Talk:Jealousy/Archive 1

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 9 January 2019 and 3 May 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Peer reviewers: Elboyd3.

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Borderline personality disorder
Jealousy is also linked to Borderline personality disorder. Should be added to "psychology" part of article? --Dennis714 (talk) 09:10, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Jealousy, Envy and emotional response
Jealousy is not of its self an emotion, but evokes emotions similar to loss and grief. This is not surprising since “Jealousy typically ... occur when a person believes a valued relationship is being threatened by a rival.” As with the types of bereavement  the responses vary between types and individuals response. There are some 9 coping strategies, some more appropiate than others. Perhaps the first, primative, and most basic reaction (within a marriage) is anger directed at the partner, rather than the threat, and this can have a counter productive affect on the relationship. Yet on the other hand, with a more mature and rational response, it can work to strengthen the partnership or even become a paraphilia (categorized as zelophilia) Psychology or Jealousy,.

Envy involves things, status, status symbols, position, wealth, etc., while jealousy involves relationships. Both envy and jealousy involve a sort of ownership; envy is what you have of what others already have – jealousy is what you have when others are stealing a person or destroying a relationship you have with another. Therefore the response to envy may be, at worst, dissapointment, while the response to jealousy is psychological pain, anger, a sense of injustice, perhaps contain self-deprication as an adequate and satisfactory partner.

Jealousy is a complex emotion that encompasses feelings ranging from fear of abandonment to rage and humiliation. Abraham Faith (talk) 00:01, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

Uh... am I missing something?
Why, in an article that's ostensibly about the general concept of jealousy, are we focusing SOLELY on romantic/sexual/interpersonal jealousy? What about material jealousy? What about situational jealousy? Obviously, quite often when we speak of jealousy we're talking about how I'm jealous of my neighbor's new riding mower, or of my sister's effortless ability to get good grades.

"Jealousy" is not a reasonable title for this article. It should really be filed under "Romantic jealousy" or some such.


 * I am completely revising the article on jealousy. I am breaking it up into several articles, and so it will take me a couple of weeks to complete the revision. You can check my progress at User:Kc62301/Jealousy. With regards to your points:


 * Popular culture often uses the term jealousy as a synonym for envy. Envy is what you are describing above--being envious or desiring that which another person possesses such as a material object or a keen mind or a rich life. However, there are reasons why scientists and philosophers draw distinctions between envy and jealousy. I cover this topic in the upcoming User:Kc62301/Jealousy_definitions article.
 * Jealousy is a reasonable name for this article, with it focus on romantic jealousy, because we have no other word for this kind of jealousy. People don't normally say "You're romantically jealous about her dating that guy." They say, "You're jealous about her dating that guy." The envious feelings and behaviors you describe are better suited for the article on Envy.
 * The article on Envy needs some improvement. Perhaps you might improve it, since you have an interest in envy. Kelly 00:39, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm glad to see you've put a lot of thought into this. I've read your article on definitions of jealousy and I think it's excellent.  Your points about the use of the word are well taken, and I'll have no problems whatsoever with the current article on jealousy once a link to your article on definitions (or a similar article) is featured prominently somewhere near the top.  I also think the current article on Envy is well done.  It's a stub, of course, but it's going in the right direction.


 * I will try to mention the distinction between envy and jealousy in the opening paragraphs of the main Jealousy article (revised version). I hope to release the revised version of the article(s) before I leave for vacation on August 4th. If I miss that deadline, I will definitely have it up before the end of August. It takes a little time to write these articles. :-) Kelly 14:13, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Currently the 'definition' section does not actually clearly define what jealousy is. I wanted to use it as a reference for a non-native English speaker and found that section very lacking. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.171.164.53 (talk) 14:10, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Heinlein
The following was removed:

"The novelist Robert A. Heinlein culminates this view when, in his novel Time Enough for Love, he writes, "A competent and self-confident person is incapable of jealousy in anything. Jealousy is invariably a symptom of neurotic insecurity."

I'm not going to insist the Heinlein quote stay in the article. I personally disagree with him. But society does not teach us how to have sexually open relationships when we are growing up. We usually have to learn about sexually open relationships during adulthood, and many people have found Heinlein an inspiration. Heinlein has influenced the way many people view open relationships and jealousy. It's not that he's an expert. It's that he's been influential through his art. I cited his work as an example of a viewpoint held by some people because his works have inspired people to adopt those very viewpoints.

Jealousy Portal
What's the point of putting a jealousy portal tag on the page when no such portal exists? It's the functional equvalent of a dead link.

