Talk:Jedi/Archive 1

Midichlorian Count
Recently the 20,000 figure for Anakin was removed under the belief that it was from SuperShadow. However, this figure is a direct quote from Obi-Wan in Episode I, so I added it back in. From what I've read, SuperShadow had a list of all the counts for all the characters, and all the other numbers seem to have been made up - but the 20K figure is "real".--Daniel 17:05, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

A Disagreement
"The earliest description of this "energy field" would be akin to that of pran, of which pranayama is a systematic practice originating in India and a part of yoga (which predates, and is the basis for, Chinese martial arts)" (From this article)

As a Chinese person who has some knowledge about the origins of Chinese spirituality and theism, I must say I disagree with this assertion. The Chinese system, though similar to the Indian system in many ways, has its own independent origins in the most ancient religious traditions of China itself. It is not primarily based on the Indian way even though there are some influences. It is usually the Hindu nationalists who like to claim that essentially all religious concepts originated in India, including many concepts in Christianity. Just because two spiritual systems have many similarities does not mean one is the basis of the other, there is also a lot of similarities between Hinduism and the mystical traditions of Christianity. Would you say Christianity is based on Hinduism also?

Unless someone can come up with definite evidence of transmission from India to China of the most basic elements of the Chinese spiritual system and martial arts, this claim remains unfounded, and it is far more likely that Chinese martial arts have independent origins.

Remember the oldest forms of Chinese martial arts date back to at least the Zhou Dynasty (1122 - 256 BC), which is as old as the oldest written texts of the Hindu civilisation. (The previous older Indus Valley civilisation vanished and to this day people can't even understand its written language) And there is no good evidence of significant contact between India and China during this period. Buddhism first arrived in China from India during the Han Dynasty (202 BC - 220 AD).

Force and Islam
The article notes that the five towers of the Jedi Temple on Coruscant are related to the Five Pillars of Islam. Since the Temple was built (and destroyed) a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away I fail to see how this is possible. If you mean to say that the five towers of the Jedi Temple are an allusion or symbolic reference to Islam I would like very much to see a source cited for this claim. The philosophy of the Jedi does not appear in any way to resemble the "submission to the will of Allah" that is central to Islam. As such, the notion that the Jedi Temple's five pillars are in any way associated with Islam strikes me as absurd. - posted by Caelarch on 14:58, 28 December 2005 (UTC)


 * The article says, "Its principles resemble some real-world religions like Hinduism, the Shinto religion of Japan, certain Celtic druidic concepts, Islamic theological ideas (the Jedi Temple is composed of five pillars symbolising the peace of the five pillars of Islam), and certain tenets of ascetic and mystic Christianity." The point is, not actual association, but the inspiration and parallels seen by observers of this fictional entity, and possibly by the writer (George Lucas).  It is in no way attempting to connect real-world religions with fictional ones, even as fiction often derives from the real world. - CobaltBlueTony 20:05, 28 December 2005 (UTC)


 * In which case the language in parens "the Jedi Temple is composed of five pillars symbolising the peace of the five pillars of Islam" is misleading, as it suggests that the Jedi Temple was designed by the Jedi (or by Lucas and the magic makers at ILM) as an intentional reference to Islam. I have never heard such a suggestion, and would like to see a source other than the fact that the Jedi Temple happens to have five towers (not really pillers, since they are structures that are lived in/used). Otherwise someone could just as easily say that the Jedi draw from Discordianism and the Law of Five, and that's why there are five towers.  Of course, the most likely explanation is it just looked cool.  Regardless, without some support I think the statement that the Jedi philosphy resembles certain Islamic ideas (among other real world religious ideas) can stand, but the attribution of the Five Pillars to the five Jedi Temple towers is stretched at best. Caelarch 01:26, 29 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Ummm no actually it says "resemble" - it does not state whether this is intentional or not so Mr Lucas's mood or thinking is irrelevant. Much like a reader can pull from a poem meaning that were both intended by the author and not. ABCGi 12:00, 7 February 2006 (GMT)

Age of training
I am not familiar with "canonical" sources for Star Wars, but I do remember that an objection to Anakin being a padawan was that it was too late for him to be effectively trained. How old was he in the movie? He looked younger than 12.


 * He was supposed to be 9 in Episode 1. Prior to the Padawan stage, young Force-sensitive individuals would undergo extensive training in the Force as children, like the scene in Episode 2 where Yoda is instructing a class of little kids in lightsaber use. Presumably this is what they meant by that.


 * Jedi training actually began much earlier than a young-kid age. If newborns even showed the slightest hint of force sensitivity, they were taken and raised in Jedi observation. Information from Star Wars comics.


