Talk:Jazz scale

Classical composers
What are those classical composers doing in the first paragraph? The point of the first paragraph is to point out that a jazz scale is typically nothing more than an ordinary western scale with an additional note inserted to "jazzify" it. The first paragraph should be lean and mean in that sense, not digressing to notable classical composers. 209.90.231.82 (talk) 05:40, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Nahh, its fine. 75.48.22.160 (talk) 01:57, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Recent edit
My recent edit merely corrected what was an oversight, I'm sure. Modes can be presented in relative (same pitch classes) or in parallel terms (same letter-name scale degrees). Both are handy didactic terms and it's easy to confuse them, which is what happened here on the 2nd and 7th degrees: it is the parallel Phrygian #6 and Super Locrian of C melodic minor that take a C7 sus b9 and a C7 #9 b13, respectively, but the rest of the presentation is relative to C melodic minor.

I wonder if it isn't worth pointing out why the ascending melodic minor scale is such a powerful tool: We divide 12 chromatic tones into 7 "letter-name" steps. Assuming no interval greater than the enharmonic equivalent of a major second, that necessarily produces 5 whole steps and 2 half steps (5 x 2) + 2 = 12. There are only three ways to do this:

1. separate the 1/2 steps as much as possible, i.e. by 2 & 3 whole steps (W W H W W W H). This yields the traditional diatonic modes.

2. group the 1/2 steps together (W W W W W H H). This is the enharmonic equivalent of a whole tone scale with one of the half-steps filled in, and yields a set of modes where "minor" sounds and "major" sounds are both present in extremes. (Think of a major scale with b2 and b3, or a Lydian scale with a b6 and b7.)

3. The middle ground:  separate the 1/2 steps by 1 & 4 whole steps (W H W W W W H).

The ascending melodic minor scale is how this last option has traditionally been used. In a minor context, a composer wanted a melody to "rise" to the tonic, via step-wise approach to the leading tone. I don't think it is an accident that this formulation began as a melodic convention and was only much later (and unwittingly) incorporated into a harmonic scheme. We tend to forget that, historically speaking, harmony is a (contrapuntal) emergent property. Sinnis 14:43, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Unreferenced
What in the article needs to be verified or cited? Hyacinth (talk) 03:36, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Question
This is a clean concise wiki page, but I was wondering where you can go from here. I am beginning to learn all the modes of the diatonic major scale, and plan on getting all of the modes of the melodic minor scale under my belt, but I have noticed that there is something I'm not getting about playing these scales. For instance, I can play along to Jamey Aebersold's exercise on random dorian minors, I can even play runs up and down the keyboard for each chord, but it all sounds pretty vanilla. I know in the blues there is always a complementary scale that can be played along side the current key (e.g. playing an A blues over a C7 chord). My main question to anyone who is studying music is:

What are the options one has when improvising a run of notes that spans multiple octaves?

I have tinkered with 1-3-5-7-9-11-13. I have even messed around with playing every other note of pentatonic scales. I just think a complementary page that discusses composing runs would be a valuable piece of wiki knowledge to share with the world. Benum (talk) 16:32, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


 * You can play any note over an chord, providing you emphasize the chord tones, and ideally end your phrase on the tonic or fifth (except when deliberately introducing unresolved tension).82.176.209.52 (talk) 12:22, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Pentatonic scales (section)
"The major pentatonic scale begins with a major scale and omits the fourth and the seventh scale degrees." The C major pentatonic scale may be enharmonically identical to a C major scale with parts missing, but to claim that this is its proper derivation is just wrong. Its notes exist as subsets of many other scales, including C mixolydian and C lydian as the simplest examples. It would be more proper to define it on its own terms as a 5-note scale (a pentatonic scale), not a greater-than-5-notes scale with notes missing. -- Another Stickler (talk) 01:52, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

"The nomenclature, "minor pentatonic scale," minor is employed in the sense of relative key, as the diatonic A minor scale is the relative minor of the diatonic C major scale." There's no reason to claim that the two scales are most properly thought of as existing in relative keys. In fact there are many reasons, especially in jazz and blues, to claim that the major and minor pentatonic scales are used in parallel (on the same root), such as C major pentatonic and C minor pentatonic both being usable over the same C major chord. It wouldn't hurt to point out that C major pentatonic and A minor pentatonic are modally related, but it's not necessary to jump through all the hoops of invoking a major scale, going to the relative minor, and then dropping some parts to end up with a minor pentatonic in a different key; all that needs to be done is start with a C major pentatonic, and modally choose a different tonic (A) for the same pitches, resulting in an A minor pentatonic. -- Another Stickler (talk) 01:52, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

