Giloh" location is still contended by historical geographers. In fact, you reverted an edit that made known the fact that Beit Jala is a disputed location for Giloh. Why? As for Bi'ina, you objected to any mention of its ancient-most history before there was any article written about Beth Anath.Davidbena (talk) 23:18, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
 * For Bi'ina, I took it straight to Talk:Bi'ina, suggesting that it should go into Beth-Anath (which was just a redirect back then.)  If you look at  Beth Anath now, don't you honestly think that it a better solution?  As for Beit Jala ...see Talk:Beit_Jala: the reference to  Beit Jala as Biblical "Giloh" is based on a misunderstanding of Guerin. In fact, both Guerin and  David Noel Freedman/Allen C. Myers thought it was Jala, Hebron, Huldra (talk) 23:39, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, of course, I think the article Beth Anath is better than anything which touched on those issues before. You and I, both, worked collaboratively on that article. Still, you must remember that when you initially deleted this vital information, there was no such article. Anyway, everything turned out for the best, but we should not repeat our mistakes.Davidbena (talk) 23:55, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
 * As for Beit Jala, many historical geographers after Guerin have still held the opinion that Beit Jala was the biblical Giloh. You may wish to look at the German scholar, Georg Kampffmeyer, Alte Namen im heutigen Palästina und Syrien, Leipzig 1892, p. 22 (section 4), among others.Davidbena (talk) 00:02, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
 * When I cut down the info about Bi'ina being  Beth Anath, it was partly because I had seen claims in the Ain Aata article that it also was Beth Anath(!). To me it is ludicrous when half a dozen (or, to be more precise: 4) places claim to be the same Biblical place, then to put the claim into one of them as if it is unopposed.
 * As for Beit Jala: take a look again: the two references I removed (that is: Guerin and Freedman/Myers) both referred to Jala, Hebron in the Hebron Governorate, just as I stated in the edit line. If other sources claim that  Beit Jala is biblical Giloh...well, then please point out to me where I removed those sources, before you throw out claims that I am "seeking to minimize the evidence of Israel's ancient history in some of these places here in the land",  Huldra (talk) 20:22, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Huldra, for this reason Wikipedia has posted guidelines for us to follow whenever we come across divergent views. We usually follow the one with the greatest consensus and WP:Due weight. You may have been correct about Beit Jala and the meager references that were posted in that article. I will further examine the matter when I go to the Hebrew University next week. You are the judge of your own motives, and, if they are right, keep up the good work!Davidbena (talk) 21:23, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Request for Comment
There is a discussion between two editors on whether or not this article's history section should contain any mention of what the 1st-century historian, Josephus, wrote about a site in Judea called Gerasa (Hebrew: Jarash), distinct from Jerash (Gerasa) in Transjordan, and whose inhabitants were involved in the war against the Roman army in Judea, in roughly anno 65 of our Common era. The article, Jarash, is thought by one editor to have possibly been connected to the reference made by Josephus, and wants to include a reference of the episode in the history section of Jarash..Davidbena (talk) 23:31, 17 November 2018 (UTC)


 * David, this is not a properly presented RfC. It is supposed to consist of a neutrally-worded question. After that you can begin a discussion section with your own opinion. Your opinion is not supposed to appear in the RfC itself. Please consider separating your opinion from what is above and inserting it instead below the discussion heading. If you do that, you can delete this comment. Zerotalk 02:27, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Okay, I'll try separating my personal views from the main gist of my RfC.Davidbena (talk) 09:02, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Since there was one Israeli author, Dr. Jacob N. Simchoni, who specifically pointed out the fact that this Gerasa (Hebrew: Jarash) mentioned by Josephus was in Judea, and since there happens to be only one site known to us by that name in Judea (to the best of my knowledge), can we mention the likelihood of its connection with the town in question? Albeit, since we have no way of knowing for certain that this article which treats on the site known as Jarash (in Judea) is, in fact, the same place mentioned by Josephus, is there a place to simply mention its name as a possible connection to Josephus' Gerasa (Hebrew: Jarash), without specifying that it is a definitive identification? To that end, we can simply say that the identification is still tentative. Thus, the suggested edit in the history section would read:
 * During the Jewish uprising against Rome in 65 CE, a place called Gerasa (Ǧeraš / גרש) in Judea (distinguished from Jerash in Transjordan) was overrun by the troops of Vespasian, who taking the town, slew of its able-bodied men, and took captive their families. Afterwards, the Roman soldiers with their auxiliaries proceeded to set fire to their houses and to the houses in the adjoining villages, until war had gone through all the mountainous country. Although Jarash bears a common name with the historical site mentioned by Josephus, the identification of Jarash with Gerasa remains uncertain and unclear.