 * "He was supposed to be 10 in Episode 1." Actually, he was nine.

he was nine. rogue planet takes place three years after episode one and he was twelve during that

The Force as religion
Religion? Maybe, I don't know. Jedi's don't necessarily 'worship' the Force. (even less so with the pathetic introduction of midichlorians).


 * Uh, not every religion has to worship something. Buddhists don't worship Buddha. --Kross 05:38, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)


 * That holds only for certain sects. Many of the Mahayana sects, for instance, do worship the Buddha (and more than one at that). --Maru  (talk) Contribs 06:09, 19 November 2005 (UTC)


 * "Religion? Maybe, I don't know. Jedi's don't necessarily 'worship' the Force." Han Solo and Grand Moff Tarkin called it a religion. Of course, that might just be because they don't beileve in it. You're right in that the Jedi themselves probably don't consider it a religion. By the way, I think that "Jedi" is both the singular and the plural.


 * It is. They are referred to as "Jedi" in both singular and plural.  And, given the monklike aspect of the Jedi, one can pretty much assume that the Jedi ARE a part of a religion - devout believers in the Force who allow themselves to be the perfect vessels for it, and devote their lives to it, seeking to remain humble (as shown by their clothing), and having very few posessions (with exception of their lightsaber, of course).  MasterXiam 04:16, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

In star wars episode IV I rember somthing about Han solo saying somthing about he doesn't belive in the reigonabout there being a froce that connects every living thing toghther.#REDIRECT --Scott3 23:43, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Disambig question
Question: What about the acronym for the "Japanese-English Dictionary Interface"? -- AllyUnion (talk) 10:43, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Wouldn't that be all caps: JEDI rather than Jedi? --Aidje 17:48, 2005 Mar 21 (UTC)

Mysterious Jedi
What about Sifo-Dyas, who was mentioned, but not seen, in "Attack of the Clones"? I have a theory he was Yoda's mentor, but is this true? Is anything known about Sifo-Dyas, other than the fact that he died before the Clone Wars? --Anon.


 * Only speculation; no facts are known other than what you mentioned. It looks to me like there was a Sifo-Dyas, and he died, and then someone else used his name; possibly Dooku or Palpatine. Or maybe he died shortly after ordering the clone army. Or maybe he didn't even die (ooooo). I'm thinking maybe we don't really know anything about him. --Aidje 17:48, 2005 Mar 21 (UTC)

Actually, Sifo Dyas was the Head of the Jedi High Council until he died. Then, Yoda became the Head of Council.

Distinction
Just my opinion, but shouldn't this page have a little bit of separation between the Jedi training and culture pre- and post-Ruusan since they're pretty different IMO.

Actually, Sifo Dyas was the head of the Jedi Council. When his death occured, Yoda became the Head of Council.

List of Jedi
I redid the Jedi List, because, frankly, it was a mess.

In the future:
 * Don't put Sith on this list, as they have their own page. They should only go here if they were a Jedi at one stage, and in that case, they should be listed under their Jedi name (ie Anakin Skywalker, not Darth Vader.)
 * Also, General Grievous is not a Jedi or a Sith, so he shouldn't be on either list.

Types of Jedi
This seems to be lifted from the RPGs/computer games. In the RPG, it is explicit that Guardian and Consular refer to archetypal Jedi, not any actual divisions within the Order itself. Does this section serve any informative purpose?


 * I guess that's why it says "types" rather than "ranks". I agree that this section seems little weird. All I know about it is that people like to use the whole Guardian/Consular thing in their lightsaber speculations (I don't really play video games or RPGs &mdash; I have more important things to do for the most part). I would love for this section to be removed. --Aidje 15:13, 2005 Mar 23 (UTC)

I deleted them, but someone felt the need to restore them. Can we have a discussion as to why? Like I said, "Types of Jedi" seems to serve no informative purpose. It's not based on the source material. The material where it originated, the SWRPG, says it's not based on source material. As the distinctions do not exist in the films or the EU, I would suggest this information is about as useful as dividing Jedi up into "heights," Keirsey temperment types, or levels of coolness.

The librarian and watchmen notes perhaps could go under Ranks as a side note, and should include an indication of the source material.

