Talk:Jean-Luc Picard/Archive 2

Enhanced or Better Than Nomral Hearing
In Star Trek: Nemesis, Picard is able to detect a misalignment of the Enterprise-E's torqe sensors. Goerdi asks him how he could hear the torqe sensors. We also learned that Picard suffers from Shalaft's Syndrome whiched caused hypersensitive hearing. Could it be assumed that although the disorder was treated, it lead to him still having "better than" normal hearing? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Neovu79 (talk • contribs) 05:46, 1 September 2006


 * No. First, Picard hears the torque thing in Insurrection; his improved hearing is attributable to the de-aging business going on. More importantly, the operative word in your question is "assumed", which is problematic for Wikipedia. Why not assume he has a hearing aid? Or that Geordi is hard of hearing? etc. --EEMeltonIV 13:12, 1 September 2006 (UTC)


 * That's not entirly correct either. In Insurrection, after Geordi said that the torque sensors were out of alignment by 10 microns, Captain Picard says that when he was an ensign, he could detect a 3 micron misalignment. Later, in Nemesis, Shinzon says that after he was treated for Shalaft's Shyndrome, he could hear as well as Picard could. Both of these scenes seem to indicate that Picard has better than average hearing at least or enhanced hearing at best. I am not sure what the torque sensors are, nor how a 10 micron misalignment would sound, but Geordi's and Perim's reaction seem to indicate that hearing such a misalignment is very uncommon. Hope this helps. Willie 08:25, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


 * "Torque Sensor Misalignment Detection" just reeks of technobabble and an overly complicated way of the writers to hint at Picard's de-aging. Stop clutching at straws here, people.143.92.1.40 (talk) 03:36, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Origin of name
Does anyone know if Picard was named after the 17th c. astronomer Jean Picard, or if it's a coincidence? Daibhid C 21:41, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The only reference I've ever found as an origin for the character's name was in the Star Trek Encyclopedia years ago, and that was merely speculation. Roddenberry supposedly named Picard after the famous Piccard (two c's) family of record-breaking explorers and scientists, particularly the balloonist Jean-Felix Piccard. There have been numerous hints that the character is a 24th century decendant of this family. Serendipodous 12:50, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm fairly certain that the first edition of the TNG Companion backs up Serendipodous's assertion (and also talks about the origin of Guinan's name). Don't remember, though, whether it cites interviews or papers or whether it just points out the happy coincidence. --EEMeltonIV 16:07, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Milestones
The milestones segment mentions an episode "Who watches the watchers?" where Picard espouses atheism, but any attempt to add him to the under-populated "fictional atheists" category meets with deletion. Therefore, someone should either delete that from the milestones or he should be added permanently to the list.

Quotes Section
This was deleted some time ago, and I think deserves reinstatement. Patrick Stewart is an actor of shakespearian schools. Famous quotes are his bread and butter, and I think what endears him to a large portion of the Star Trek fans despite his series not being "the original"

Perhaps we can agree on an upper limit (4 from the series, 1 from the movie) and try to keep the number in that frame for this article? I think there's really no better way to describe the star trek universe for casual readers than in quotes. Not to make this post a "best of" list, but try this on for size:

Picard: "We are what we are, and we're doing the best we can" -- stating the essential creed of the United Federation of Planets. Liu Bei 03:25, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

