Talk:Jean Moulin

Controvery section
Poorly did, does not sound encyclopaedic whatsoever. Historically its inaccurate, the idea that British and American intelligence proxy-assissinated Moulin is absurd. Furthermore Charles de Gaulle was not pro-American, he is one of the defining figures of European anti-Americanism! This needs to be sorted. --JDnCoke 11:14, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Hero?
Edcolins, you changed "hero of the..." to "member of the..." why? did you feel it wasn't NPOV? If that's the case, i will have to disagree with you; Jean Moulin was, in many ways, more than "just" a member of the resistance.. Anyway thanks everyone for your edits, even though it is kind of embarrassing to see all the orthographic mistakes I made ^^;;;    F  i  P  00:55, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Yes, even though I truly respect Jean Moulin and what he did, I thought the term hero was far too biased. But that was just my humble opinion. Stating what he did might be far better and sufficient to understand and judge his acts. A parallel could be: if someone was really a nasty man, do not state "he was a nasty man", but just state his deeds. It seems to me more encyclopedic. --Edcolins 16:59, Aug 30, 2004 (UTC)


 * He certainly was a hero, in the sense taht he is accepted as one of the most notable and proeminent members of the Resistance. Indeed, he is the personification (perhaps along with d'Estienne d'Orves) of the interior resistance. Rama 08:37, 19 October 2005 (UTC)


 * English want to hide there were french heros during WWII. They prefer to lie on History to say they were the only ones heroes. Proximo (talk) 21:29, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Rescue?
I took as history the account in a docu-style film probably from the 1990s depicting him as being rescued, between his prison & an interrogation, via an attack on the vehicle & soldiers moving him there. (And of course later dying after recapture.) Bunk? (Hmm, the rescue united him with his lover, who went on the raid.... Hmmm, maybe i'm gullible.) --Jerzy(t) 17:37, 2004 Sep 10 (UTC)

Rescue???
Jerzy: Wow. I've actually never heard that story before! Interesting thought, though.

Prefet ?
I'm not that familiar with wikipedia's guidelines on the subject, so i'll just ask: In the section "Resistance", Jean Moulin is discribed as the préfet of Eure-et-loir, but a few lines bellow, we find a link for prefects. Which is more correct : préfet and préfets or Prefect and Prefects ?

F i  P  08:36, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Prefet is french for prefect which is a rank in government in some nations.{subst:unsigned|86.197.117.164}}
 * That did not answer my question. FiP  Как вы думаете? 01:46, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Crypto Communist
A few days after I had rewritten this article, someone had added the "crypto communist" part. I guess i didn't want to feel stupid by asking "what the heck is a crypto-communist ? öO" :D

Anyway Ruy Lopez just removed it, i guess that's that.

F i P 17:09, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Horrific death
"because of his great courage and his horrific death." His death is not described in any terms in this article that would support it being "horrific." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.207.242.4 (talk • contribs)
 * Well he was tortured to death, the death certificate was made 6 months after his supposed date of death so it was probably very very horrible as they wanted to obtain all the informations he knew. NanoPish (talk) 18:09, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

Le Rire
"Yandman" Removed the following from the external links sections: *LeRire.com - Features OCR'd Le Rire issues This link may or may not belong here, I'm not sure, but I propose adding "Le Rire" to the "See Also" section.

FiP Как вы думаете? 01:31, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Communist?
The 1970's called. They'd like their baseless accusation back.
 * Red Scare seem to be immortal. NanoPish (talk) 18:07, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 03:53, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

ashes- corpse legend
The fact that he (his ashes) was buried in Père Lachaise and then transferred to the Pantheon actually is more legend than fact. As well said by the French version of this article, his corpse was never found/identified, so it's just symbolic. His grave is empty, a cenotaph (see french version of the article) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.74.139.98 (talk) 09:42, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * According to the french version of the article, the ashes are supposed to be jean moulin's as the body was rappatried in France and directly burned : Le 9 juillet 1943, le corps d’« un ressortissant français décédé en territoire allemand » — présumé être Jean Moulin — est rapatrié à Paris, gare de l'Est et aussitôt incinéré3. L'urne contenant ses cendres est ensuite déposée au cimetière du Père-Lachaise, case 10137, avec pour seule mention « Inconnu incinéré, 09-07-43 »3. En 1945, sa famille fait déplacer cette urne dans le carré de la Résistance du cimetière. L’urne est finalement transférée au Panthéon, en 1964. a b c d et e Benoît Hopquin, « Le mystère des cendres de Jean Moulin » [archive], sur lemonde.fr, 19 décembre 2014 (consulté le 10 septembre 2015)
 * So for now... we don't know — Preceding unsigned comment added by NanoPish (talk • contribs) 18:45, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

