Talk:Jean Ziegler

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The Wikimedia Foundation has had a letter of complaint about this article. Having reviewed it, and the article and talk pages, the article has been stubbed. The removed text should not be replaced. The article can be worked on carefully and any verified information put back. But this should be done with maximum care and very, very careful wording. In particular, any sources should be carefully chosen and mainstream. I'm sorry to be heavy handed here, but this is not a minor issue. Please be quick to remove anything from this article that you think problematic, and slow to add anything new. Thanks all -- sannse (talk) 20:54, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Mainstream article from Time Magazine concerning Jean Ziegler: http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,957634,00.html

New edits
Cb93, thanks for your edits to this article. Some of the stuff you added is very helpful. However, some of your language wasn't exactly what we use here. It would be appropriate for a magazine article, for example, but not an encyclopedia.

As for the Gaddafi thing: can you provide a source that says he wasn't involved in it in any way? Any good source on the subject would be appreciated. It needs to be confirmed or dismissed, or the article must discuss the controversy surrounding claims and counterclaims. IronDuke 03:20, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I understand Ziegler was on the panel that awarded first the prize and continues to be involved. UN Watch cites an article from United Press International on April 23, 1989.

Socialist deputy Jean Ziegler said a prize foundation fund in the name of Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi is registered in Geneva with capital of $10 million. Annual winners will be selected and foundation capital managed by a committee of African and European politicians and intellectuals, he said. The prize is conceived as an anti-Nobel Peace Prize award for the Third World, Ziegler said in a statement. Ziegler said committee members besides himself include Sam Nujoma, leader of the Southwest African Peoples Organization (SWAPO); Robert Charvin, honorary dean of the law faculty at Nice University in France; Nasser Cid, dean of law at Khartoum University, Sudan; and Jean-Marie Bressand, founder of the twinned cities association.

Ziegler was awarded the prize in 1992 but declined it Jamahiriya News Agency in French.

I think that a sentence along the lines of "Ziegler was a member of the panel that awarded the first Kadaffi Prize [not sure what the official title is] and was awarded the prize in 1992, though he declined to accept it." I can't source his rejection of the prize although it is stated in the French wiki, and it would be erring on the side of caution. Pontificake 09:36, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Well Ziegler also vehemently denied the fact and called it "absurd". I think that is worth including: http://youtube.com/watch?v=ehUPTdNLpLA&feature=related —Preceding unsigned comment added by Trouvaille (talk • contribs) 16:50, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Swiss banks and the Holocaust
Speaking of reliable sources, half of this section is occupied by a citation of a critical comment about the book, coming from the site http://switzerland.isyours.com, a commercial site run by Micheloud & Co., whose activity is well described here: http://switzerland.isyours.com/e/banking/index.html As required by sannse, I'll quickly remove this part. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Satanetto (talk • contribs) 20:50, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

WP:BLP and UN Watch
Hi all, UN Watch is not an independent source for allegations. Referring to sannse above, care should be taken to supply this article with *independent* sources (be it CNN, NYTimes, NZZ or whatever). --Mbimmler (talk) 19:48, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I combined both references into a single para, since it appears to originate with an agenda-driven group and has received only very limited coverage outside of that group. Guy (Help!) 23:01, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

My last addition was appropriate
Your right. I'll leave that out. However, the revision that was undone was sourced from ABC News. This is an "independent" source. I am reinstating it. (Hyperionsteel (talk) 22:51, 26 March 2008 (UTC))

Ileana Ros-Lehtinen's comments
Ileana Ros-Lehtinen is a notable person - she is a prominent Cuban-American and serves as the ranking member of the House Foreign Affairs Committee. In addition the source is legitimate (The Associated Press). I've also placed her comments in quotes and/or made clear that these are her own statements and are not facts. Also, I've added the support Ziegler received from the Swiss Government.(Hyperionsteel (talk) 01:28, 27 March 2008 (UTC))

Here is the citation I plan to insert - it is notable and is properly sourced. The fact that it doesn't paint Mr. Ziegler is a postive light doesn't mean it shouldn't be included.