According to Darkmateria's website, the Picard Song was released in 2001, fixed

Pronunciation?
Does the character of Picard produce the word lieutenant the American way (Lu-tenant) or the Britsh way (Leff-tenant)? I'm confused because the actor is British, but the character is French.
 * I'm a bit picky in my old age so I corrected your spelling of pronunciation. Anyway to the best of my memory he always pronounced it the American way (instead of the proper way!! ducks for cover!) which would also be appropriate for a Frenchman but I always found it particularly grating in a British accent. AulaTPN 21:03, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Main Picture
This is an extremely unflattering picture of Picard, and it also has the gray uniform from the movies rather than the red one from the show, where he was most well-known. Surely someone can find a better picture than this? I would add one, but I usually end up violating copyright rules somehow, so I just leave it to people more skilled than me. Mnpeter 04:02, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree - There was a good image of him in the red uniform sitting on the bridge of the Enterprise-D, I suggest we revert it back, it was a much better looking image. Ejfetters 06:41, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Ensign Picard
Who is playing Ensign Picard in the picture presented in the article? J I P | Talk 19:51, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Trivia
The trivia section seems to contain no material that contributes to the article in an encyclopedic matter, that is, nothing you would find in a encyclopedia about the character. I propose eliminating this section to help clean up the article, as it is supposed to be an encylopedic article. Also, none of this information is found in the Star Trek encyclopedia, so I don't think it should be here either. Ejfetters 07:11, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Image placement debate
It was suggested previously, and there was only 1 response to the suggestion, in agreement with the proposer, that the image in the infobox be changed to a better image of the subject from the more noteable television series that he was in for 7 seasons. After the change another user commented on the image at my talk page, so I will bring the discussion here as should be done, as discussions for the page should be in the page's discussion. So, the question is, Captain Picard came to be known in ST:TNG, where the character was created and came to be notable in popular culture. Because of the success of the television show, 4 feature films were spun off from the television series. Images of several ST:TOS and ST:TNG have images from there notable roles in the television series. I propose that the image in the lead off infobox for the character be one from the television series. An image of the character from his film roles can be inserted where the films are discussed in the article. This will also suit the flow of the article's timeline better. I propose both images of Captain Picard remain, though the image in the infobox be in the red uniform from TNG. Furthermore, if someone has more knowledege of image editing, could you please edit both images so the conform to fair-use screenshot standards on resolution and size. If it is needed I can look this policy up and list it here, or to any user who requests it. Thank you. Begin voting below Agree for the reasons stated above. Ejfetters 00:18, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, this subject has been listed at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Star Trek to draw attention of more users, because it was noted on my talk page that I was the only other user, besides the initial topic starter that commented on it. Ejfetters 00:34, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree that the infobox image should be from the TV series. Furthermore, I doubt any shots solely of Picard in the film elsewhere in the article would qualify as fairuse, since visually he doesn't change all that much; the image wouldn't meet the criteria of substantially aiding in readers' understanding of the subject. --EEMeltonIV 01:31, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * You're probably right about fairuse for the images. We should leave them both for now until this consensus runs its courses though, don't you think? Ejfetters 02:19, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Strong Oppose - clearer, more dynamic shot of him in the one that has been there.

Ejfetters reversion of the image
Ejfetters, please stop reverting the image on this page. You've already made it look like there was a big discussion on the subject in your first edit summary where you revert it, when there wasn't. One user had made a comment and that was it. Just because you two don't like the image doesn't mean it gets voted out. It was NOT adequately voted out, so it stays until it HAS been voted out with a consesus that's done correctly. One person going on a talk page and stating an opinion about the image looking unflattering, followed by your saying 'agreed', does not count as a consesus or a discussion. There's a specific way to go about trying to remove something that's controversial, and you've been doing it incorrectly and continually adding your image. Further, if you thought a consesus had been reached and the discussion is closed, you are supposed to make that known, which also don't know how to do it correctly. Please see []. For these reasons, I am reverting back the image back. For the record, I oppose the change. However, it's not important until you request removal in the correct fashion where everyone is aware that you are requesting removal by the title. Not main picture as your title. Tratare 01:17, 7 September 2007 (UTC) While the consensus process does not require posting to the discussion page, it can be useful. Edit summaries are short and can be misinterpreted. Discussing your edit may help it attract consensus. Posting a comment before editing is the best way to avoid misunderstandings. If you are unsure about an edit someone has made, wait a reasonable amount of time to allow them to post a comment. Also, when considering edits, be sure to check the discussion page to see if there are any open or closed discussions on the area you were about to edit. But once you have checked and contributed to the discussion, don't be too timid, BE BOLD. Thank you for your cooperation and good faith edits. Ejfetters 01:44, 7 September 2007 (UTC) This is an extremely unflattering picture of Picard, and it also has the gray uniform from the movies rather than the red one from the show, where he was most well-known. Surely someone can find a better picture than this? I would add one, but I usually end up violating copyright rules somehow, so I just leave it to people more skilled than me. Mnpeter 04:02, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
 * User initiated discussion per Consensus on talk page, I responded, and waited 2 months to see if others would comment. Never implied there was a huge discussion, pointed out discussion in edit summary so users could see why the change was made.  Now there is another discussion per the current revision that I made.  Please wait till the consensus has gone through its process before editing again.  Please add to the discussion above - as per the policy quoting:
 * Note on use of discussion page
 * Here is the above discussion the user is referring to for anyone's interest. Notice I made the comment on July 31 2007, but waited over 2 months before making the change:
 * Main Picture

