Talk:Jeff Berlin

Notability tag
Notability is not seriously in question. 394k hits on Google on "Jeff Berlin", and 2.5k hits on Google Books, many of which attest to Berlin's status as a virtuoso, and one of the highest rated bass players in the world. The only reason such a tag is merited on the article is because these edits wiped out the entire discography, itself compiled by several editors. I would suggest that it be restored and an 'unreferenced' tag be added to the section. Wwwhatsup (talk) 07:33, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Discography
The Discography below was removed by User:MarioNovi and its veracity is now challenged by User:Sitush, thus it is necessary to find a reference for each entry. I've done the solo stuff, some of the sideman section yet to be done. Any assistance appreciated. Please add label +ref. Wwwhatsup (talk) 00:27, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

;Solo recordings:


 * 1985 Jeff Berlin/Vox Humana - Champion (Passport Jazz)
 * 1986 Jeff Berlin - Pump It! (Passport Jazz)
 * 1997 Jeff Berlin - Taking Notes (Denon)
 * 1998 Jeff Berlin - Crossroads (Denon)
 * 2000 Jeff Berlin - Star Licks Master Sessions: Jeff Berlin (Star Licks Productions) (VHS)
 * 2000 Jeff Berlin - In Harmony's Way (M.A.J. Records and multiple re-releases)
 * 2004 Jeff Berlin - Lumpy Jazz (M.A.J. Records)
 * 2006 Jeff Berlin - Aneurythms/Ace Of Bass (M.A.J. Records, re-released Holographic Records 2008)
 * 2006 Jeff Berlin - Mel Bay Jeff Berlin-Bass Logic from the Players School of Music (Mel Bay Publications) (DVD)
 * 2010 Jeff Berlin - High Standards (King Japan / M.A.J. Records)
 * 2013 Jeff Berlin - Low Standards (Random Act Records)


 * Sideman appearances:


 * 1976 Patrick Moraz - The Story of I (Charisma (UK),Atlantic (US/Canada),Voiceprint (reissue))
 * 1976 Esther Phillips - Capricorn Princess
 * 1976 Patti Austin - End of a Rainbow (CTI Records)
 * 1976 David Matthews with Whirlwind - Shoogie Wanna Boogie ( CTI Records, Kudu)
 * 1977 Ray Barretto - Eye of the Beholder (Atlantic Records)
 * 1977 David Liebman - Light'n Up, Please! (A&M Records)
 * 1977 Ernie Krivda - Satanic (Inner City)
 * 1977 Bill Bruford - Feels Good to Me
 * 1978 Don Pullen - Montreux Concert (Atlantic)
 * 1979 David Sancious - Just As I Thought
 * 1979 Bruford - One Of A Kind (Winterfold Records)
 * 1979 Bruford - The Bruford Tapes (Winterfold Records)
 * 1980 Bruford - Gradually Going Tornado ((Winterfold Records))
 * 1980 Poussez! - Leave That Boy Alone!
 * 1980 Passport - Lifelike
 * 1981 Joe Diorio - 20th Century Impressions
 * 1981 Bruford - The Bruford Tapes
 * 1983 Allan Holdsworth - Road Games
 * 1983 Janis Ian - Uncle Wonderful
 * 1985 Schumate-Reno Jazz Quintet - Hurricane
 * 1986 Bruford - Master Strokes 1978-1985
 * 1986 T Lavitz - Storytime
 * 1987 Henderson-Berlin-Smith-Lavitz - Players
 * 1987 Kazumi Watanabe - The Spice of Life
 * 1988 Kazumi Watanabe - The Spice of Life Too
 * 1989 KD Lang - Even Cowgirls Get the Blues
 * 1993 Anderson-Bruford-Wakeman-Howe - An Evening of Yes Music Plus
 * 1994 Nathan Cavaleri Band -  Nathan
 * 1995 Richie Kotzen - The Inner Galactic Fusion Experience
 * 2002 Twinemen - Twinemen
 * 2002 Various Artists - Grand Theft Auto: Vice City (Soundtrack)
 * 2004 Catie Curtis - Dreaming in Romance Languages
 * 2004 Weepies - Happiness
 * 2004 Novocento - Featuring...
 * 2005 Chambers-Berlin-Fiuczynski-Lavitz - Boston T Party
 * 2007 Paddy Saul - One Town Tasted
 * 2007 Bill Bruford - Rock Goes To College (DVD)
 * 2008 Meg Hutchinson - Come Up Full
 * 2009 Bill Bruford - Best of Winterfold
 * 2010 Meg Hutchinson - The Living Side
 * 2010 Dann Glenn - Eleven Eleven Orchestra
 * 2012 Scott Henderson & Jeff Berlin & Dennis Chambers - HBC