Quotes
I've started a quote section, as starting an encyclopedic article with a quote isn't very encyclopedic. --Cammoore 11:01, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Why not? If the quote is relevant, as it is in this case, it's perfect to put those two quotes there.
 * Also, since this is purely fictional, starting with something "real" (as in a quote) should be just fine. --LG-&#29356;&#22812;&#21449; 06:57, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)


 * Well before it had a quote before the very opening sentence. --Cammoore 08:57, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * An epigraph always struck me as good practice, since it is original source material, it allows one to add a quote elegantly that might not fit in the prose well, and a well-chosen quote can summarize or give a twist to an article (ex. the Dooku article). --Maru  (talk) Contribs 06:09, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Jedi Code
This page seems to conflict with the Jedi Code listed here in Wikipedia. --qrc 04:47, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)

I do not think "There is no chaos; there is harmony." is correct. This is the first time I have seen this line in the Jedi Code. 19:39, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

You are correct, it is not really part of the code, although I've seen it online before. I think some fan/s liked it and threw it in there. I changed the article to reflect the code as Lucasfilm's official Star Wars site lists it. --Daniel 21:35, 5 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Xolatron has added back in the line "There is no chaos, there is harmony". THIS IS NOT PART OF THE JEDI CODE. The Code has precisely FOUR lines. See the following official Lucasarts-approved sources for reference...


 * 1) Star Wars: The Roleplaying Game, D6 first edition, West End Games (1987), page 69.
 * 2) The Star Wars Encyclopedia, Del Rey (1998), page 149.
 * 3) Star Wars: The Roleplaying Game, D20 Revised, Wizards of the Coast (2002) 174.
 * -and last but not least, today's webpage from Lucasarts' own www.starwars.com...

http://www.starwars.com/databank/updates/news20010613.html

I have since discovered that the extra line appears in only one official source and that is the computer game "Knights of the Old Republic" (KOTOR). However, there have since been products released by or approved by Lucasarts which use the standard 4-line code that has been around since the 80s. Furthermore, their currect site (above) features the 4-line version. My guess is that this extra line "snuck past" Lucasarts. --Daniel 01:21, 17 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry for putting that in there - I was going by KOTOR (well, obviosly). Perhaps we should at least put a note about the fifth line, however. It appears in many places (which probably took it from KOTOR). I mean, if we're putting in the other alternative code, why not a note about this line? -Xol 04:42, 8 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I guess that's reasonable, since KOTOR is a LucasArts product (even if it does seem anomalous). I think you're right that the other places got it from KOTOR. I've since discovered the origin of the 4-line code was a few decades earlier, first appearing in the West End Games' Star Wars the Roleplaying Game back in the 80s. I'm going to alter the entry now - let me know what you think... --Daniel 23:50, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Links
This page has little to offer in fact. George Lucas' "Jedi" are named for the jedai-geki genre, sort of period samurai movies.

As another note, why is someones yahoo profile linked in the links section? --DeMyztikX 03:09, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Utapau
Seeing as how this planet is featured prominently in Episode 3, is it truly "mythic" and "lost" as this article suggests?

Ignore me
Ignore my change until such a time arises that you don't ignore it. --Consumed Crustacean | Talk | 03:54, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Question
I had someone ask me this earlier and I just don't know.

"what are the Jedi called that wear grey robes and don't follow the light or dark side?"

I was thinking that they meant 'Dark Jedi' or some sort of nuetral sect but I honestly have no idea. Thanks for your help. :D -Aluna


 * Grey Jedi are mostly neutral, but some still fight with the honor of a Jedi.  They just use both light and dark side powers. -Jedi Striker

- Grey Jedi are more commonly referred to as Shadow Jedi and are found in the Young Jedi Knights books series. They use both the light and dark sides of the force, some tend more to the light side, others more to the dark side and some are neutral. All depends on the individual shadow jedi -- Taj

Images
Am I the only one who thinks this article should have some pictures? Of Jedi, like Qui-Gon, Yoda, or some others? --Kross 08:02, May 25, 2005 (UTC)

d20 vs D&D

 * ("It should be noted that this is Dungeons and Dragons style Star Wars only.)"

If I'm not mistaken, shouldn't this say d20 instead of D&D? D&D's a game, d20 is the game system. Therefore, unless anyone has any objections, I'll be changing it to read:


 * "(It should be noted that this is from the d20-style Star Wars games only.)"

--Ynos 15:46, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Is style even proper to have there? It's not D20 style, it is a D20 System game. It is in the style of Dungeons and Dragons. It is not only in the style of a D20 game, it is a D20 game. Of course, that could be based on the the fact that the KotOR games are D20 Style, but not strictly D20. Perhaps I defeated my own point, but I still think the word "style" is unneeded. --DeMyztikX 03:09, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Flaw in ranking

 * "Jedi Master - a Jedi Knight who manages to instruct a Padawan and successfully train him or her to the level of a Jedi Knight. [...] However, it is important to note that simply training a Padawan to Knight status is not merit enough to become a Jedi Master."

Okay, anybody else notice a flaw there? --Anon.

Lol, it's contradictory.