''In March of 2008, Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, a Cuban-American and the ranking Republican on the House Foreign Affairs Committee sharply criticized Ziegler's appointment to as an advisor to the UN Human Rights Council. Ros-Lehtinen stated that "Mr. Ziegler has drawn criticism for his unyielding support of many of the worlds most vicious dictators. He expressed 'total support for the Cuban revolution' and its leader, Fidel Castro, whose repressive regime has left hundreds of political dissidents to languish in jail" and of failing to address famine emergencies throughout the world and of using "his platform to consistently attack America and Israel."

Switzerland's Federal Department of Foreign Affairs supported Ziegler's appointment, stating that it "attaches great importance to human rights and is pleased that a Swiss candidate will be able to contribute his expertise to the committee." ''

Direct quotes and Cuba
I cleaned up and formated the refs. These were the substantive changes: - Colfer2 (talk) 04:08, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Many paragraphs were direct quotes from cited news articles, but not indicated as quotes. Others were nearly direct.  So I converted all those to direct quotes.
 * Some quotes were not balanced to reflect what was in the article, so I expanded those.
 * The Time quote in the "Khaddafi Prize" section was misplaced. It did not support the text before it at all.  So I added a quote from the Time article.
 * I expanded the "Khaddafi Prize" description, maybe to much. The list of winners was unbalanced, notably skipping the first recipient, Nelson Mandela.  Ziegler was directly involved with that choice it seems, maybe that should be in the article.
 * I removed that assertion that Ziegler's name is still on the Libyan website for winning in 2002, as I looked at it and did not see his name, just "13 writers". In any case, it's not clear he could be held responsible for that.
 * On Cuba, among Zielger's praise, he did say one mildly negative thing, so I threw that in (and it's reflected in the title of the cited article, which like most other titles, was missing).
 * On the Cuban agents at the press conference in Geneva, I added the AP's account of the UN's spokeswoman's apology. The other source is an opinion piece in the National Post, "The farce at the UNHRC".

Gaddafi Price
I see that there is a strong urge to highlight ostensible defects in Jean Ziegler's character (I wanted to write "slander" but decided choose a neutral formulation). I don't know whose weak character and flimsy skin cannot suffer any criticism by Ziegler, nor do I really want to.

Anyway, I noticed that all sources supplied to prove the Ziegler-Gaddafi-relationship say Neue Zürcher Zeitung (NZZ) on the surface but actually link to UN Watch, incidentally the very institute that makes the accusations in the first place. I don't think accusations prove accusations. Could anyone please supply independent sources, for example by pointing to the actual "real" NZZ pages? SomPost 18:14, 01 December 2006 (UTC)


 * The problem here and some other sources is, that it only relys on unwatch (meaning, they say "unwatch reported that: "..."") and then this quotes are cited as if it would be there own information and not just reporting the reader what unwatch is arguing. That's manipulation then to quote that as different sources. --85.176.168.98 (talk) 01:47, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Ziegler is on the list - look closer at the website
Look closer at the website - Zielger is on the list as a winner in 2002 - although his name is spelt differently (as "Mr. John Ziter") - I find this to be too much of a coincidence. French Holocaust denier Roger Garaudy is listed as "Mr. Rogeh Jarrodi" which suggests that the spelling is different (or the names were mispelled.)

Look at the following webpage under the 2002 winners (I find it hard to believe that Mr. John Ziter is anyone else) http://www.gaddafiprize.org/WhoEn.htm

(Hyperionsteel (talk) 22:30, 22 April 2008 (UTC))


 * The source, Weekly Standard, says he won the prize in 2002 but disowned it. How is it significant that his name is or was "still" on the official web page?  It is not his web page, or is he still on the board or something?  I don't think Wikipedia has to copy every rhetorical flourish of the original article. Another source would be handy here. The Time short article is from 1989. -Colfer2 (talk) 23:57, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Ziegler and Garaudy
This should be of interest:


 * from Le Monde, 23 April 1996, p.12


 * Title: ABBOT PIERRE QUALIFIES DENIAL AS DECEITFUL. AFTER declaring his support for Roger Garaudy, now facing civil charges for denial of crimes against humanity, Abbot Pieree attempted, on Sunday 21 April, to calm the passions aroused by his statements (in Le Monde, 21-22 April). In a comunique, the founder of the Emmaus Companions asserts that he views "denial and revisionism as intellectual and moral deception, to be fought at all costs". Abbot Pierre specifies, however, that "to assimilate Garaudy's works, as a researcher and historian, to denial and revisionism would be false".