Defining Jealousy
The current article begins: Jealousy is an emotion by one who perceives that another person is giving something that he/she wants or feels is due to them (often attention, love, respect or affection) to an alternate. For example, a child will likely become jealous when their parents give sweets to a sibling but not to them. An adult may become jealous if they observe that their lover is flirting with someone else, perceiving a threat to their relationship. While the child's jealousy might be assuaged if they received candy from their parents as well, the jealous lover desires that the affections of their lover be directed exclusively to themselves and would not be assuaged by an equal share of attention.

This is mostly correct. However, two corrections seem in order.

First, most social scientists agree that jealousy consists of the cognitive, emotional, and behavioral responses to the threat of a rival. Jealousy is not simply an emotion, like anger or fear. It is multidimensional. This is actually a critical point, because people show considerable variation in how they express jealousy, and variations in how they express jealousy influence the reactions of their partners and the outcomes of their relationships. I think some mention should be made of jealousy involving thoughts, feelings, and behaviors.

Second, the idea that jealous lovers want affections directed exclusively to themselves is not always true. Some couples agree to sexually non-monogamous relationships. The partners in these couples do not want desires and affections directed exclusively towards themselves. Yet, sexually open couples experience jealousy. The threat of jealousy is not the loss of exclusivity, but the loss of the quality or stability (i.e., longevity) of a valued relationship. I think the paragraph should be changed to talk about threat to relationship quality and stability rather than desire for sexual monogamy (which is a related but different issue).

If there are no objections in the next few days, I would like to implement these changes.

Kelly

Deleted material
1. Jealousy comprises a form of the deadly sin of envy, but implies a feeling of personal claim which is not present in envy, as well as the requirement of a third person. [I deleted this yesterday, before I learned how to sign my entries. Deirdre Golash 00:13, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)]

2. It seems that jealousy is predicated on a sense of loss, which may be feared or actual, real or fantasized. It may be the direct loss of a possession, in which case no third party is involved. Or it may be the perceived (or feared) loss of affection where the beloved bestows affection (or signs of affection) on a third party. Jealousy is most acute where one sees oneself as in competition with the third party for the affection of the beloved, especially where it appears that the third party has a competitive advantage.

The sense of loss that underlies jealousy may give rise to a complex admixture of emotions, depending on other evaluative factors. Perception of the loss as grave and irreversible will result in grief; anger will result if the subject sees the loss as undeserved and (at least internally) demands that it be reversed; fear will also be present insofar as the subject projects the loss into the future. A sense (or fear) of betrayal will result if the loss implies a breach of trust. The emotional sub-components of jealousy are thus dependent on the particular circumstances in which it arises, as well as the perceptions of the subject.


 * I realized that the above (which I wrote) violates the "Original Research" prohibition. Deirdre Golash 21:57, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Deletion of Bible Verses
The etymology of the word jealousy is not related to Hebrew, and the Greek origins of the word jealousy preceed the translation of the Old and New Testaments into Greek. Therefore, Bible verses are not relevant to the etymology of the word jealousy. If someone would like to write a section on Religion and jealousy, that would be a more suitable place for Bible verses. However, the Wikipedia NPOV policy would require that other religious views of jealousy also be discussed. kc62301

biblical views should not be withheld for lack of an alternative religious view, also, the biblical view is an alternative to all other views, non religious as well as religious. religious views should not be put in their own category of view type when discussing NPOV policy. Rds865 (talk) 04:20, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Defining Jealousy
Because jealousy is complex, and different people have their own interests with respect to jealousy, we could argue forever about what constitutes the best definition. I created a section noting that people define jealousy different ways, that these definitions share some basic themes, and that jealousy can be distinguished from other phenomena such as envy. I moved the etymology to the very beginning of the article, next to the initial definition. kc62301

Proposal for Expanding the Article

 * Given the lack of discussion on my proposal for expanding the article, I am going to begin the expansion following the July 4th holiday.
 * I plan to add sufficient material to create several related articles. The Jealousy article will contain a very brief introduction to jealousy, followed by sections providing descriptions and links to the related articles. Please see the Monogamy article and the Attachment theory article for examples.
 * The related articles will include the following:
 * Definitions of jealousy - explaining why various definitions have been offered, giving some examples from scientists and dictionaries, and distinguishing jealousy from envy
 * Models of jealousy - briefly reviews several different models of jealousy proposed by investigators.
 * Psychology of jealousy - describe the various experiences of jealousy (thoughts and feelings, including the information on sexual arousal now in the Paraphilia section), describe the various behavioral responses to jealousy, and identify several psychological factors associated with jealousy.
 * Sociology of jealousy - this will be the current sociology of jealousy for now. I will come back and expand this section if I have time.
 * Coping with jealousy - talk about emotional regulation processes, review clinical approaches to dealing with jealousy, describe practical exercises used in cognitive therapy, and provide links to additional readings of practical value.