No, read it again...its saying that to become a master you must at train a padawan to knight but that is not all. I personally think that a jedi also has to show a certain mastery of the force. But yeah, its not a contradiction. --EG

The Lost Twenty
Is there anyway to fit this into the article? --Kross 22:59, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

merged topics
Someone had created a separate article about Jedi spirits, so I just copied and pasted that pic & info into this article. --Kross 20:35, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

Cleaning this up
First of all, the Consular/Guardian/Sentinel division is pure game mechanics. It never plays any role even in the KOTOR storyline, let alone other movies/games/books where it isn't even mentioned. Game stats are never considered canon (see Star Wars canon). I think this piece should be deleted.


 * I think it can stay as long as it is clear that it isn't really canon. The article doesn't have to be restricted to just what we see in the movies or read in the books; it's about everything related to the Jedi, which includes what you see in KOTOR. &mdash;qrc 08:12, Jun 24, 2005 (UTC)

Also, the Order was already centralized on Coruscant millennia before the Battle of Ruusan (in KOTOR, for instance, although the main Council is never shown, only the enclave on Dantooine). Although it can be assumed that after KOTOR II the restored Jedi Order chose not to return to Coruscant. Also, perhaps "Youngling" should be changed to "Apprentice". Brainwashed Revan was called an apprentice before being given the Padawan rank. --Anon.


 * A "Padawan" is the word that the Jedi use for "Apprentice"; they're the same thing. Padawan refers specifically to a younger Jedi in personal training under a Jedi Knight or Master; the Padawan could also be referred to as an apprentice.  Younglings are not apprentices as they train in groups, nonpersonally. &mdash;qrc 08:12, Jun 24, 2005 (UTC)

Jedi Grandmaster?
From where did the rank "Jedi Grandmaster" come? Is it canon? It seems to list Mace Windu and Yoda as Grandmasters, but their ranks don't refer to that. It's always "Master Yoda/Windu" in the movies and in their respective Wikipedia articles. Shouldn't that rank just be deleted? &mdash;qrc 08:14, Jun 24, 2005 (UTC)

Luke Skywalker was called a Grandmaster in the book 'Dark Nest III: The Swarm War' - Geekmaster

Grey Jedi
Anyway we could incorporate this into the article? Or should it go to the Sith article? --Kross 15:58, Jun 24, 2005 (UTC)


 * Nevermind. :) --Kross 03:08, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)

Number of Jedi
I've always wondered how many Jedi existed at one time; are they in the hundreds or thousands? In Attack of the Clones, Mace Windu gathers most of his Jedi to fight and protect Obi-Wan Kenobi. Disappointingly, not many Jedi showed up. It may be nice to add this bit of information (how many Jedi usually exist at one time, before or even after the The Jedi Purge).


 * He gathered up as many Jedi as he could on short notice. Not all Jedi are on Coruscant at any one time, and even those that are aren't all free.
 * All the Jedi that Windu took were those who were at the Temple at that time. --Jedi Striker

Character Type
Why did someone place Qui-Gon as a Jedi Guardian? I think it's plain to see he is a Consular. Also, leave the remark about Windu's lightsaber. He is a Guardian, but he never used a blue saber, and it seems obvious that if he used a purple saber, then maybe most who have purple sabers are Guardians. Also, why is everyone placing Luke as a Guardian? His blue lightsaber was Anakin's and he got more training from Yoda than Oni-Wan, plus he built his own lightsaber and it was GREEN, the Jedi Consular color.

If you want to mess over something thats found only in the RPG and KOTOR, Luke is a guardian, observe pages 302-303 in the Star Wars Revised Core Rulebook clearly listing Luke as a guardian, and since KoToR and the RPG are the definitive (and only) sources on this, we should trust the source. I really don't think that when put up to scrutiny the blade color distinction would hold much weight, since Luke is a HUGE change in that rule as well as the fact that we see as many exceptions to the rule as we see people following that rule. When you look at it, he is definately a combat character out of the requirements of his situation. If we base the distinction on combat abilities vs force powers elsewise, Luke clearly holds powers like Move Object (which was used very poorly as seen in RotJ when 3P0 keeps wobbling), Enhance Ability, Affect Mind (poor, worked on Bib Fortuna, failed against Jabba) and Farseeing. While many of these might indicate a consular, compair them to his fighting skills at the time, he goes toe to toe with Vader on several occations, when Vader is clearly a guardian. Also, when you consider he was first trained by Obi-Wan, who is a guardian and would teach the methods of a guardian, Luke would have been started as a jedi guardian. Now, consider that the RPG does not allow you to move between Consular and Guardian, he would have to continue as a guardian regardless of who trained him (unless KoToR shows otherwise and can be proven to be more reliable than the RPG). Also, the official idea on this is that it's a matter of the crystal used in the construction of the saber and has nothing to do with the jedi themselves. "While the Jedi prefer natural crystals, only found in a few places such as the Adegan system or on Ilum, the Sith usually use synthetic crystals in their lightsabers. Crystals found on Ilum are almost always blue or green, whereas crystals from the Adegan system (and a handful of other locations) are more varied in color (for example, Mace Windu's purple crystal was not found on Ilum). The synthetic crystals used by the Sith are usually blood-red. The Jedi sanctuary on Ilum was destroyed during the Clone Wars. Thus, by the time of The New Jedi Order, lightsaber crystals are found in varied locations and tend to vary more in color than those of the old Jedi Order." (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20050707jc69) unknown where they got it from, but they made the concept of Guardians and Consulars, so I'd listen to them personally. Also, it's inline with what I thought and had heard before the KotOR people started begging for the distinctions. --DeMyztikX 03:10, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Jedi classes and rank
Jedi who wield purple lightsabers are Jedi Assasins but this does not contradict the fact that Windu was a Jedi guardian for he was a Jedi Highmaster and these Jedi are allowed to wield any sort of lightsaber and wear any sort of Jedi robes. --Anon