 * In order to mention the possibility of this Jarash being a Judaean Gerasa, we need a reliable source making that connection. (We also need agreement that it is reliable enough, but let's start with the part that is mandated by policy.) If I understand David correctly, Simchoni judged a Gerasa mentioned by Josephus as being in Judaea. But the identification of Gerasa-in-Judaea as being the location in this article seems to be David's opinion based on "there happens to be only one site known to us by that name in Judea". This is a clear case of original research. We don't put our own guesses into articles. As it happens, there is more recent research on this: Avi-Yonah considers this Gerasa to be Jurish 180/167. Tsafrir has the same opinion, though calling it in Samaria. Zerotalk 02:57, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

TO ALL CONCERNED: Folks, it is my solemn wish to withdraw this RfC, until I am able to come up with a more concrete source that connects this village (now ruin) known as Jarash with the references of a similar village by name mentioned in Josephus.Davidbena (talk) 11:44, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
 * - could you present a quote from the source supporting the connection? In as much as this passes WP:V this should be included, but I would prefer to see a clear quote. Icewhiz (talk) 06:31, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
 * User:Zero0000 and User:Icewhiz, I agree that it is far better to have a source that makes the connection, so this will entail more research. Avi-Yonah's opinion is a respectable one. The problem with this view, however, based on the grid that you mentioned, is that the site is in Samaria, and the name is not Jarash (as clearly written by Simchoni, based on its Hebrew phonetics), but Jurish. There is also also another ruin called "Jurish" near Tzur Hadassah, and when I visited the site there I saw kokhim (Burial shafts) carved into solid rock, clearly from an ancient period. With respect to our article's Jarash, I suspect that I can find its mention in one of either two works written by Samuel Klein, such as in his seminal work Sefer Ha-Yishuv, under the entry גרש (Gerasa), or in his other work entitled "Eretz Yehudah" (Tel-Aviv 1939). This research will have to wait until I go back to the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. Its mention may have also been made by Isaiah Press, the editor of an important encyclopedia on historical sites in Israel, or else by Peter Thomsen, in his Loca Sancta, Leipzig 1907 (reprinted in Hildesheim 1966), or by the renowned scholar, H. Hildesheimer, in his work entitled Beiträge zur Geographie Palästinas (Contributions to the geography of Palestine).Davidbena (talk) 09:38, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
 * , what is your brief and neutral statement? Have a look at on the RfC listings, and remember that Legobot copies everything from the  template down to the first timestamp. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 09:49, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Strike that, the issue has largely been addressed in the last few minutes. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 09:52, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
 * (Edit conflict) David, Jerash and Jurish are almost the same in Arabic, and they are less than 50km apart. Avi-Yonah and Tsafrir were both specialists in identification, and they had an advantage over older authors of knowing something of the archaeological evidence. Josephus doesn't say it was in Judaea, that is just the theory of Simchoni that Avi-Yonah and Tsafrir reject. Incidentally, I'll tell you the sources they give.
 * Avi-Yonah: Bulletin of the Jewish Palestine Exploration Society, 1950,30./29-31 (a Hebrew article of Avi-Yonah), and Shalem, Kirjath Sefer, XVII,172, Hebrew.
 * Tsafrir (whose sources may or may not support the identification): Guerin, Samarie II, p.13; Pedrizet, Revue Biblique (Paris) 9 (1900), p. 434; FM Abel, Géographie de la Palestine II, p. 322 (Gerasa 3); AH Schalit, Namenwörterbuch zu Flavius Josephus, s.v. Gerasa 2; E. Schürer, A History of the Jewish People in the Age of Jesus Christ I (1973), p. 499, n. 71 & II (1979), p150, n. 348; C. Moller and G. Schmitt, Siedlungen Palästinas nach Flavius Josephus, pp. 72-73. (It seems like Schalit is an important one to consult; I have access to all of them, but not immediately.) Zerotalk 12:02, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Gerasa (Jarash) during the Roman period