 * Actually, I didn't specifically challenge the discography: I challenged all of the then unsourced statements. - Sitush (talk) 17:00, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The discography, clearly, was included in the "hole in the dyke". Despite it including several works notable enough in their own right to have wikipedia articles, noting Berlin's participation. Wwwhatsup (talk) 04:59, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * To be honest, I hadn't even realised that there had been a discography. I was more concerned about the plain text. However, yes, it should be referenced. I'm not a follower of music but I'm surprised that there isn't a reliable online source that lists them all and would thus enable us to have a simple opening statement at the head of the list that contains a citation to that source. - Sitush (talk) 08:34, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I had a look around, but I didn't find a definitive guideline. It is normal practice to include template links Template:Allmusic and Template:Discogs artist in ELs. Wwwhatsup (talk) 20:07, 1 August 2013 (UTC)


 * It is confusing the way it is now because compilation albums are not listed separately. It makes it appear like he has released more than he truly has. Do others agree? Thank you, MarioNovi (talk) 23:11, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 * What compilation albums? Listed separately where? Wwwhatsup (talk) 00:27, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Crossroads is a compilation according to link you provided. Are these usually listed separate, with Greatest Hits and Best of? MarioNovi (talk) 00:34, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Not particularly, to my knowledge. This was a fresh issue on a new, and major,label. IMO it counts as a release whether the track had been available before or not, it's an album. Breaking out a new section is a stylistic decision I leave to others. I am still working to resurrect the article from it's earlier trashing. BTW if we went into all the re-releases of these albums the list would be huge, many of them have come out several times. Is your point that you are still suggesting Berlin's notability is in question? Wwwhatsup (talk) 02:12, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I do not know what you think I am trying to say, I only wanted to add a heading for compilation albums. MarioNovi (talk) 07:13, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I was referring to your concern "It makes it appear like he has released more than he truly has." If you want to break out the compilations go ahead. If Sitush were to rescind his/her challenge, we could possibly dispense with the refs, but in the meantime the rest have to be done. Perhaps you could find time to run through the remaining, including label info? Wwwhatsup (talk) 07:48, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I see you are more interested in undoing my edits elsewhere than bringing this article back up to where it was before you got to it. Wwwhatsup (talk) 05:46, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * What is relevance of this here? I think discography on this article is a waste of time, and also was discourage at talk for New York Noise. Thank you, MarioNovi (talk) 06:00, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

If the pair of you cannot stop the sniping and stalking then I am going to request that either you are both topic banned from music articles or an interaction ban is put in place. I presume that we have a project or two for music-related articles: is there any project guidance for discographies? Obviously, project guidance never over-rides that which is required by the wider community but I would be interested to read it nonetheless. - Sitush (talk) 06:02, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * If you dropped your challenge, it might save us all some toil. Although it has been quite interesting discovering the vagaries of Berlin's recording career. There is a project dedicated to the topic WikiProject Discographies. Sourcing is only really mentioned as regards to chart positions. There is a brief style guideline here. Then there is a further defunct discussion on style which says For the establishment of the general releases in a discography – that a certain release exists, was released in the first place, and is a part of the artist's body of work – general sources, as opposed to in-line citations, are sufficient. For additional non-contentious facts such as release date, record label, and catalog number, general sources are also acceptable. It further suggests Discogs as a reliable source. You will see at the top of the project talk page an old discussion on the reliability of AllMusic. Wwwhatsup (talk) 10:13, 20 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I am not dropping anything. If you want to do you own thing then go write your stuff someplace else. This cavalier attitude to our policies is precisely why you are in the mess that you are in now. I'll take a look at the various links - thanks for providing them - but, as I say, WP:V is paramount. - Sitush (talk) 10:55, 20 August 2013 (UTC)


 * This is always the problem with sidemen--such discographies are like resumes. I don't think we have standards besides the convention of listing it all. FWIW, Sitush, Berlin is a fantastic bass player--you should listen to what he did with Bruford. Drmies (talk) 14:15, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * BTW, he's also (verifiably) on Holdsworth's Road Games. But one of the problems with an extensive discography is that the article has very little text (thus it easily becomes undue), and what there is is not written very well. Drmies (talk) 14:17, 20 August 2013 (UTC)