Agree - There was a good image of him in the red uniform sitting on the bridge of the Enterprise-D, I suggest we revert it back, it was a much better looking image. Ejfetters 06:41, 31 July 2007 (UTC) Ejfetters 01:46, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Howdy, I've protected the article. Let someone know when a consensus is reached. Best regards, Navou banter 02:53, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Please look at the article further, no images have been removed, they have only be moved around. The original image is in the article still, so that way it won't get speedily deleted. Ejfetters 03:39, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Can anyone tell me in a nutshell, are there any unfair use issues with any of the images in question? ShutterBugTrekker 22:08, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * No, there is no real issues about the images being non-free use. The character is a fictional televsion/film character, therefore, there cannot be any free use images, so proper use of fair use (non-free) is permitted.  Only thing that is being contested is the placement of the images.  Three users have agreed now (including one in an earlier conversation) the infobox image should be from the more notable role in the television series, where the character came to be and became very popular.  The movies were spun off from the TV show because of the populartiy.  Therefore I myself, along with 2 others above think the infobox pic should be from TNG-era.  Furthermore, as another user has commented, the pic of Picard from the film series is questionable in his opinion, and I think it can be solved if we can come up with a more panoramic view per say, of Picard in command of the Enterprise-E and a critical moment in a film, that is talked about in the article per say, then it should fit.  No one has proposed removing or deleting either images, they haven't been nominated, just placement of the images is up for debate, please, feel free to comment in the discussion above, and if you find better images feel free to upload them, as long as you cite the source, and give FU rationale, and they meet criteria set forth.  We can't have clearer original versions of the images, they must be scaled down per fair-use criteria, that is why they might appear lesser quality than you may find.  Ejfetters 00:13, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Triavia / pop culture section?
Should there be a 'references in popular culture', or trivia section? I'm thinking here of referring to the dual meaning of the 'Picard Manuever', also the Picard Song.

WikiReaderer 00:26, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Trivia sections are frowned upon, and relevant information should be integrated into the proper place in the article. If the article ever is to achieve good article or featured article it needs to have primarily real-world info, i.e. casting, character development (writing), critical commentary, reception, etc.  There was a trivia section here but it was proposed to be removed, and there were no objections so it was removed, as has been done throughout Wikipedia.  If you want to add relevant information, try to integrate it into the article in it's proper place.  It should be noted that the article's condition right now has too much in-universe information, and much should be condensed and the real-world information greatly expanded. Ejfetters 04:31, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

In-universe
Tagged as in-universe because there is no information about casting, development, merchandising, critical reaction, or coverage by outside third-party sources. All of this is implied by the presence of the in-universe tag in general, which provides a link to the fiction-writing guidelines, but User:Anton Mravcek‎ apparently wants this spelled out on talk pages -- which is not a requirement for posting the tag, despite what the editor's edit summaries imply. Well, here it is. Trimming of plot summary is appreciated, but what's left is still...plot summary. --EEMeltonIV 04:24, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


 * That way we know you actually know what you're talking about, lets us know that maybe you aren't tagging stuff just for the heck of it. It's so easy to tag stuff. To actually do something about it, that's not so easy. Plinth molecular gathered 22:00, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I totally agree. It's almost an epidemic here in Wikipedia: "Why should I do it? Somebody else will do it." But no one is stepping up to the plate to be that somebody else. The article already has one warning tag. Let people deal with that before deluging them with all the tags you can think of which barely apply. I'm reminded here of a technique lawyers sometimes use: they deluge opposing counsel with document production so that the relevant data will become a needle in a haystack. Robert Happelberg 02:29, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