 * Riiight... --Maru (talk) Contribs 06:09, 19 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Ahh but understand when Luke built his lightsaber, the whole ranking system was gone. He also made a synthetic crystal instead of fining a natural crystal. As for a purple blade being a Jedi Assassin, think about it. Assassins are like snipers. They commit murder. Pure and simple. In a war with soldiers or Force users, it's a face to face battle. Either side can win. With Smipers and assassins, that is not true. Snipers kill from a distance and without their target having a real chance to defend themselves. Assassins kill from the shadows. Now does an assassin truly sound like something that a Jedi would do? No. That's another reason that the Sith in KOTOR II had an assassin class.


 * Mace was a Guardian but he broke from traditions and made a crystal and it was meant to be blue but it overcooked and came out violet. --Anon

Jedi are not assasins.

Is Yoda better than Windu?
The answer to this is no. I gave rankings to each of these jedi highmasters in relevance to their experience, skills, accomplishments, force ability, wisdom, agility and strength. I gave Yoda 53/70 and i gave windu 58/70. I also believe Windu to be the second greatest jedi ever in the films (the first being Anakin Skywalker) and the second greatest jedi ever in the expanded universe that never fell to the dark side (the first being the jedi exile though i am not sure whether he ever fell to the dark side or not). He is definitely the greatest lightsaber combatant ever in the expanded universe including Tulak Hord an Ajunta Pall. He created Vapaad, the best lightsaber form of all and was hte only one to master it and not turn to the dark side. Yoda's lightsaber combat is extremely good but not as good as Windu's. You will notice in episode 2 and 3 that his lightsaber skill is very flashy and looks good but has little effect on either tyranus or sidious and he left himself so open that if he faced an opponent like anakin skywalker at his peak or mace windu, he would have been struck down.


 * Great, but what does this have to do with writing an encyclopedia? --&mdash; Matt Crypto 14:07, 11 August 2005 (UTC)


 * This is just like the pointless information people write on the Talk topics over at the Star Wars Wikipedia. Plus, who are you to say which Jedi is better? THAT'S MERELY YOUR OPINION. It's not the facts you have, it's your opinion. --J.Nebulax 12:14, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

Why change the picture?
This page originally had a pic from the end of ROTJ with Sebastian Shaw as Anakin. Since it was changed to Hayden Christensen in the DVD edition, I uploaded a new version of the shot. Now I see it's back to the original. I'm not sure if someone changed it deliberately, or if it was just caught up in the constant reverts this page suffers. Either way, I believe that the new version should be there, because it's the only current canonical version of the scene. It's Lucas' desired version. I'm going to change it back. --Marcg106 03:03, 17 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't, as it has historical value, and the Darth Vader article features images from the original version. --Copperchair 01:06, 18 October 2005 (UTC)


 * So what if the Vader article has the old picture? I'll change it there too. Just because it was first doesn't automatically give it the right to be there. Unless you specifically quote a Wikipedia policy on why the older picture is better than the new, I'm changing it back. Historical value is fine, but presenting the facts as they currently stand is more important. That's one of Wikipedia's greatest assets. Constantly updated information. Presenting the facts is more important than historical value. The old image might give someone the wrong impression. The Shaw Anakin ghost will most likely never been seen again in any new format. And frankly, after reading your user page, you're obviously making these changes out of dislike for the 2004 DVD Edition. Pettiness like that doesn't belong here. PS: I just read your talk page. Seems you have a tendency towards these kinds of edits. I guess there's no point in arguing this with you, then. --Marcg106 02:23, 18 October 2005 (UTC)


