Talk:Jean V of Parthenay

Article sections
I took a stab at this grouping of sections, pulling Personal life out into its own group.

I will be adding a bit about how John V focused on his public life and Antoinette took care of their personal life. There were bits of information that threaded through the public life type of sections, and got a bit lost, without cohesion or context.

This is the current format:

(Top) Personal life Early life Marriage and children Religion Military and royal occupations The beginning (1539–1553) Parma (1553) The Renaudie affair (1559–1560) Knighted and converted (1561) French Wars of Religion (1562–1598) The Massacre of Wassy (1562) Lyon headquarters (1562) The Assassination of the Duke of Guise (1563) Last years (1564–1566) Death (1566) Reception A chaotic fate The judgement of posterity Some dating issues See also Notes References Bibliography

Does this layout, which is a stab at getting to a good format, work? It would be lovely to have feedback about this - and what changes could make it better.–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:30, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Cohesive religion and conversion section
I am thinking about moving the conversion conversation into "Religion" and summarizing it there. Right now there's information throughout several sections and in my opinion it would be good to make it a cohesive discussion. How does that sound?–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:58, 30 June 2023 (UTC)


 * ✅–CaroleHenson (talk) 03:18, 1 July 2023 (UTC)


 * I should have said done, but would appreciate comments about approach or content. I have more I am going to add.–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:07, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Article cleanup
Currently, there is a cleanup tag on the article that states "This article may require copy editing for grammar, style, cohesion, tone, or spelling."

I have been working on:
 * Getting a chronological flow — ✅–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:22, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Pulling personal life into its own section. — ✅–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:22, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Fixing present-tense verbiage ✅–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:36, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I want to get a consistent approach of use of names throughout the article, using the most common names their article title name : first name - of/de - place - main title used for people with articles —v✅ unless Teahouse provides an approach I should use–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:22, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I will go after copy editing, too - ✅–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:36, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

This is essentially an FYI, so you know where I am headed, but if any of this doesn't make sense, I am happy to change course / tweak the course to make the article even better.–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:25, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Changed to using the article title name.–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:16, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I am just about done with this section, I just need to finish copy edit and ensure all present tense places are fixed.–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:22, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Names used in the article

 * Antoinette d'Aubeterre: Antoinette d'Aubeterre, Antoinette
 * Catherine de' Medici: same
 * Catherine de Parthenay: same, Catherine
 * François de Beaumont, baron des Adrets: same
 * François, Prince of Soubise]: same
 * Francis II of France: Francis II, with link to his article
 * François II, Baron d'Aubeterre (brother-in-law): same
 * François II, Baron d'Aubeterre: same, father-in-law
 * François Viète: same
 * Francis, Duke of Guise: Francis, Duke of Guise
 * Henry II of France: Henry II, King Henry II in a few relevant places - including one where the source said "King" and I took the name from the List of monarchs article, Henry II, Duke of Orléans in one place where he was referred in the source as "Duke of Orléans"
 * Jacques de Savoie, Duke of Nemours: same, Duke of Nemours with link
 * Jean V de Parthenay-L'Archevêque, or Larchevêque, Sieur de Soubise: Jean V of Parthenay, Jean V (There were a couple of Jeans, but single use of their name, so I used Jean and their family name - and made sure each lone "Jean" was changed to "Jean V")
 * Jean IV de Parthenay The Archbishop, Lord of Soubise: Jean IV de Parthenay, Jean IV
 * Louis I, Prince of Condé: same
 * Louis de Bourbon, Duke of Montpensier: same
 * Louis XIV: same
 * Michelle de Saubonne: Michelle de Saubonne, Michelle
 * René II, Viscount of Rohan: René II, Viscount of Rohan

--- work in progress


 * ✅, looks pretty good to me now.–CaroleHenson (talk) 03:15, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
 * minor edit–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:07, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Here's the diff of name changes diff.–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:24, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

I am assuming that this is an okay approach in many cases. So when someone has multiple titles, the one selected for the article I am guessing was how he was most commonly known.

The only thing that I think is an issue is that in my earnestness to not have multiple titles for the same person, there might be some who hadn't attained the title that is used for the article name by an event(s) mentioned in the article. For instance, Henri II of France became king in 1574, and before that was Duke of Orléans and then Duke of Anjou, but it seems most commonly known as Duke of Orléans.