User:Zero0000, User:Icewhiz, User:Huldra, and to all others, we are in luck! Although I am still in the early stages of my research, upon writing two Israeli archaeologists (Ze'ev Safrai and Boaz Zissu) about the subject of Gerasa (Jarash) during the Roman occupation of Judea, I received replies from both archaeologists. They assured me that research has been conducted in this matter, and I was directed by Professor Boaz Zissu of the Department of Land of Israel Studies and Archaeology at Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, to his Academia list here. If you scroll down, you will see an article entitled Zissu B., 2007. "Identification of Gerasa in Judea". In: Y. Eshel (ed.). Judea and Samaria Research Studies 16. Ariel. pp. 219-230 (Hebrew). I have not yet read the article, but have downloaded it. Hopefully, tonight I will read it. I have also ordered a dozen or so books from the Hebrew University library in Jerusalem, which will help us understand more about this subject. Unfortunately, I will not be in Jerusalem until this coming Sunday. Patience pays off.Davidbena (talk) 18:21, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Davidbena: I have now updated Jurish with the two sources Zero gave us (Avi-Yonah and Tsafrir), in addition to Finkelstein et al, 1997, p. 759. The Finkelstein ref has many more refs (Safrai 1980:52; Fuks 1987:145-146), but it looks pretty consistent with the rest. Huldra (talk) 21:25, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks very much, Huldra. I will work on these articles more, once I've collected all information. BTW: Boaz Zissu's treatise on Gerasa deals specifically with only two villages in Judea, Jarash (of this article) and Jurish (now a ruin) near Tzur Hadassa, and he gives plausible reasons why the Gerasa of Josephus cannot be in Samaria, making note of the chronological order of the Roman conquest of Jewish insurgent towns. Again, thanks!Davidbena (talk) 21:37, 19 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Well, Israel Finkelstein writes about Jurish (1997, p. 759): "Scholars identify this place with Gerasa, birth-place of the zealot leader Shimeon Bar-Giora, which was destroyed by Vespasianus (Jos. Antiq. 13:10:2-275; Wars 4:8:1-478, 4:9:3-503) and possible place of origin of Joshua the Gerasene (Masekheth Soferim 1:2; Midrash of Probers 9:3). See Avi-Yonah 1976:61; Safrai 1980:52; Fuks 1987:145-146."
 * So he seem pretty certain about it. We will never know for sure, though, so I have written that "it has been suggested", etc. It is interesting to note, however, that Byzantine sherds were completely absent from Jurish, which might indeed indicate a destruction in Roman times, Huldra (talk) 21:46, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Zissu mentions all the conflicting views and analyzes each. We might need to bring down a brief summary of the different views, since each has its own merit. Safrai, by the way, places Gerasa in the Jurish near Tzur Hadassa (not in Samaria), since the village was situated directly along the old Roman road that leads from Jerusalem to Beit Gubrin.Davidbena (talk) 21:54, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
 * P.S. - Zissu points out that the only reason Finkelstein places Gerasa in Samaria is because Josephus makes note of the fact that Shimeon Bar-Giora was born in a town called Gerasa, and since he captured areas in Samaria (namely, Akrabat), it was thought that he captured the areas that were closest to his homeland. So far Zissu. What this logic fails to point out is that Shimeon Bar-Giora also captured all the region south of Jerusalem (known as Upper Idumea), which would include the Gerasa in Judea. Furthermore, according to Zissu, the toparchy of Akrabat (Acrabatenne) and the region adjoining thereto (i.e. Jurish of Samaria) were only subdued after Vespasian's forces completed the encirclement of Jerusalem and erected citadels in Jericho and in Adida, and had destroyed Gerasa in Judea, based on the timeline of events in Josephus, The Jewish War 4:487 and 4:550–551 (see Zissu, Judea and Samaria Research Studies, [ed.] Dr. Ya'acov Eshel, p. 220).Davidbena (talk) 22:02, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Well, it is not the only reason...as, say, Avi-Yonah (1976) and Tsafrir (1994)  also both had placed it there. And the conquest of areas south of Jerusalem happened later in his life, what he became first famous for seem to be his behaviour in  Acrabbene/Akrabat. Huldra (talk) 22:17, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Finkelstein was merely following Avi-Yonah's conclusions.Davidbena (talk) 23:02, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Nah, from what I have read of the "Highlands of many cultures", Finkelstein doesn't really "merely follow" anyone. He looks at previous info, if it fits with his archeological findings then he lets it stands, if not: he doesn't give 2 cents to throw it out. Huldra (talk) 23:31, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
 * That may also be the case. Even so, a good archaeologist should take everything into account, including the timeline of events. I will speak more about this later.Davidbena (talk) 03:13, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I'll need to review the order of these events as recorded in Josephus. Anyway, what we are in agreement about is that there are conflicting views.Davidbena (talk) 22:21, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Yesterday's Findings
Fellow editors, User:Zero0000, User:Icewhiz, and User:Huldra, last night I returned from the Hebrew University Library in Jerusalem where I sat down and read several outstanding works written by archaeologists and scholars on the subject of Gerasa’s identification, a town described by Josephus, in The Jewish War (4.9.1). First, let it be known that in the absence of any oral tradition, it makes these identifications only tentative, with one suggestion having merely a greater likelihood or probability over another suggestion, for the reasons here to be explained. Without further ado, these are my findings:


 * Archaeologist Boaz Zissu brings down two options for the Gerasa of Josephus (ibid.), reaching the conclusion that the site in question is to be searched for in Judea, rather than in Samaria. He names, specifically, two sites that still embody the name of Gerasa (Heb. Ǧerash), the one being Jarash, Jerusalem, and the other Kh. Jurish (near Tzur Hadassa), both sites being distant 6 km. from each other as the crow flies. Both sites have been surveyed by Zissu and both sites date back to the Second Temple period and earlier. Zissu gave his professional assessment that of these two sites, the most likely contender for the Gerasa of Josephus (ibid.) is the ruin now known as Kh. Jurish, near Tzur Hadassa and moshav Mata. Insofar as these two sites are concerned, he directly connects them to the Gerasa mentioned by Jacob N. Simchoni (1884-1926), in The History of the War of the Jews with the Romans, Masada publishers: Ramat-Gan 1968, p. 545, s.v. גרש(b) (Hebrew, reprint of 1923 edition), and where he cites Josephus (The Jewish War 4.9.1).
 * (a) Zissu rejects Avi-Yonah's findings (and by extension, those of Israel Finkelstein) who both place the Gerasa of Josephus (The Jewish War, 4.9.1) in Jurish of Samaria, saying that the only reason Avi-Yonah places Gerasa in Samaria is because Josephus makes note of the fact that Shimeon Bar-Giora was born in a town called Gerasa, and since he captured areas in Samaria (namely, Akrabat), it was thought that he captured the areas that were closest to his homeland. So far Zissu. What this logic fails to point out is that Shimeon Bar-Giora also captured all the region south of Jerusalem (known as Upper Idumea), which would include the Gerasa in Judea.
 * (b) Secondly, according to Zissu, the toparchy of Akrabat (Acrabatenne) and the region adjoining thereto (i.e. Jurish of Samaria) were only subdued after Vespasian's forces completed the encirclement of Jerusalem and erected citadels in Jericho and in Adida, and had destroyed Gerasa in Judea, based on the timeline of events in Josephus, The Jewish War 4:487 and 4:550–551 (see Zissu, Judea and Samaria Research Studies, [ed.] Dr. Ya'acov Eshel, p. 220).
 * (c) Zissu also rejects the opinion of Thackeray (1928: 145), the translator and editor of Josephus' The Jewish War in the Loeb Classical Library, who thought that Gerasa was to be identified with the Gerasa (Jerash) of Transjordan. The reason for this rejection is that Zissu concludes there (Zissu, Judea and Samaria Research Studies, [ed.] Dr. Ya'acov Eshel, p. 219) that the Jewish inhabitants of Gerasa in Transjordan had already been allowed to take leave of that place at the beginning of the revolt and prior to the taking of the other Gerasa, as described by Josephus in The Jewish War, 2: 480.