 * It is absurd to keep one image on the Darth Vader article and another one here. If you changed that one, I would leave the new one here. Don't you think people would be puzzled by that? All articles have images from the original releases, so why does this one have to be the exception. Furthermore, that is the way it has been for a long time, so I don't see the need for changing it. Copperchair 05:45, 21 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I think the one with Hayden Christensen should be kept up because, if people watched all the Star Wars episodes in order, they'd recognize him better than Shaw. Believe me, most people would want Hayden kept because they can identify him as Anakin better than Shaw. --Jedi Striker 10:00pm, 22 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree with the newer images of Anakin, for two reasons: one because that's obviously the way that Lucas wanted it, and two because most of the people I know here (I live in Korea now) have only seen the versions released since 1999. The girl I saw episode VI with a few months back had only seen the new versions and thought it was a bit strange to see some old man when I showed her afterwards who the original actor was. --Mithridates 01:37, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Inspirations Behind the Force
It seems awfully strange that in this section of the article, the only mention is of Asimov. No mention of how the Jedi philosophy borrows many of its themes from a wide variety of real religious and philosophical traditions? There have been whole books written by philosophers who are fans of the films, pointing out the Buddhist, Taoist, and Stoic themes in the Jedi philosophy. Lucas constantly uses Sanskrit words as names for things and has mentioned these influences himself. To have no mention of them seems incomplete. See, "The Philosophy of Star Wars" and "The Dharma of Star Wars" for more information. --DT Strain, October 31, 2005

Jedi council 1.jpg, Jedi robes.jpg
Some of the images in this article (Image:Jedi council 1.jpg, Image:Jedi robes.jpg) do not currently have any source or copyright information - and so it can now be deleted. I've looked around on google images for the originals but can't source them. Does anyone here know where they're from, or have a free replacement they could upload? Cheers. --Agnte 19:10, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
 * That image isn't a still. It's concept art. So, I'd wager good money it came from the Art of Phantom Menace. Hope that helps.RandallFlagg 06:17, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I withdraw that part about not being a still.RandallFlagg 02:01, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Jedi Ranks
Is there a source for the elaborate ranking system that an anonymous editor introduced, the one with nine ranks that goes from "Taskih Padawan" to "Kerton Rimidon"? A Google search turns up mostly mirrors of Wikipedia along with the infamous Supershadow site, and some fanfic and message board posts. Since it seems pretty unlike anything we've seen before (like Yoda not any of these titles to Obi-Wan, even though we see the formal ceremony of his Knighting), I'm very inclined to call it "Original Research"/fanfic and remove it, but I thought I'd ask if anybody has any hard verification and references for this first. --Wingsandsword 03:23, 16 November 2005 (UTC)


 * You saw it on SS and still feel the need to ask whether it is legit? You have much to learn, grasshopper. --Maru  (talk) Contribs 03:48, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Jedi Council
I seem to remember the Jedi Council being composed of permanent members and rotating elected members. Can anyone else verify this?RandallFlagg 06:08, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Jedi Army of Light
I know the Army of Light fought at Russuan, but wasn't there an Army of Light involved in the Clone Wars, fighting alonside the Clone Army? Also in Star Wars Battlefront 2 there are soldiers defending the Jedi Temple. Would these also be part of that army?

Origins of the Jedi
The article here states that no one knows the origin of the Jedi, but wasn't there an EU book about the very first Jedi (something Sinis)? a time when Jedi had to carry power packs for their lightsaber?

I believe in Wookiepedia that it states that the Jedi first originated from the planet Tython. As for the lightsabers with power packs, I remember that Jedi Master Odan-Urr carried one with him. Those were the most primitive forms of lightsaber technology; when in combat, the wielder of the weapon was pretty limited on how far the lightsaber could be swung (the chord for the hilt to the power pack limits the length). But as far as lightsaber crystals are concerned, nothing has changed. Even the hilts of the lightsabers were very archaic and ancient.

Clean Up
The article is inconsistent with capitalization of Jedi/jedi, especially around the Jedi ranks section. Which is it? --Anon.