 * For his part, Jean Ziegler, the Swiss writer who signed a letter of support for Roger Garaudy, told us, on Monday 22 April, that he "most firmly condemned all revisionist activity or ideas whose purpose is to deny or to minimize the genocide of the Jewish people by the Nazis". He assures us that his letter of support to Mr. Garaudy, "expressed his respect for the latter's battle against all fundamentalisms -- and Muslim fundamentalism, in particular".

I'm not certain if this is the last word on the subject, but it's enough to cast some doubt on the authors who have presumed a close bond between Ziegler and Garaudy. And please bear in mind that we're not obligated to chronicle every drive-by smear against controversial public figures. CJCurrie (talk) 04:35, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Superscript text==Ziegler gave Holocaust denier Garaudy the Qaddafi Prize in 2002 ==

No, CJcurrie, read carefully the news reports from 1989 (Time Magazine, etc.) and 2002 (AFP), Neue Zurcher Zeitung 2006, Beobachter 2009: Ziegler helped set up the Qaddafi prize in 1989; he remained on the board of the Nord Sud 21 front organization that manages the Prize, when it was awarded to Garaudy in 2002 (same ceremony in Libya where Ziegler picked up his own prize, then denied it, but NZZ confirmed his dept. in U. Geneva received it). You cannot dispute the fact -- not presumption -- that in 1996 and again in 2002 he has knowingly supported Garaudy in exceptional ways, or has failed to distance himself when morally others would, even if he issued that disclaimer against Holocaust denial.

Sources:

Azure: http://www.azure.org.il/download/magazine/az32%20neuer%20fin.pdf 2009 article (German) in Swiss magazine Beobachter: http://www.beobachter.ch/justiz-behoerde/auslaender/artikel/fragwuerdige-gaeste-in-genf/ NZZ (in German) on Ziegler: http://blog.unwatch.org/?p=130 The Guardian: http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/alan_johnson/2008/04/appointment_with_farce.html Documentary on Jean Ziegler: http://www.unwatch.org/site/c.bdKKISNqEmG/b.1289203/apps/s/content.asp?ct=5132423

Protests against Ziegler's abuses:

Letter by Norwegian parliamentarians opposing his UN nomination: http://blog.unwatch.org/wp- Letter by Gemrna MEP Alexander Graf Lambsdoff: http://blog.unwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/mep-letter-protesting-jean- Protests of NGOs against Ziegler: http://blog.unwatch.org/?p=130 Condemnations by Annan's spokesman and High Commissioner Louise Arbour: http://www.unwatch.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=bdKKISNqEmG&b=1316871&ct=1747981 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Erica Doebbler (talk • contribs) 00:48, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Even if accurate, the first part of this is a violation of WP:SYNTH and the other sources you're provided are either partisan or unencyclopedic. There's certainly room for criticism of Ziegler in this article, but we shouldn't turn it into an attack piece.  CJCurrie (talk) 05:11, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I think you need to be more specific than that. So far, unpersuasive. IronDuke  03:38, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't see why you keep using the UN watch link for that NZZ article. The original article can be found here (in german): http://www.nzz.ch/2006/06/25/il/articlee8t7c_1.42071.html UN Watch hardly constitutes a neutral source, and the guardians article is actually a partisan editorial which doesn't point out its sources in its supposed facts. Interestingly according to the article J. Ziegler pretends that this is a politically motivated attempt at defamation from UN Watch's part. I'm more worried about Erica Doebbler repeated attempt to delete the parts about J. Ziegler role in the Swiss Banks and Holocaust case. He was one of the more vocal actors in Switzerland and is still remembered for that over here (quite bitterly from the Swiss conservative circles). Don_Durandal (talk) 10:40, 6 h 2009 (UTC)

Question
Is anyone of the opinion that "Relationship with Castro, Gadaffi, Mengistu, Mugabe, Saddam Hussein, and Kim Jong Il" is a proper subject header for this article? CJCurrie (talk) 00:47, 7 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, I would have to vote yes, as I created it, but that was to move it out of the lead, mostly. What did you have in mind as a section header title? IronDuke  02:45, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Notwithstanding my own question (which I'll acknowledge was mostly rhetorical), I think the problem here goes much deeper than just the section header title.