 * I will create drafts in my user space so people can review and comment before the revisions are put in place. Please go to User:Kc62301/Jealousy to see the proposed revisions. kc62301

Revision July 26, 2006

 * I have exercised the Wikipedia philosophy of being bold and made major revisions to the jealousy article.
 * The topic of jealousy is broad enough for several articles. Reorganizing the main page to summarize the various articles will help readers find the information they seek more easily. It will also allow contributors to write new articles on open marriage and easily integrate them into the new page. This strategy has gone over well with the Monogamy article and the Attachment theory article, and it has recently been implemented for the Open marriage article as well.
 * I released the articles a little early due to my upcoming vacation. I will continue to polish and improve the articles after my vacation.
 * I have some unfinished articles in the works on User:Kc62301/Jealousy psychology, User:Kc62301/Jealousy sociology, User:Kc62301/Jealousy biology, and User:Kc62301/Jealousy art. I will complete all these articles and release them by September 30th. The article on Jealousy in art will be a stub much like the article on jealousy in religion. Kelly 07:38, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

The emotions and close relationships links on the side of the page make the page look clogged up.137.219.151.236 02:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Two suggestions
I have tried to contact 'Kelly', but without luck. In this article, and specifically where it discusses the contrast with 'envy', I am missing the utter brief explanation: envy --> 2 people jealousy --> 3 people Furthermore, I find the book titled Jealousy, by Nancy Friday, is worth mentioning. Tristan Laurillard 02:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Defining Jealousy (Again)
The current definition for jealousy in this article is not accurate; it describes envy. Let us be clear about the distinction between jealousy and envy. If I am distressed that someone I hold dear is having an intimate relationship with someone else, I am jealous. With jealousy my concern lies with the one beloved; he/she could have a relationship with anyone and I would feel the same. If I am distressed that someone I feel in competition with is having an intimate relationship with someone I hold of value, I am envious. With envy my concern lies with my rival; he/she could have a relationship with anyone I hold of value and I would feel the same. Focus of jealousy --> beloved Focus of envy --> rival 66.48.177.217 07:04, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 04:10, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

speculation
there is much speculation in this article, which I do not believe is in a good format. the speculation maybe expert speculation, but it should be noted as that. Rds865 (talk) 04:24, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

deletion
most of the article seems like someone just posted their essay, which I suggest should be deleted to best facilitate the formation of wikipedia article proper article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rds865 (talk • contribs) 04:31, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Spent a long time trying to boil down the long essays to something efficient and on-point. We've got another essay-like section added which replicates a previous section contrasting envy and jealousy (including reliance on the same same authorities) -- not a bad thing for an essay at all, but not really part of an encyclopedic treatment of the main subject. I propose to delete it. DavidOaks (talk) 00:06, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Needs work
The first line of Definition reads:

" Jealousy is a passion, focusing his definition on the effects of jealousy, which “frequently get out of control” (Goldie, 2000, p. 229).  "

This doesn't make much sense to me. It seems out-of-place and it seems to be missing context. Deletion? Refinement?

At the bottom, the page identifies compersion as "jealousy's opposite;" however the compersion page indicates that it is mistakenly referred to as the opposite of jealousy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.40.237.67 (talk) 09:06, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Deleted

 * 

Jealousy v envy definitions in this article - is this Original Research?
I though that jealousy = envy+action, that jealousy was a more intense version of envy, intense enough to lead to a desire to harm the object. The article says "Jealousy differs from envy in that jealousy is about something one has and is afraid of losing, while envy refers to something one does not have and either wants to acquire or to prevent another from acquiring." This assertion has no independant source given for it and may be Original Research, so I'm going to delete this bit. Put it back if you can provide independant evidence. It is also inconsistant withthe "popular" definations of jealousy given later in the article which are different from this defintion. The Wikipedia article should not attempt to impose its own definitions of the words. The definition given may seem neat, but that does not make it true. 78.151.123.102 (talk) 20:36, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

You really should look in a dictionary, —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.194.179.148 (talk) 23:07, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I thoroughly agree with 78.151 above. It seems this article has a lot of original research in it. I agree with 78.151s definition, and I think the article definitions are wrong. 92.15.0.178 (talk) 19:36, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

How can you say "It is not to be confused with envy." It IS TO BE CONFUSED WITH ENVY. I CONFUSE THE TWO ALL THE TIME!!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adrionwells (talk • contribs) 17:44, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Wrong definition
The article starts off saying "Jealousy....typically refers to the negative thoughts and feelings of insecurity, fear, and anxiety over an anticipated loss of something that the person values, particularly in reference to a human connection."