In that case, I think I should use the title that is relevant for the time — and, in my opinion, refer to when he required the title in the article name, perhaps in a note. If anyone has an informed opinion better than my potentially flawed deduction, that would be really helpful to know.

In the meantime, I will go through and update the titles based upon the specific time in an article, sentence, etc.–CaroleHenson (talk) 14:21, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Check for people who attained those titles later
Copied list from above to avoid a refractoring (right term?) issue - and create a checklist to work through:
 * Antoinette d'Aubeterre: same, Antoinette — no title issue — 👍
 * Catherine de' Medici: same commonly known as Catherine de' Medici, born Caterina Maria Romula de' Medici — 👍
 * Catherine de Parthenay: same, Catherine — generally referred to as Catherine de Parthenay, but acquired Viscountess/Princess of Rohan titles after her marriage in 1575 — seems 👍
 * François de Beaumont, baron des Adrets: same Born a Beaumont, don't know when he became a baron, but seems to be before 1564 which was about the time of the events in the article — 👍
 * François, Prince of Soubise]: same born François de Rohan, title of Prince of Soubise in 1667 — OOPS! Wrong guy? — Right guy, "The judgement of posterity" section — 👍
 * Francis II of France: Francis II, with link to his article Born son of a king, became governor of Languedoc in 1546 and Dauphin of France in 1547, became King consort of Scotland in 1558 and King of France in 1559 – Dauphin Francis II --> Dauphin Francis in one place ✅
 * François II, Baron d'Aubeterre (brother-in-law): same name/title from source 👍
 * François II, Baron d'Aubeterre (father-in-law): same name/title from source 👍
 * François Viète: — no title issue 👍
 * Francis, Duke of Guise: Francis, Duke of Guise Full list of titles is: Francis I of Lorraine, 2nd Duke of Guise, 1st Prince of Joinville, and 1st Duke of Aumale. Father was Duke of Guise, his father died 12 April 1550 — mentions of his name in the 1560 — 👍
 * Henry II of France: Henry II, King Henry II in a few relevant places - including one where the source said "King" and I took the name from the List of monarchs article, Henry II, Duke of Orléans in one place where he was referred in the source as "Duke of Orléans" — Duke of Orléans from 1519 to 1536. Dauphin of France upon the death of his elder brother Francis in 1536. King of France from 31 March 1547, died in 1559. — too many title changes, added a note here — ✅
 * Jacques de Savoie, Duke of Nemours: same, Duke of Nemours with link — Duke from 1533 to 1585 — 👍
 * Jean V de Parthenay-L'Archevêque, or Larchevêque, Sieur de Soubise: Jean V of Parthenay, Jean V (There were a couple of Jeans, but single use of their name, so I used Jean and their family name - and made sure each lone "Jean" was changed to "Jean V") — His father died before he was born — seems 👍
 * Jean IV de Parthenay The Archbishop, Lord of Soubise: Jean IV de Parthenay, Jean IV — 👍
 * Louis I, Prince of Condé: same — seems 👍
 * Louis de Bourbon, Duke of Montpensier: same — Likely became Duke when his mother died in 1561 — Article refers to 1562 time frame — seems 👍
 * Louis XIV: same — No change needed — 👍
 * Michelle de Saubonne: same, Michelle — no title issue 👍
 * René II, Viscount of Rohan: René II, Viscount of Rohan — No change needed — 👍

–CaroleHenson (talk) 14:28, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

--- work in progress Added 👍 where there don't need to be any changes.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:21, 2 July 2023 (UTC)


 * ✅–CaroleHenson (talk) 02:09, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

This section is ✅, still have to deal with some uncited content.–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:38, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Uncited content
Uncited content - In my opinion, the most worthwhile additions are from those who cited their content. Otherwise, we don't know if it's original research / personal opinion - or content from a reliable source.

In my opinion, uncited content should be removed... and wait and see what additional cited information could be added for context, background, or evaluation. It's hard enough to research French / English combination of sources, backing into uncited info is brutal. Does anyone have a concern about that?–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:25, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I have just a couple of places where I need to add a citation, but I otherwise finished clearing out the uncited text. ✅–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:19, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Marshal Vieuville, baron de Gordes
I am intrigued by the following line of this article "In Lyon, Jean V and his lawyer researched documents about his actions that were held by Marshal de Vieuville, Lord of Gordes."