David Aaronovitch's article raises several issues that can, and should, be covered in any biographical article about Jean Ziegler. The problem is that he doesn't provide very much information about any of them. This is not particularly surprising, given that his article is not about Jean Zeigler. It's about the United Nations and Richard Falk, with only a passing reference to Ziegler near the end.

This reference reads as follows:


 * But what is even more amazing is that some Western countries agree to play this game. Three weeks ago the Swiss, using a glossy brochure, persuaded the Council by 40 votes to 7 to elect a Jean Ziegler to its advisory committee. Professor Ziegler is an apologist for Fidel Castro and Colonel Gadaffi, a former associate of the Ethiopian dictator General Mengistu, a defender of Robert Mugabe (who, he said, had “history and morality with him”), a visitor to Saddam Hussein and Kim Il Jong, and an admirer of the French Holocaust denier, Roger Garaudy.


 * Do I need to add that he is also an outspoken critic of American imperialism and of Israel? I invite - and would enjoy reading - the Swiss Ambassador's defence of his country's nomination, but it's time to draw a conclusion.

There’s no context here, and more seriously there's very little content. It’s mostly just a series of names cobbled together.

Aaronovitch’s article may meet the minimum technical requirements for being used as a source, but it’s not very informative and there's no requirement that we keep it if better sources exist. Fortunately, they do.

It's not particularly easy to find reliable information about Ziegler written in English, but I've managed to find credible sources that provide more information about many of the points raised by Aaronovitch. I've also managed to find more substantive criticisms of Ziegler's appointment, from organizations such as the American Jewish Committee and figures such as Irwin Cotler.

My proposal, then, is that we expand the article by adding more relevant information, and remove the Aaronovitch quote entirely.

Regarding the specifics:

I'm going to bypass Ziegler's relationship with Castro, as this is already covered in the article.

(i) Ziegler's involvement with the Gaddafi Prize is already covered in this article, but I believe it would be worthwhile for us to add the following information:


 * Nelson Mandela, the black South African leader, has been named the first winner of the $250,000 Gadhafi International Human Rights Prize, an "anti-Nobel Peace Prize for the Third World," officials said Sunday.


 * Socialist deputy Jean Ziegler said a prize foundation fund in the name of Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi is registered in Geneva, with capital of $10 million. The awards committee includes the leader of the Southwest African Peoples Organization and deans of law schools in France and the Sudan. A ceremony for Mandela, imprisoned or under house arrest for 25 years, will take place in Geneva on June 10.

("MANDELA WINS GADHAFI PRIZE", The Record, 24 April 1989)


 * GENEVA Jailed South African nationalist leader Nelson Mandela has been chosen to be the first recipient of a $250,000 human rights prize donated by Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi, a Swiss legislator announced Sunday.


 * The award ceremony will take place June 10 in Geneva, said Jean Ziegler, one of the panel members administering the fund.


 * Mandela, president of the outlawed African National Congress, has been serving a life sentence for the past 25 years.

("Gadhafi honors Mandela", Chicago Sun-Times, 24 April 1989, p. 12)

(ii) "a former associate of the Ethiopian dictator General Mengistu"

Some sources, including Alan Johnson’s ‘’Guardian’’ article, have described Ziegler as having helped Mengistu draft Ethiopia’s one-party state constitution in 1986. I have not been able to find confirmation of this. I have, however, discovered that Ziegler was involved in famine relief efforts in Ethiopia in 1985.


 * Sta correndo dietro le orme di Sant'Egidio o dei simboli dell'antipolitica che sono Lady D, o Jovanotti, o Bob Geldof. Sta riscoprendo le proprie radici terzomondiste: le stesse radici che facevano dire al sociologo svizzero Jean Ziegler, durante la carestia in Etiopia nell'85: ""Il mondo in cui viviamo e' un immenso campo di sterminio: 40.000 esseri umani muoiono di fame ogni giorno. L'ordine del mondo e' abitato da una dialettica negativa: i ricchi sono sempre piu' ricchi, i poveri sempre piu' poveri".