 * I did a search and replace in Emacs. Is it better now? --Maru (talk) Contribs 06:58, 16 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Looks fine to me. Also, I remember that there was something about another rank called "First Jedi" or something to that effect. Was it fanon? --Anon


 * I've never heard of such a thing, but the Star Wars universe is vast. If I had to say, I would probably guess it is fanon (as I've not heard of it nor has Wookiepedia). --Maru (talk) Contribs 01:55, 18 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, it was listed here a month or so back, so I assume it had to have been fanon. --Anon

Revert recent edits
Several recent edits have destroyed the Wiki formatting of this page. I believe some content was changed, too, but the formatting was so badly changed, and the number of edits made the content changes so hard to follow, that I have simply reverted the page. (I had been going to simply place a cleanup note, but I didn't want to leave the formatting in such a decomposed state.) If the edits are important, please feel free to add them back in—with proper formatting. – Mipadi 05:25, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Concerning edits of "fictional"
Looking at the recent history of this page, I've noticed that there's some amount of dispute between listing the fictionality of the order discussed in the article, and I was wondering if there's a precedent for listing it as fictional, or not. I'd like to see this resolved decisively. Personally I lean toward not listing it as fictional since the content itself comes from a fiction book, but, precedent is precedent. Kuzaar 14:15, 3 January 2006 (UTC)


 * In my experience, it's generaelly been encouraged to make sure that articles from fictional works are clearly marked as fictional somewhere near the beginning. – Mipadi 16:41, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Did Jedi believe in deities?
i like to know 'cause i what to knew if the jedi were more like Atheists or agnostics or they aren't neither of that.Please do explain it to me in time.Thanks.


 * It's not sure, but they always resembled pantheists to me. --maru (talk) Contribs 01:36, 4 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Probably more like Panentheism.


 * Panentheism: Panentheism (Greek words: pan=all, en=in and Theos=God; "God-in-all") is the view that God is immanent within all Creation or that God is the animating force behind the universe. Unlike pantheism, panentheism does not mean that the universe is all God or that God contains the universe inside Godself. In panentheism, God maintains a transcendent character, and is viewed as both the creator and the original source of universal morality. The term is closely associated with the Logos of Hellenistic philosophy in the works of Herakleitos, which pervades the cosmos and whereby all things were made. (From Wikepedia) - Pretty close to the concept of the Force, no?


 * Hinduism, Chinese religions and Eastern Christianity all have panentheistic elements.

Are Jedis(especially in the old order) invanded to weddings?
I'd just what to know.Also if Viodeo/Computer games,TV,and the internet had ever exist in thst same universe would the jedi be aloud to play,watch and do these things?Thanks.Answer in time if you may.Also would the Jedi pick metally/Phyically Retarded or autisic infants to join the Jedi order?(if these disorders had ever exist in that universe.)
 * Ha ha ha ha ha... I'm sorry&mdash;I know this isn't relevant&mdash;but stuff like this is why I friggin' love Wikipedia. Kafziel 04:27, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Luke's beliefs
Is this true?

"Just prior to becoming the Jedi Grand Master, Luke Skywalker has recanted of his beliefs and returned to a more traditional view." (See Gray Jedi). If it is, I think this needs a bit more elaboration.

-- Solberg 10:06, 12 January 2006 (UTC)Solberg

Roots
Just a general question: As far as the games and Expanded Universe writings go, how much has been apporved/sanctioned by G. Lucas himself? ewok37 07:48, 15 January 2006 (UTC)


 * By him personally and not just his companies? Unknowable. --maru (talk) Contribs 19:21, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Morgan Katarn
I don't feel confident to edit the page myself, but Morgan Katarn seems missing from the listing of Jedi.

I think Morgan was a Force Sensitive, but was not trained as a Jedi or a Sith.
 * Then why exactly is he training Jedi or sitting on the Council?--KrossTalk 19:59, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Weapons Master
I am going to remove the Weapons Master entry in classes, as it is 1. not a major, main class and 2. is only seen in one game (thus uncanon). It would belong more in KOTOR2 then in the main Jedi page. --Bky1701 00:40, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Two games. It's also included in the Power of the Jedi sourcebook for the D20 RPG. So it's as meaningful here as a destinction in Guardians/Consulars and moreso than a Jedi Sentinal. --DeMyztikX 03:11, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Removed link
Removed a spam link first line of website was "become a real jedi knight."-- Dakota  ~   °  00:57, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * This website appears to be a genuine real-world religion inspired by Star Wars' fictitious Jedi Order. Surely that's relevant to the "Jedi" article, isn't it? Irrevenant 00:26, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, that is as relevant as it gets. Totally wrong to remove it. Das Baz 17:42, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

An Egyptian Connection?
In ancient Egyptian, Djed means "stability," and the Jedi are supposed to bring order and stability to the Galaxy. This is very interesting, whether or not George Lucas knows about it or not.Das Baz 17:42, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Jedi Classification?
Is there a reason why there's a pointless section that brings in a game mechanic from the SW D20 system? It even says in the introduction to the section that the differences don't really exist in the canon... so why on earth is there a big boring section dedicated to bringing it up?!? It doesn't even jive with the canon- for example, it lists Yoda as a Consular, yet the last two prequels show him to be considered one of best warriors in the Order, if not the best; Kenobi is listed as a Guardian, yet his nickname during the Clone Wars was "the Negotiator"....