I know of no Marshal of that name. I know a Marshal Vielleville, I wonder if there has been a confusion there. Even if there has been though I do not believe Vielleville was the lord of Gordes. The lord of Gordes would have been Bertrand-Rambaud de Simiane? sovietblobfish (talk) 16:51, 1 July 2023 (UTC)


 * I remembering researching that quite a bit to sort out who that was beyond the title. I'll poke around.–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:02, 1 July 2023 (UTC)


 * First of all,
 * The current sentence is " In Lyon, Jean V and his lawyer researched documents about his actions that were held by Marshal de Vieuville, Lord of Gordes. Viète also produced a summarization of Jean V's behavior the previous year, during his administration of the city of Lyon.[34]" citing Haag p. 341
 * The version here before I started working on the article was


 * CaroleHenson (talk) 21:16, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Second, it's hard to find something in Haag, so I am going to do more research.
 * Third, when I search on: "Marshal de Vieuville" OR "Lord of Gordes", I get "Bertrand de Simiane, Lord of Gordes" for that time period - and other names hundreds of years before that - in google books and google, most coming from google books.
 * Third, when I search on: "Marshal de Vieuville" OR "Lord of Gordes", I get "Bertrand de Simiane, Lord of Gordes" for that time period - and other names hundreds of years before that - in google books and google, most coming from google books.


 * I find nothing in archive.org for that search. And nothing for "Marshal de Vieuville".–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:25, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I do know someone of the name Vieuville in this time period, but they were Robert de La Vieuville the governor of Mézières and lieutenant-general of the Rethelois. sovietblobfish (talk) 21:36, 1 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Okay.


 * Next, I am searching for the events around this particular assisignation involving Guise, Parthenay, Viète, and Lord of Godes (complicated a smidge by Poltrot killing Claude, Duke of Guise)–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:38, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Nicola Sutherland wrote an article specifically on the assassination, that I used when I was writing the Assassination of the Duke of Guise (1563) article, that might be worth a look.
 * Alternatively, Durot's biography of the duke of Guise is quite extensive, that might also bear fruit. sovietblobfish (talk) 21:43, 1 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Okay, thanks, and I found a book about the French Wars of Religion here, that mentions marshal Monmorency... and, there's the memoirs book that Viète wrote. I'm going to focus on the key facts that I can find and rewrite that section, whether or not a marshal shows up.–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:47, 1 July 2023 (UTC)


 * I just realized, this could become so much easier by looking at your article. Why reinvent the wheel?–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:51, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I have found this in Jean Bouhier, Traité de la dissolution
 * "Pendant ce tems Bouchehnye étoit auprès du Maréchal de la Vieuville, enfa Maifon de Duretal , tâchant à l'engagera prendre une connoifTance amiable de cette afraire entre le Sr. DuPont, & fa Femme, efpérant qu'il entendroit cette Dame,6c qu'elle lui feroit..."
 * I suspect what we are dealing with here is an archaic spelling of Vielleville's name sovietblobfish (talk) 21:52, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I am confident on this, both because I know there is no Marshal Vieuville, and because this says "Maifon de Duretal"
 * Duretal was Vielleville's residence (he was comte de Durtal), indeed its where he died. sovietblobfish (talk) 21:56, 1 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Okay, great, mystery is solved. That makes a lot of sense.


 * I am still going to work on rewriting that section - and your article is a good place to start. You did a really nice job on that! And, then work on the Parthenay part of the story.


 * I have been so over my head with this article, this is not my niche at all, but it's also been pretty interesting.–CaroleHenson (talk) 22:31, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm glad you like the article, it was the second one I ever created.
 * I must confess I have a fairly low opinion of it these days, I've learned a lot about how to put an article together since then. (Not to mention I have access to around 60 more books than I did back then)
 * Anyway, best of luck with Jean V, I'm glad to hear you've been finding your stay in this area of history interesting :) sovietblobfish (talk) 22:39, 1 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Thanks so much. Jealous about the 60 books.–CaroleHenson (talk) 02:11, 3 July 2023 (UTC)