Talk:Jean-François Berthelier

Odd name for this article
Is there any special reason why this article is named only "Berthelier (singer)" instead of the normal naming practice here using either the name used in Grove (Jean-François Berthelier) or the French Wikipedia (Jean Berthelier)? If not, I'm going to move it to Jean-François Berthelier. Voceditenore (talk) 19:06, 14 February 2010 (UTC)


 * The name I gave the piece was the professional/stage name used by Berthelier and by which he is known – although obviously the article, as Grove, gives the full name. This seems to be in the common practice of some French (and other nationalities) singers and actors who only use one name as their stage name. Berthelier alone was taken by a Swiss patriot, hence (singer). The equivalent French Wikipedia article, as is often the case, has no sources or references. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 00:30, 15 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Up to now we haven't used 'stage names' as article titles, so I think it would be better to move it to Jean-François Berthelier. This would also obviate the disambig. -- Klein zach  03:05, 15 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I've now moved the article to Jean-François Berthelier. -- Klein zach  01:22, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

I am surprised that given recent discussions about Wikipedia guidance on naming articles another article on a singer has been retitled with little warning and with all links to it likewise changed. Yes, Grove has an article ‘Berthelier, Jean-François (Philibert) (b. Panissières, 14 Dec 1830…), but the crystal clear Wikipedia guidance on naming states:

Nicknames, pen names, stage names, cognomens

The name used most often to refer to a person in reliable sources is generally the one that should be used as the article title, even if it is not their "real" name.

When I originally put together this piece (as I tried to explain above) I could not find anywhere where 'Berthelier' was not used and certainly could not find ‘Jean-François Berthelier’, as in the Wikipedia guidance, as the “name used most often to refer to the person”. Everywhere I looked he was ‘Berthelier’ (including his full entry in Ganzl) – hence the title, as explained above. Apart from the opening words of the Grove article, are there in fact to be found any references, perhaps from contemporary reports, playbills, notices, or maybe a recent piece by someone like Keck, where 'Jean-François Berthelier' is ever "used most often to refer this person", which would help the changed title comply with the above-linked Wikipedia naming convention? I would be interested to know. Thanks. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 23:31, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * This has already been discussed at length. I don't think it needs repeating. The name given in Grove is Jean-François Berthelier, the same as here. This is a general encyclopedia and we need to entitle articles in a clear way. It may seem hip and 'ingroupy' to refer to people by one name, but we are here to serve the reader not the vanity of the editor. -- Klein zach  00:52, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for this reply.

I was sorry to see the content and tone of your extraordinary final sentence. I will not respond to it, and I trust that you did not mean it.

I will continue to create and edit Wikipedia pages as best I can, trying as far as possible to follow where appropriate the relevant Wikipedia guidelines. Thanks. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 18:45, 13 February 2011 (UTC)


 * My final sentence was a general statement of my view. You are of course entitled to protest that it doesn't apply here, however IMO the reader must always come first. That is my focus here. Thank you for your understanding. -- Klein  zach  01:41, 14 February 2011 (UTC)