("L'AFRICA, IL DEBITO E IL RAP DIPLOMAZIA PUNK. "JUBILEE 2000" - CAMPAGNA PER LA CANCELLAZIONE DEI...", La Stampa, 27 February 2000)

I'm not against including some mention of the "Mengistu" allegation in this article, but I think we should mention this side of his involvement with Ethiopia as well.

(I should add that I’d be quite interested in finding a reliable source that documents Ziegler’s involvement with Ethiopia’s 1986 constitution.  Assuming there’s anything tangible to this accusation, my suspicion is that he was probably involved on food issues.  Does anyone have a source?)

(iii) "a defender of Robert Mugabe"

This seems to refer to an interview that Ziegler gave in 2002. Here's a more detailed take on the matter:


 * Eminent Swiss sociologist Jean Ziegler has defended Zimbabwean President Robert Mugabe's controversial land reforms, saying he has "history and morality on his side."


 * In an interview published Thursday in the Swiss weekly L'Hebdo, Ziegler, who is also the United Nations Commission for Human Rights special rapporteur for the right to food, said, however, that the land reforms were being undertaken "in a despicable context.


 * "In a democracy, we would witness an equitable distribution of the property titles to rural communities. That would be totally acceptable."


 * Saying he was speaking in a personal capacity, and not in his role as UN rapporteur, Ziegler said "agrarian reforms are an absolute necessity" in Zimbabwe and its southern neighbour, South Africa.


 * "South Africa is threatened by a social disaster because it has not touched white lands. The whites are the colonisers... they are not people who came after independence and bought their land. They are on despoiled land."

("Swiss sociologist defends Zimbabwean land reforms", Agence France-Presse, 22 August 2002.)

I think the most correct course of action would be to cite the original press reports on the matter.

(iv) "a visitor to Saddam Hussein"

There's actually an interesting story here, which should definitely be mentioned in the article.

During the buildup to the 1990 Gulf War, Saddam Hussein took several Swiss nationals in Iraq as hostages. An independent Swiss delegation sought to secure their release; Ziegler was a member of this group. Prior to that, he attempted to work with Ahmed Ben Bella as an intermediary.


 * In Zurich, a Swiss parliamentarian was reported as saying former Algerian president Ahmed Ben Bella was interceding with Saddam to seek the release of 80 Swiss trapped in Iraq.


 * The Swiss News Agency quoted Geneva deputy Jean Ziegler as saying Ben Bella would make clear Switzerland wanted the hostages freed without conditions.


 * A foreign ministry spokesman was unable to confirm whether Ben Bella had already intervened on the hostages' behalf.

("ITALY CRITICISES EC PARTNERS' EFFORTS TO FREE GULF HOSTAGES", Reuters News, 16 October 1990)


 * The Zurich group -- comprising 16 Swiss and 20 other Europeans -- disembarked from a Swissair aircraft.


 * The former hostages, many wearing thin summer clothes, shivered in the cold as they were shepherded into a hangar to be greeted with hugs and kisses by relatives and friends.


 * The four Swiss parliamentarians with the hostages attacked the Swiss government, which had refused to give their mission official backing and was not represented at the welcome ceremony.


 * "All 24 Swiss would be here tonight if Berne had shown just one signal of gratitude and understanding to the Iraqis," delegation leader Edgar Oehler told reporters.


 * Despite pleading by the delegation, the Iraqi authorities refused to allow eight other Swiss nationals to leave.


 * Oehler and another deputy, Jean Ziegler, said the Swiss government could help the hostages still detained in Iraq by allowing the export of medicines and powdered milk for children.


 * They said they had seen babies dying in hospitals because there was no milk or antibiotics.


 * The Swiss government insists it will not exchange medicines for hostages, but has already approved the export to Iraq of 19 million Swiss francs' (15 million dollars') worth of medicines not proscribed by the United Nations embargo against Iraq.