 * Archaeologist Ze'ev Safrai, at first, placed the Gerasa of Josephus (ibid.) in Samaria, like his predecessors (Safrai, Boundaries and Government in the Land of Israel [גבולות ושלטון בארץ ישראל], Tel-Aviv 1980, p. 54 [note 16]), but later that same year he came to a different conclusion, saying that it is to be recognised in the Kh. Jurish (near Tzur Hadassa), just as it was concluded by Boaz Zissu (Safrai, "Conquest of the Mountainous Region", in: Jerusalem in the Second Temple Period - Abraham Schalit Memorial Volume [פרקים בתולדות ירושלים בימי בית שני - ספר זיכרון לאברהם שליט], ed. A. Oppenheimer, U. Rappaport, & M. Stern, Ben-Zvi Institute, Jerusalem 1980/81, p. 327 ISBN 965-217-000-3. The reason for this change of heart is explained by Safrai as follows (which mostly are the same reasons as described by Zissu):
 * (a) Safrai rejects the opinion that the Gerasa of Josephus (The Jewish War 4.9.1) is to be recognised in Gerasa of Transjordan, the reason being that Gerasa of Transjordan, he says, was already subdued by the 15th Legion prior to the conquest of the Gerasa in The Jewish War (4.9.1), and with an expulsion of its Jewish citizens.
 * (b) Safrai also rejects the opinion of those who seek to say that an error befell the copyist of the Josephus manuscript and that Gerasa should rather be read as Gezer, saying that this too is impossible, since Gezer was already subdued prior to the capture of Gerasa (ibid. 4.9.1), and that a Roman camp was stationed in Emmaus (near Gezer).
 * (c) Safrai also rejects the view that Gerasa (ibid.) was to be identified with Gerasa (Jurish) of Samaria, but this runs contrary to the sequel of events described by Josephus, who places the conquest of the toparchy of Acrabattene (which includes Jurish) after the fall of Gerasa.
 * (d) Safrai points out that since the military stratagem of the Roman army was to encircle Jerusalem with the stationing of garrisons in Jericho, Adida and Gerasa, while the regions further north and south of these aforenamed places were taken later by the Romans, it stands to reason, therefore, that "we are to look for Gerasa to the west of the city [Jerusalem], upon the junction of one of the well-traveled roads." He concludes that this place is most likely Kh. Jurish (near Tzur Hadassa) and which town was once spread out over 40-50 dunams, and lay upon a hilltop near the ancient Roman road leading from Jerusalem to Beit Gubrin, via the Elah valley (Safrai, "Conquest of the Mountainous Region", in: Jerusalem in the Second Temple Period - Abraham Schalit Memorial Volume [פרקים בתולדות ירושלים בימי בית שני - ספר זיכרון לאברהם שליט], ed. A. Oppenheimer, U. Rappaport, & M. Stern, Ben-Zvi Institute, Jerusalem 1980/81, p. 329).


 * Avi-Yonah (Gazetteer of Roman Palestine, Qedem - Monographs of the Institute of Archaeology [5], vol. 2, Jerusalem 1976, pp. 61, 109) holds that Gerasa (ibid.) is to be identified with Gerasa (Jurish) of eastern Samaria. This view is also held by Israel Finkelstein (Highlands of Many Cultures, Tel-Aviv University, Tel-Aviv 1997, p. 759 ISBN 965-440-007-3). These views, however, are rejected by Zissu and Safrai for the reasons given above.


 * Yoram Tsafrir, Leah Di Segni and Judith Green (Tabula Imperii Romanii: Iudaea, Palaestina [Maps and Gazetteer], The Israel Academy of Sciences and Humanities, Jerusalem 1994, p. 133) only devote two entries for Gerasa; one in Samaria and the other in the Negev, while overlooking entirely the ruins by that name in Judea. They connect Josephus' reference to a place by that name (Jos. Bell. iv, 503 [4.9.1]) with the site in Samaria (i.e. Jurish).


 * Anonymous author ("Bibliography - Patterns of Eretz Yisrael", in: Kiryat Sefer [17] (Quarterly Journal), Jerusalem 1940, p. 172), mentions Simchoni, Klein (Sefer Ha-Yishuv, Devir publishers: Tel-Aviv 1939, p. 106, s.v. Γερασα), Klausner and others whom all attest to the fact that Gerasa named by Josephus in The Jewish War (4.9.1) is NOT to be confused with Gerasa in Transjordan, but adds that the site has only been tentatively identified, although he himself is inclined to think that it is Jurish (of Samaria), citing David Benvenisti (1897–1993) who thought likewise.