 * If an article both is in-universe and requires citations, then it should be tagged as such. "It already has a tag" is not a compelling reason to delete another. Again, I don't understand why people view these tags as somehow detracting from the article; again, the point is to attract more-knowledgeable users' attention. --EEMeltonIV 02:46, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Any jerk can put on a tag. It takes slightly more skill to explain it on the talk page so others understand that one has actually read the article and has assessed the tag correctly, and not simply put it on out of a whim. But what really takes leadership is to show how to fix the problem. To take a single article and fix it up, and say to others: "I am now part of the solution, I am showing the way to fix these." Michiganotaku 20:22, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Please maintain a civil tone and assume good faith. I've read the article, and in fact spent a long time months ago editing it. I'm also familiar with the WP:WAF guidelines, and this article simply doesn't meet them. If I had the resources to provide a real-world perspective to the article, I'd do it -- same as I've done with plenty of other articles about fictional topics -- but I don't. So, I've tagged it hoping that someone notices and offers their own two cents. --EEMeltonIV 20:30, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Just my two cents' worth: I think the word "jerk" is just right for anyone who keeps complaining even after others bend over backwards trying to satisfy the plaintiff. Even if it isn't, Michiganotaku has been a lot more civil than the minimum expectation. As for Cromulent Kwyjibo, it's not at all surprising to me that a Simpsons fan would show up here and show Trek fans how it's done. Another Slappywag Among Petorians 23:40, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, I don't particularly care about whatever epithets you want to fling. I'm glad that people have added more real-world content to the article rather than simply removed the tag because they have an uninformed notion that a maintenance tag is some sort of blemish. Whether these additions stem from the flag's presence or the spat about whether it should be there in the first place -- I don't really care about that, either. Still, it continues to mostly be, and to focus on, plot summary. Plot summary and an in-universe structure are what Memory Alpha is for. I hope the same people who've done the research and have the resources to provide more real-world info continue to add more to these others. For my own part, I'll start cutting more plot summary from this plot-summary-heavy article. --EEMeltonIV 04:02, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Maybe you can read an entire paragraph at a time. But think about those who read only one letter at a time. Before their minds can determine the precise flaw of the article, the shrill yellow tag nonverbally tells them: "There is something fatally wrong with this article and you shouldn't rely on it for any purpose." The next message as their minds decode the top of the tag might be: "These people don't know what they're talking about. Let me check EB instead."
 * Also I'd like to respond to something you said in an edit summary: "people adding tags do not have the onus of finding sources for the article." No, they don't, but they do have the onus of showing they're not lazy jerks who simply like putting tags on stuff, they have the onus of showing that they think there might be a way of improving the article. Otherwise they'd better either nominate the article for deletion or just plain shut up. Anton Mravcek 20:39, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Livingston
Should this article contain a sub-section about Picard's fish. I am not sure there is enough "out-of-universe" information or RS, but I just followed a See Also link to here and I am not sure how appropriate the link is under that heading. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ursasapien (talk • contribs) 07:45, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

The Picard Song
If The Picard Song is going to redirect here instead of being its own page or a page which collects and describes viral media, there should be content here. Towards that end, I put together a short section regarding it and sourced it appropriately. If you can expand it or split it off to its own page, great. I kind of doubt that there's enough information or notability for it to justify its own page, though. There does seem to be more than enough notability for it to merit a mention, though. EvilCouch 02:09, 1 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Information about "The Picard Song" should go on the YTMND article. Even though it was/is a popular internet meme it does not provide any valuable information about the character Jean-Luc Picard.  I'll move this information if I do not see any objections to doing so.  Gh5046 (talk) 11:36, 27 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't know about it not providing "any valuable information". That a very popular meme was based off of him demonstrates that the character has had a notable influence on popular culture. I'm not totally opposed to the content being moved; I just think that it's a better fit here. Rather than moving it, I'd like to propose to expand the section, not with more information about the song, but about other notable influence the character's had. I don't mean that I'd like to see an actual trivia section, as those invariably lead to ridiculous cruft about one-second cameo/parodies; just the highlights.(i.e. novels that center solely on him, notable pop culture references, etc.) EvilCouch (talk) 02:04, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

There is a Lyric sheet to the song, but it is more than just mere lyrics; it also sources the episodes that the picard sound bytes are taken from, is that of use to anyone or anyplace on wikipedia? Zulto (talk) 02:04, 1 April 2008 (UTC)


 * It's probably not notable enough for an explicit mention in the article's text, however it could definitely be used as a reference for the fact that it used Star Trek samples. EvilCouch (talk) 02:15, 1 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The lyrics make reference to [TNG:219 'The First Duty'] [TNG:104 'Code of Honour'] [TNG:251 'Timescape'] [TNG:113 'The Big Goodbye'] [TNG:172 'Ménage à Troi'] [TNG:202 'Darmok'] [TNG:175-175 'Best of Both Worlds pt.1&2'] and [TNG:237 'Chain of Command'] So in effect the song is a pretty epic piece of work. Zulto (talk) 03:40, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Unsourced statement on Locutus
In the section about Locutus, the article currently reads, "His name, Locutus is a clever nod to the Roman professional poisoner Locusta who is suspected of many deaths, including the Emperor Claudius, which ultimately resulted in the ascendency of Nero to Emperor and the historical burning of Rome." Where is this from? Because it seems to me that the name is much more likely to be derived from "locution," which is 1) A particular word, phrase, or expression, especially one that is used by a particular person or group and 2) Style of speaking; phraseology. Essentially, a "locutus" would be a person used by a particular person or group to speak for them, hence the name. This explanation seems to make much more sense in the context of Picard's relationship to the Borg than the current one does. While there isn't a source for this either, as far as I know, it is a reasonable alternative to the current unsourced explanation, which should probably be removed without a citation. Thoughts? Newsboy85 (talk) 05:57, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Length of article
Didn't this article use to be more than twice as long and more detailed? What happened? ¿Qué pasó? Mulder1982 (talk) 01:12, 24 August 2008 (UTC)