Instead of posting this.....
at the beginning of each section as it should be I am bringing it here. All of these sections make a number of claims as factual and seeing as how we are dealing with people (alive and dead) exact dates and crimes and accusations of crimes this needs to cleared up. tyvm Pudge MclameO (talk) 03:08, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

"was a high-profile member of the French Resistance "
I sincerely doubt he would have lived as long as he did, if that were true. Perhaps a rephrase is in order? Guinness2702 (talk) 11:35, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Resistance section reads like a school child's adventure story
Far too floral and emotional. Main source is Alan Clinton 1999 Jean Moulin, 1899-1943: The French Resistance and the Republic which does not rely on French sources — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.202.211.125 (talk) 05:01, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

With all due respect, Clinton is a very respected historian of France and his book is based upon French sources if you taken the time to read his footnotes. More importantly, what you doing here is very close to negationsism. The massacre of the Senegalese soldiers was referenced to a RS, so your argument that it is unreliable about it you cannot find an internet source confirming it is a most dubious edit. Furthermore, you claim that French sources state that such massacre took place. I'm going try to be polite here; you need to reference such sources. Merely saying that "French sources" say something is an assertion that does not justify deleting material referenced to a RS. What are these "French sources" that you talking about? It is a matter of fact that the German Army did massacre Senegalese serving in the French Army in 1940. --A.S. Brown (talk) 00:50, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Dubious
Was Moulin dismissed/removed from office of a préfet on November 2, 1940 or 16 November 1940?

--Gui le Roi (talk) 13:06, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Hey he was dismissed the 2
 * http://www.cheminsdememoire.gouv.fr/en/jean-moulin
 * On 2 November 1940 the Vichy government dismissed the left-leaning, faithful servant of the Republic, who moved to Saint-Andiol in the Alpilles and contacted various Resistance movements in the southern zone. In October 1941 he went to London and became the Resistance's messenger to General de Gaulle.
 * NanoPish (talk) 18:07, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

The 2013 protest was against the government, not related to Jean Moulin's alledged homosexuality
I removed a dubious statement about protests in 2013 being related to Jean Moulin's hypothetical homosexuality : “In 2013, a remembrance ceremony in France attended by the prime minister was disturbed by anti-gay protestors [...]” There's no mention of this in the linked article (which actually links to this more complete article). This protest was against the François Hollande government, and specifically against the then recently voted law on “same-sex marriage”, it had no relation whatsoever with the alledged homosexuality of Jean Moulin (which I had never seen mentioned until I read this article on english Wikipedia, go figure). Besides, the whole “Homosexuality” section is awkward by its relative length, its gossip treatment, and even more so by its placement, as if it was the missing link between “The Resistance” and “Who betrayed Jean Moulin”...--Abolibibelot (talk) 03:30, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Not wanting to be the asshole frenchman even if I feel it is too late as I am writting this sentence, but the level of fake news / propaganda on the first EN wikipedia page I try to follow is scary :O

Suggestion to add "the" photo
The fedora-and-scarf photo by Marcel Bernard (see the links in the refs below) is still under copyright, but I think there is a good case to put it while passing WP:NFCC. I propose to put it in into the "legacy" section accompanied with the following text: "The photograph with a fedora and scarf has become a popular representation of Jean Moulin and more generally the Resistance movement; in it, Jean Moulin seems to hide from onlookers to protect his clandestine life. However, the photograph itself was taken in Montpellier in February 1940 during a family visit, before his first arrest in June 1940 and subsequent decision to join the Resistance."

That would IMO satisfy NFCC #1 (no free equivalent because no image can replace that exact image) and #8 (contextual significance), and other criteria are easy to fulfill.

Any objections before I do the paperwork to upload the image? Tigraan Click here for my talk page ("private" contact) 12:44, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I posted a notification about this thread at WP:MCQ, to sollicit input on the "good case to pass NFCC" point. Tigraan Click here for my talk page ("private" contact) 12:50, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Jean Moulin (20 June 1899 – 8 July 1943) was a French civil servant and resistant who succeeded in unifying the main networks of the French Resistance, a unique act in Europe. He served as the first President of the National Council of the Resistance during World War II from 27 May 1943 until his death less than two months later.<

I dont know where you heard his second name? I dont know why you make effort to delete the specificity of his action. You, english, want to be the only ones hero of WWII. Proximo (talk) 21:27, 14 December 2023 (UTC)