 * Isaiah Press (Topographical-Historical Encyclopedia of the Land of Israel, vol. 1, Rubin Mass publishers: Jerusalem 1951, p. 174 [s.v. גרש -b]), brings down only two entries for the name גרש, both having the same phonetic sound (i.e. Jerash); the one he places in Transjordan, being the city by that name (Jerash). As for the other, he directly connects it with the town described by Josephus (The Jewish War 4.9.1) and holds that it is to be identified with the village Jarash, Jerusalem, at 3.5 km. distance south of the colony Hartuv (and which, in his days, had a Muslim population of 200 souls). He does not mention the "Jurish" of Samaria, since its phonetics slightly differ.

As for the archaeological features of the two sites described by Zissu, hopefully I'll bring down this information in my next post.Davidbena (talk) 05:12, 26 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Sounds like this could go in attributed, while noting attributed counter-opinion.Icewhiz (talk) 09:57, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree, since we do have conflicting opinions about the matter. At least now we have sources that connect Jarash, Jerusalem with the place explicitly named by the 1st-century historian, Josephus. It is interesting to note that archaeologist, Boaz Zissu, describes Jarash, Jerusalem as a farmstead dating back to the Second Temple period, with perhaps share-croppers who worked the adjacent lands, and that in general scope, the ancient site was considerably smaller than Kh. Jurish near Tzur Hadassa. The old site of Jarash, Jerusalem is actually 200 meters west of the place where the Arab village once stood.Davidbena (talk) 10:16, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
 * David, thanks for your thorough report. I strongly suggest you create an article Gerasa (Judaea) and put the details there. Given that Zissu's conclusion is against this Jarash as being its location, most of the detail does not belong here. It could be mentioned briefly with a wikilink though. Zerotalk 12:05, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree that all the minute details here do not belong in any article, including Jurish, but just like Jurish, we can briefly mention the dissenting views, as stated by Icewhiz. And, yes, I'm thinking about starting a new article with the name Gerasa (Judaea) and which will be built along the same lines as Huldra's article Beth-Anath. There are, however, some specific details about this article, Jarash, Jerusalem, relating to archaeology mentioned by Boaz Zissu, and which can be incorporated in this article.Davidbena (talk) 12:12, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I also agree that this should go into its own article. Alas, as it looks to me as if Gerasa (Judaea) and Gerasa (Samaria) has been mixed up quite bit; perhaps it is best just to expand Gerasa (presently just a redirect to Jerash) in order to cover all the options. (Gerasene and Gerasenes also redir to Jerash) Huldra (talk) 22:13, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
 * We all agree that a separate article should be written about Gerasa (Judaea), but the article Gerasa, which is in Transjordan, is not the place for inserting anything about the events mentioned in The Jewish War (4.9.1), since ALL scholars (except for one) concur that the Gerasa in Transjordan is a different place altogether. There is an opinion that our Jarash, Jerusalem may be the place mentioned by Josephus (namely, the opinion raised by Isaiah Press), but it is by no means conclusive. We are only left with scholarly guesses, including those who say that the Gerasa of Josephus should be identified with Jurish in Samaria. The only real and conclusive data about our Jarash here are the results of the archaeological survey of Jarash, Jerusalem, conducted by IAA archaeologist, Boaz Zissu. I'll shortly add that information.Davidbena (talk) 01:52, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I've just now added the "Archaeology" section to this article. Once we have composed the specific article entitled Gerasa (Judaea), where it will discuss the possibility of its identification with several suggested sites (including our Jarash here), we can make here a wikilink to that article. Any other suggestions?Davidbena (talk) 03:07, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Even if we have a separate article, a brief referenced blurb here containing a wikilink to the separate article would be in order. In the mean time, prior to writing that article, at a minimum the same blurb should be here - either red linked or with no wikilink.Icewhiz (talk) 04:47, 27 November 2018 (UTC)


 * To have a comprehensive article on Gerasa, I think both Jerash, Jurish, this place (Jarash, Jerusalem) and a couple of other places should be included. Avi Younah, p. 61 operates with 3 different Gerasas: Jerash, Jurish, and a place in the Negev, at grid 105/021.
 * I agree that present scholars do not seem to think that Jerash was the Gerasa of Simon bar Giora, but non the less, that seem to have been the thinking in the 19th century, and quite a while into the 20th century, so to have a comprehensive review that place should also be included. (Take John Kitto, p. 755, where he writes that Jerash is the Gerasa of The Jewish War 4.9.1) Huldra (talk) 22:13, 27 November 2018 (UTC)