 * From what I've seen, there is more information in the discussion tab about this character than the actual article has on it. However, people could go on and write for miles about a well known Star Trek character such as Captian Picard.  I don't believe the complete life history of Star Trek characters is essential for Wikipedia, rather, a brief look at accomplishments and relivant information needs to be presented.  Save the detailed analysis for Memory Alpha.Firekraqr (talk) 19:58, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Make it so
To say that "Make it so" comes from Hornblower is not completely accurate. It is a term that stems from the Royal Navy and is still in use today. Making this a Star Trek/Hornblower connection is like making say the phrase "Thank you" is a quote from "Silence of the Lambs". CU L8R AV8R ... J-P (talk) 19:30, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:ST-TNG Tapestry.jpg
The image Image:ST-TNG Tapestry.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check


 * That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
 * That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. --00:31, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Engage
A more complete article on this character would have AT LEAST some mention of his more popular phrase "Engage" with hand movement, perhaps along with "make it so." 132.178.206.155 (talk) 05:14, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Bald captain in the 24th century
I think it's notable to add to this article information from the first 30 second of this: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=pXOK-ZVJMaU 89.138.105.130 (talk) 20:55, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

The pronunciation of "Jean-Luc"
Everyone, including Picard himself mispronounces his name. That is, assuming he's French and assuming pronunciation hasn't changed from "now". Why does EVERYONE call him "Jean-LOOK"? Why does he call himself that? Maybe he should learn to speak French? 97.103.80.222 (talk) 21:39, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The series is set 360 years in the future. Pronunciation can change a lot in three and a half centuries -OOPSIE- (talk) 00:16, 19 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Also, due to the universal translator, it's entirely possible Picard is "speaking" French (of today), and his name is rendered (to the audience, as well as English-speaking crew members) as the perfectly normal anglicization . — ˈzɪzɨvə (talk) 23:07, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

"Captain Bald"
Jean-Luc Picard, sometimes referred to affectionately by fans as "Captain Bald,"

I haven't seen this used frequently, nor does it appear in Usenet archives or google searches. Citation is needed. --Kynn (talk) 18:11, 17 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I have never heard of it. The sentence is unsourced and looks like vandalism to me, so let's just remove it. Offliner (talk) 21:41, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Suggestions for improvement
This article could use some expansion including exploring the dynamic aspects of the character, like the impact of the events of "The Inner Light" where Picard lives a whole lifetime as a Ressikan, or how his discomfort around children plays out throughout the franchise. Where's the discussion of the tension between Picard and Crusher? What about his holodeck adventures? This article reveals only the broadest strokes to outline a very finely drawn character. ClaudeReigns (talk) 08:55, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Removal of Countdown information
Since the Countdown comic is non-canon, the information in it has no place in Jean-Luc Picard's biography. It would only fit in an Apocrypha section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.236.46.224 (talk) 01:53, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

"Picard song"
Let's not add this piece of advertisement to the article. It's not a good measure for the popularity of the character unless there is a reliable source which says so. Offliner (talk) 04:13, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The media attention that it garnered YTMND essentially made the site what it is today. The various incarnations of the Picard Song created a snowball effect that caused much of the site's popularity. Additionally, The Picard Song and Picard Song both redirect here. By removing the mention, you're breaking cross-references. EvilCouch (talk) 09:31, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * What "media attention"? I don't ever recall seeing it on any traditional medium. A bunch of people linking to the site on their blogs does not constitute legitimate "media attention". Regardless of any popularity it garnered, discussion of the YTMND is completely irrelevant to the character of Jean-Luc Picard and is without encyclopedic merit.
 * I could, however, get behind a mention (certainly not a whole section) of the Picard Song somewhere in the article. However, an external link would be highly inappropriate. DKqwerty (talk) 13:45, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I got here through one of the redirects. If there was a mention of The Picard Song on this page that was being linked to, and someone felt the need (probably legitimate) to remove it from this page, it seems to me that they should at least move the text to the The Picard Song page and remove the redirect.  To simply delete it without recourse isn't right for those of us who came here looking for information specifically on The Picard Song and not necessarily Jean-Luc Picard.beerslayer (talk) 06:13, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Agree with Beerslayer. Someone needs to put the reference back on the page, or change the redirect.  174.70.97.6 (talk) 02:08, 8 December 2009 (UTC)