But people feel jealous of others who are richer, more successful, more handsome, etc etc, where the person feeling the emotion has lost nothing. Nor do they feel any fear, but just anger. So the definition is wrong. If it was right, then nobody would be jealous in the circumstances previously listed.

Looking at the several definitions of jealousy on the internet, it seems that the author of the above has chosen a minor meaning of the word to elaborate on, the meaning I associate with Shakesperean times. 92.28.245.12 (talk) 15:10, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

LDRs?
It seems strange to open with a section on Long Distance Relationships. Surely that should be much further down, if it is considered at all. We start from the general, only then do we move to the particular/specific, right? Also the LDR section is not very clear, it needs to be rewritten by its author, or someone. I'm tempted to remove it, or at least move it to near the end of the article. Spike (talk) 18:15, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Copyediting/Rewriting
Chunks of this, such as the gender differences part, are written in such broken English (mixed with bad scientific style) that the meaning becomes unclear. What, for instance, does this mean? "Moreover, research shows that audit attachment styles strongly conclude with the type of infidelity that occurred." Even when the meaning can be discerned, the writing is atrocious. I feel like this must have been copy-pasted from some non-native speaker's college term paper. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.123.241.148 (talk) 08:05, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

I am adding my endorsement, in the main, of the above (unsigned, 15 July 2012) comment which begins, "Chunks of this ...." I might speculate that, in the sentence example cited in that comment, that "audit" has been confused with "adult" and, possibly, "conclude" with "coincide." While those are just guesses on my part, I do agree with the other comment that parts of this entry seem almost nonsensical. I would add that, overall, the entry falls short of universally understood definitions and a comprehensive outline of the topic.--Zanski (talk) 09:25, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

May i add misse the point in the doemestic violence to and that is the  entitlement  one has to think they can  possess another. this infact shows that no respect love or hate based on the individual exsist, and their for can not be effected by a fear of loss of clossness Jealousy) sheould the section be listed under  pride- vanglory? it would be more factual.  The author went with the excuse  people come up when they externalize and blame others for their behavior.   So to jeasously may show up  in relation ships, but  controling women's sexuality, and birth control is denying autonomy, it is an envy and entitlement effecting women he may never meet. this entitlement is specifically male. This ommited factor is the problem in these cases, why does culture support that? misogyny as in bigotry against women, and  master over slave mentality.  Get things right before  placing articles online. I pray others read the talk and disreguarded the misrepresented  propaganda and rehtoric.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.220.74.154 (talk) 18:42, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

What about people that don't feel jealousy?
What about people in poly or open relationships? The article makes it sound like all humans feel jealousy; but that doesn't sound right... --TiagoTiago (talk) 11:17, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Jealousy as an evolutionary function
A new section could be added on jealousy from an evolutionary psychological perspective. This section could incorporate some of the existing text in the 'gender - differences', 'sexual jealousy' and 'in psychology' with new information. New information could include 'cuckoldry' which is thought to be a big cause of male jealousy according to evolutionary theory. Furthermore, some studies suggest that estrus may affect male jealousy behaviour. Ella McCann — Preceding unsigned comment added by EllaMcCann (talk • contribs) 14:32, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Useful update, thanks. Zezen (talk) 04:13, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 one external links on Jealousy. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20060427112226/http://www.psychologytoday.com:80/articles/pto-19940101-000017.html to http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-19940101-000017.html
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20060427112226/http://www.psychologytoday.com:80/articles/pto-19940101-000017.html to http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-19940101-000017.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).

Cheers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cyberbot II (talk • contribs) 00:37, 24 March 2016 (UTC)

Reactive jealousy versus suspicious jealousy.
Nothing about reactive jealousy versus suspicious jealousy.--Penbat (talk) 17:09, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Why are there so many parenthetical citations.
If I recall correctly, Wikipedia doesn't use parenthetical citations, right? --108.6.224.164 (talk) 03:12, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

Updates
Hello all, I have added additional content based on the sources above. Feedback received requested that I revised sections to present information as follows: etymology, theory, romantic, sexual, gender, animals, applications...so that was done as it makes more sense structurally. Tried to recite reference entries 55-62 to clean up repetitive entries but the system automatically generates more numbers although the citation was the same. If anyone is able, please do this.

Finally, there is content in the Gender-Based Differences and Theories sections that needs citations. Cannot find support for these statements, so if you uploaded that content, please be sure to appropriately cite it. Thanks!!! Brianna Williams 20:08, 8 March 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jacksonb8166 (talk • contribs)

Vandalism needs fixing
Writing on mobile so short. There are many passages with leftovers or vandalized content: ...some authors on sexuality nsthave argued that jealousy... ...blamed their partners more for sexual infidelities but were more hurt by emotional G.

[Sic!]

Let us fix it. Zezen (talk) 04:10, 5 May 2019 (UTC)