"The minor pentatonic scale replaces the 2nd scale degree with an augmented 4 followed by the fifth and is commonly known as a blues scale." The "blues scale" is a name given to two different scales, first, the minor pentatonic, and second, the 6-note scale enharmonically equivalent to the minor pentatonic plus the tritone (which can be considered an augmented fourth or a diminished fifth), but not the pentatonic scale where the tritone replaces one of the notes of the minor pentatonic. I mean, they're all valid scales, but let's keep the terms straight. -- Another Stickler (talk) 01:52, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, and someone should fix that. Don't feed me that "be bold" nonsense, every time I edit or even post on a talk page I get banned. This needs to go: "The minor pentatonic scale replaces the second scale degree with an augmented 4 followed by the fifth and is commonly known as a blues scale." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.140.166.249 (talk) 21:16, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Blues scale (section)
"The C major blues scale is C D D♯ E G A C ascending or C A G E E♭ D C descending." That's not a C major blues scale, that's a C gospel scale. The C major blues scale has seven notes and is enharmonically equivalent to a C blues scale plus the major third C-Eb-E-F-F#-G-Bb. -- Another Stickler (talk) 02:37, 27 December 2008 (UTC)


 * See blues scale. Hyacinth (talk) 18:34, 10 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I looked. That article shows three "blues" scales, none of which is C D D# E G A. Besides, it's against wikipedia policy to use one article to support another; citations have to be external, like my link to the "gospel" scale above. Another Stickler (talk) 11:33, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Avoid notes
Almost the only time a ♭9 interval is acceptable in jazz voicings is when it's above the root. Therefore, I am reverting the text back to emphasize that avoid notes exist a minor second above another note, as opposed to being above the root. Hearfourmewesique (talk) 07:45, 10 July 2009 (UTC)


 * In addition to emphasizing "above another note" you are also attributing that information to the cited source. This is misleading and incorrect since that information or claim was not in that source. Hyacinth (talk) 18:33, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Avoid note vs. avoid-note
Any reason to prefer one over the other? Hyacinth (talk) 20:29, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The hyphenation is most unnecessary, since it is not a double-worded adjective (chord scales vs. chord-scale system). Even in case of the latter, the hyphen is sometimes optional. Hearfourmewesique (talk) 06:42, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
 * That agrees with WP:MOS. What if "avoid-note" is more commonly used? Hyacinth (talk) 01:24, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It's an adjective followed by a noun a compound noun, not a two-worded adjective that precedes another noun; therefore, hyphenation does not apply. Had an extended expression existed, you could have applied it (i.e. avoid-note method)... but it doesn't. Hearfourmewesique (talk) 09:06, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Compound nouns are sometimes hyphenated too, such as six-pack, but "avoid note" isn't a compound noun or a compound adjective. The word "avoid" is used here as an adjective (derived from a verb) literally meaning "to-be-avoided", and "note" is a noun. An avoid note is a to-be-avoided note. You would treat "avoid" grammatically as you would any other adjective, such as "bad". You wouldn't write "F is a bad-note against a C Maj 7 chord", so you shouldn't write "F is an avoid-note against a C Maj 7 chord." 108.185.45.70 (talk) 05:37, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
 * If "avoid-note" were more common, then it should be used, but it's not more common. "Avoid note" is the standard spelling. 108.185.45.70 (talk) 05:37, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Section links
Though not described at Help:Link, of section links are sensitive to capitalization depending on one's browser (thus you should act as if they are even if they are not for you). Hyacinth (talk) 07:42, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

More Modes derived from the Harmonic Minor
In my first jazz guitar lesson I was recently given guitar tab for the seven diatonic scales drived from Ionian, then the seven derived from the Jazz Melodic Minor, and then also the seven scales - with names - derived from the Harmonic Minor. I'd love to see those added here individually. Thank you for the work so far, great! Stevix (talk) 11:49, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Altered dominant scale
The choice of note names in the illustration and text of the section about the altered dominant scale is unfortunate. The scale must include E to be considered to be of the quality of C dominant. Fb (F flat) is enharmonically the same, and is easy to sight read in the illustration because of all the other flats, but Fb confuses the actual identity of the pitch relative to the chord when explaining the theory. The third of a C7 alt chord is absolutely E, not Fb. Similarly, the sharp nine of a C7 alt chord is absolutely D# (D sharp), not Eb. The true note names of a C altered dominant scale, when written to match the chord sense of each note, instead of bending to the service of sight reading or some other convenience, must be: C, Db, D#, E, F# (or Gb depending on whether you want to call it the sharp eleventh or the flat fifth), G# (or Ab depending on whether you want to call it the sharp fifth or the flat thirteenth), and Bb. 108.185.45.70 (talk) 18:24, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Article should be deleted
There are already articles on all these scales. This is just taking up space. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.182.157.245 (talk) 03:31, 12 March 2014 (UTC)