And yes, I saw it brought up about a year ago here in the talk, but no reason for keeping it was actually given- someone (I could check to see who it was but it's late here and I'm tired) said something to the effect of "well, we'll just point out that it's not canon and keep it anyway". That's not actually a reason. ''Edit: Ok, I went back and looked, and a reason was given- that it has to do with depicting Jedi despite not being canon. But that's just the point- it's not at all canon; by that reasoning, we should include the ravings of Supershadow, or me, or any other non-canon source that happens to depict Jedi.''

If it's just me, well, fine- but I don't think it is just me, because others have brought it up.

But I was reading the article just now and that section just jarred me out of an interesting read. It seems to me to be like going into an article about the Crusades and in the middle just adding info about units found in Medieval: Total War, for example. It's not accurate, and it doesn't help the article, and it's just confusing.

Cheers --DarthBinky 06:56, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I somewhat agree, however you're missing something in your final arguement. LucasFilms has to approve these things, the people who made Medieval: Total War did not have to get the vatican to aprove the game. --DeMyztikX 03:11, 29 June 2006 (UTC)


 * True, but I doubt Lucasfilm bothers to control game mechanics, which is what this is. But that's not the point; what I was getting at was that it's unnecessary info that detracts from the article.--DarthBinky 07:33, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I find your lack of faith disturbing. Actually I'm not aware how much they actually look at, however I do know that they have to approve everything. It's also a fairly understandable distinction. I think a note would be more acceptable, not a section. That is unless that section included the actual fictional statements made about jedi and their classifications. As such I mean the Agricorps (those that learn to work agriculture using the force after not being accepted by a master) or other actual groups of jedi. Several were mentioned in the Dark Horse comics about Exar Kun and such. These are all actually in Star Wars and not (excuse the term) metagame classes. --DeMyztikX 21:10, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

This section is just so distracting, game-specific, and contestable it just doesn't belong here. Jedi Sentinels don't even exist in the SW d20 RPG. It's a game artifact and belongs in an article about those games, not a general article about Jedi. Plenty of people read the article who have probably never played a Star Wars game. Also, some of the information is probably inaccurate. Luke Skywalker, for instance, is not a Jedi Consular; he's a fighter. Further, in the SW RPG, it's forbidden for Rebellion-era characters to gain Consular levels, and none of his writeups do. Yoda may have been conceived as a Consular by some, but we know, thanks to AotC and RotS, that he is a superb swordsman. We now know that Palpatine is a master of all the Sith arts, a warrior as well as a sorcerer. Recent writeups on wizards.com documents this change in presentation. I'm once again deleting the Jedi types section. --68.95.145.150 17:16, 14 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree User:68.95.145.150, who should just log on, coincidently. It takes like five seconds.  ;)


 * Anyway, I say put it in a page about the SW D20 RPG. It's a game mechanic about how Jedis were classified, within the confines of a game.  End of story.  It's about the game and that's the extent of it's scope.  I don't see why we can't have a link to the SW D20 game article at the end of the Jedi article, if it is that relevant or notable, but inclusion of among the main body of this article's content......  nope.


 * It's inclusion would be like interrupting an article about historical legends and folklore about Werewolves with a section about how werewolves are depicted as Player Characters in Werewolf: the Apocalypse. I think it's arguable that, in that case, you would maybe list a link to the game article at the end of the werewolf article, if you list anything at all......  and that would be the best compromise here, I think.


 * --Antelope In Search Of Truth 20:52, 14 July 2006 (UTC)


 * There.... I moved the content over the SW D20 page.  That wasn't so hard.  ;)  --Antelope In Search Of Truth 21:10, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Citation
A whole lot of information is presented in this article without saying what works it comes from. We really need to say which bits come from the movies, which from books, which from roleplaying games etc. etc. DJ Clayworth 15:41, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic (comics)
The Knights of the Old Republic Comic Series clearly states the usage of the Guardian/Sentinel/Consular classification system. Are they accepted as cannon? If so, this negates the need for the Classification in Games section.

Warnings
I think this page should be marked for spoilers somewhere near the beginning. I know a lot of this is common knowledge, but not everyone has seen the whole Star Wars series. Such a person would have most of the series spoiled from reading the fate of Anakin in the first paragraph. Few people would probably be here if they weren't looking for information on the series, but it's still doesn't seem right to have such detailed storyline information without any warning. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Robman803 (talk • contribs)


 * I agree, that is a fairly big spoiler. It also isn't vitally important to the article (being about the fictional organization, it isn't important to note the primary character in the saga). Removed. EVula 15:11, 12 August 2006 (UTC)