(Samantha McArthur, "91 HOSTAGES FREED FROM IRAQ ARRIVE BACK IN EUROPE", Reuters News, 22 November 1990)

I've also discovered that Ziegler sought to offer exile to Saddam Hussein in 2003, as a means of preventing the invasion of Iraq. The Swiss cabinet did not take up the proposal. (sources: "Swiss rights campaigner urges Swiss exile for Saddam", Agence France Presse, 5 February 2003; Irene Harnischberg, "U.S. military planes banned from Swiss airspace except for Iraq surveillance, aid missions", Associated Press Newswires, 21 February 2003, 11:50 am.)

Some of Ziegler’s critics also say that he met with Saddam Hussein in 1993. I can’t find confirmation of this, but it wouldn’t be surprising given the role he held with the UN at the time.

(v) “A visitor to Kim Il Jong”

I haven’t been able to determine if Ziegler has actually met with Kim Jong-Il in 1993 (per Alan Johnson), but it wouldn’t be terribly surprising if he did. Consider the following:


 * ’’The World Food Programme has supplied more than one million tonnes of aid to North Korea to help up to eight million people, but no one knows what has become of this aid, said MSF.’’


 * ’’Jean Ziegler, a special UN rapporteur said in June that some of the aid had been taken by the army, the country's secret services and the government.’’

(“North Korean government hiving off food aid for itself: MSF”, ‘’Agence France-Presse’’, 30 July 2001.)


 * ’’ North Korea should also accept repeated requests for a visit by Jean Ziegler, the U.N. Special Rapporteur on the right to food, and help establish an accountable network for aid distribution, including in areas where World Food Programme officials are currently not allowed to visit. Furthermore, North Korea should allow visits by U.N. officials working on freedom of expression and religion.’’

(Kay Seok, “Speak Out About Human Rights In North Korea”, ‘’The Asian Wall Street Journal’’, 16 April 2004.)


 * ’’Devant les représentants des Etats massés mercredi et jeudi pour l'écouter dans un auditoire comble de l'ONU, le rapporteur spécial en est cependant vite venu à ce qui lui importe vraiment: les crises politiques qui provoquent des crises alimentaires. Le Darfour d'abord, bien sûr, au Soudan. Puis la Corée du Nord. Mais à peine Ziegler avait-il prononcé ce nom qu'il a dû se taire. Le représentant du régime de Kim Jong-il voulait la parole, immédiatement. Son pays s'appelle République démocratique et populaire de Corée, et il se sentait insulté. Le Genevois s'est excusé de son léger dérapage oral, mais le diplomate ne voulait rien savoir: «C'est la même chose dans votre texte.» Puis il a accusé le rapporteur de colporter des accusations infondées sur les privations de nourriture en Corée. Jean Ziegler avait une réponse toute prête: «J'ai demandé à cinq reprises de pouvoir me rendre à Pyongyang, et cinq fois vous avez refusé!»’’

(Alan Campiotti, “Jean Ziegler défend les petits pêcheurs, oublie les criquets et prend une volée de bois vert”, ‘’Le Temps’’, 29 October 2004.)

I think a few lines about Ziegler's efforts in North Korea would be in order.

(vi) Ziegler and Roger Garaudy

I've already addressed the nature of this association, and will refer readers once again to ‘’Le Monde’’, 23 April 1996, p. 12.


 * ’’De son côté, l'essayiste suisse Jean Ziegler, qui avait signé une lettre de soutien à Roger Garaudy, nous a déclaré, lundi 22 avril, condamner « avec la plus grande fermeté toutes les entreprises ou propos négationnistes visant à nier ou à relativiser le génocide du peuple juif par les nazis ». Il assure que sa lettre de soutien à M. Garaudy « exprimait le respect éprouvé devant son combat contre les intégrismes, et notamment l'intégrisme musulman.’’

(translation)


 * ’’For his part, Jean Ziegler, the Swiss writer who signed a letter of support for Roger Garaudy, told us, on Monday 22 April, that he "most firmly condemned all revisionist activity or ideas whose purpose is to deny or to minimize the genocide of the Jewish people by the Nazis". He assures us that his letter of support to Mr. Garaudy, "expressed his respect for the latter's battle against all fundamentalisms -- and Muslim fundamentalism, in particular".’’

There’s still plenty of room to question Ziegler’s judgement in this matter, but I think we'd our best course of action is to quote ‘’Le Monde’’ directly.

(vii) Criticisms of Ziegler

At this stage, some readers may wonder if my intent is to remove criticism of Ziegler from this article. This is not my intent; I only want to ensure that substantive criticism is presented in a fair manner.

I believe that we should include criticisms of Ziegler's nomination from groups such as the American Jewish Committee and an independent coalition led by Irwin Cotler. It's important that we cite the objections to his appointment in a clear and open manner, while avoiding sensationalism and the risk of quote-farming.

My adjustments to this article will follow in a few moments. Constructive engagement is welcome; blanket reverting is discouraged.

One final point: Other readers of this page should be aware of a recent ArbComm decision on Wikipedia articles pertaining the Israel-Palestine issue. I think it's clear from this ruling that community standards toward these articles need to change. The destructive edit wars of the past need to end, and all editors should make a serious effort to avoid the partisanship that has plagued this area for too long.

I've made a serious effort to improve this article, and have tried to represent criticisms of Ziegler in a fair manner. I hope my efforts will be reciprocated. CJCurrie (talk) 04:03, 13 May 2009 (UTC)


 * "Constructive engagement is welcome; blanket reverting is discouraged." Is this meant as irony? I'm asking seriously, as you yourself are making blanket reverts. "The destructive edit wars of the past need to end" Okay... again: irony? "...all editors should make a serious effort to avoid the partisanship that has plagued this area for too long." Would you call yourself "non-partisan" here? I'm genuinely curious. IronDuke  23:07, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

A small biography and a HUGE text about controversies. This text is not at any point neutral. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.198.42.81 (talk) 13:35, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

A general comment
For some reason, this article is on my watchlist - I may have edited it at some point in the past, though I don't remember when or why, or perhaps I just decided to watch it. In any event, I know very little about the subject.

My comment is therefore general in nature. I think that as a stylistic matter (as a minimum!) having a very short biography and then pages and pages of controversy is not a proper way to write an encyclopedia article. Having no expertise on this particular subject, and no interest in working to acquire it, I won't try to fix it myself. But I would appreciate - for my broader understanding of the kinds of issues in play in a biography like this, as well as to try to help facilitate you all in finding a better way - a discussion of how we might improve the entry.

I suppose the problem here, at core, is that Mr. Ziegler is mostly famous for having made a lot of fairly dramatic and controversial pronouncements. Therefore, most of the coverage of him is likely to be about controversies.

But without taking sides at all, I would note that - as an example - his interactions with North Korea, which we include as one of the "Controversies" doesn't sound particularly controversial at all. He had a UN position relating to the "Right to Food" and he asked to visit North Korea in relation to accusations that the army took food aid. Sounds like a normal part of his job.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:27, 7 June 2010 (UTC)


 * It was controversial with the NKorean government, rather than the usual critics in western countries. I would assume... AnonMoos (talk) 01:15, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed, but that's not normally a reason to call something a "controversy". He's a guy involved in human rights work and politics in general - there's almost always something that someone will call controversial, but that doesn't mean it belongs in a "controversies" section.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:00, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Jimbo, I would agree that having almost the entire article under the heading of "controversies" is a bad idea. I'm still mulling how to change it, but what are your thoughts about using the word "controversial" to describe JZ in the lead? Certainly, the article as written supports that view. IronDuke  16:49, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

BLPN
There's a discussion about this article at the Biographies of Living Persons Noticeboard.Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:12, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I've reorganized the article a bit, but have not removed the POV tag that's been at the top of the article for more than two years. Since it's been there so long, perhaps it would be helpful if editors who know more than I do about the subject would briefly summarize their views about why this article does or doesn't have a POV problem.Anythingyouwant (talk) 07:39, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm through for now revising the article. Most of what I've done is rephrasing, reorganizing, fixing dead links, and the like.  I have not attempted any major substantive changes, and have not used any search engines to see what info generally exists about this subject.  The POV tag was inserted years ago by an editor who has not edited Wikipedia in more than two years. That editor objected to exclusive use of "conservative press" as sources.  Whatever the situation was in 2008, looking over the footnotes now shows a wide range of mainstream news sources.  So, I'll tentatively remove the POV tag.Anythingyouwant (talk) 00:09, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

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