Talk:Jeff Buckley/Archive 1

Note: At the time of archiving I added comments to the discussions to clarify whether they were resolved or not (if unclear). Thanks Sillyfolkboy (talk) 19:22, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Judy Garland
Judy Garland died in 1969, yet somehow she listed as one of Buckley's teachers in the 90's? There is a source, likely an unreliable one, listed with this claim.ShirleyPartridge (talk) 04:07, 29 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Clarified this as "The music of singers...(such as) Judy Garland..." etc. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 19:23, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Greastest Singer thing...
Just wondering: I picked up an issue of Q Magazine recently (British pop music mag, in case they don't have it in the states) and Jeff was in there as the 10th greatest singer of all time, as they were doing one of those top 100 things in that issue. My question is: Is that worth throwing into the article, and if so, where? Stratpod 00:03, 15 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Cited in lead from "Q 100 greatest songs" list Sillyfolkboy (talk) 19:25, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Vocal range...again...
Jeff Buckley's vocal range always seems to change or disappear on this article. I think the A2-E#6 statement (which is three and a half octaves) is better than the four octave one, but at least the four octave statement has a source, so I don't object to it.

I didn't like this sentence: ''It's been heavily rumoured amonst Buckley fans that he could actually sing a note so high that he didn't actually hear it until it was on it's way down. This hasn't been confirmed though.'' so I removed it. If it's a rumor, it doesn't belong on Wikipedia. Many of my friends and I are avid Jeff Buckley fans and none of us have never heard this rumor. It seems fabricated to me. Plus, I strongly doubt that he could sing that high; not even singers famous for their huge ranges (Mariah Carey, Minnie Riperton, etc.) can sing nearly that high because humans can hear all the way into the 10th octave, which would mean Jeff Buckley would have a 8 or 9 octave range (pleeeease). His E#6 already sounds rough. Surelyican 01:24, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

His high note isn't even achieved through normal singing. He used an inhaling technique, which is why it sounds as it does. He does NOT have a 4 octave range unless you round up half an octave, in which case Mercury, Cornell, Plant, and Gillan ALSO all have 4 octave ranges.

I also object to rounding the range up to 4 octaves - he's as close to three octaves as he is to four. I'm changing it to 3 and a half. Here's why: The article cites a website (http://www.jeffbuckley.com/rfuller/buckley/faq/07vocals.html) which in turn cites Guitar Player's 4 octave claim, but there's no actual quote from the article. This lonely source worries me, and, frankly, we all know how adept guitarists are at determining keys, let alone entire vocal ranges...I kid, I kid... Really, the website citing Guitar Player says in the same sentence that a tenor's range "in the bass clef spans middle C to high F" (yes, a tenor's range lies exclusively on ledger lines - very inconvenient, I'll tell you.) This is wrong; it's an octave below that, and any good adult tenor can sing above F4. The vocal student whose e-mail is quoted has obviously done her homework about Buckley's voice. She comes up with evidence of a three and a half octave range. Despite being obviously very excited about Buckley's voice, she doesn't claim a three and a half octave range for him, even though she could and it has a nice ring to it, because these high and low notes, this A2 and Eb6, lie about half an octave above and below the extremes he would normally sing in. His normal range is more like two and a half octaves, with the F#5 in "So Real" being the top and a breathy C3, the last note in the chorus of his "Hallelujah," the bottom. This is all consistent with what the e-mail says and that's why it's still somewhat appropriate as a citation. Buckley's voice has incredible color and flexibility, and the way he blended registers is, as Mirko says, something most singers are very envious of. He did not, however, utilize some huge range, because huge range mean high AND low - his voice was very high, but it wasn't low, and it certainly wasn't both. If anyone can cite something about the technical mastery he displayed in his singing, please include it, but we're not doing his memory any justice with completely unverifiable claims of a 4 octave range.

You're doing original research. Please see Wikipedias guidelines on No Original Research http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research and citing sources http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources. The citation is from a reliable second party publication and until a citation from another source shows up it should stand. Dissolve 20:46, 24 November 2006 (UTC) I'm not doing any original research. My entire post pertained only to statements made on the website cited by the article. And upon further examination, the citation should be removed entirely. From Wikipedia's Citing Sources guide: Unless you look at the book (or, in this case, magazine) yourself to check that the information is there, your reference is really the web page, which is what you must cite. The credibility of your article rests on the credibility of the web page, as well as the book, and your article must make that clear. The article does not make this clear at all. Regardless, the question becomes: is the page credible or not? The answer is no, because it contradicts itself. First it says Jeff Buckley's range is four octaves, citing Guitar Player, but then it quotes the other source, whom is properly cited at the bottom of the page in exactly the same way as the magazine, who says the voice spans three and a half octaves at its peak. The space between A2 and Eb6 is three and a half octaves. That isn't original research; that's a fact taught everywhere from elementary schools to conservatories the world over. If authors are going to use deceptively simple sounding yet technical terms like "octave," they should expect scrutiny from musicians. Mistakenly thinking I would avoid controversy by picking the lesser of two evils, I chose to accept the second statement, despite being contradicted on the same page, because it was well-researched. Again, it's this webpage that Wikipedia is actually citing, not the magazine article. We can pick which claim on the cited website we like best - users here seem to prefer the four octave citation, maybe because it's already been added up for us - or we can completely remove from the article both the citation and the octave count. I've elected to do the latter only after examining the guidelines you provided. Skotoseme 22:34, 24 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I also prefer the three and a half octave statement over the four octave one. Three and a half is already huge and adding a whole half octave may not seem like much, but for the voice it's actually quite a bit. I don't doubt his A2 because he seems to be a coloratura/leggero tenor (I'm one too and I can hit the A2) and they characteristically access baritone notes and extend past C5 in full voice. Three and a half octaves is credible but four is a bit of a stretch; if you Google Buckley, sites will appear that cite him as having a 7 or even 8 octave range (please), which is ridiculous because he'd have to sing higher than the likes of Mariah Carey and Yma Sumac and lower than Barry White.


 * I see someone has finally reintroduced the four octave claim, only this time with another citation. The first citation, which has been discussed above, still contradictively claims that Buckley has a range of either three and a half or four octaves, depending on which one of its citations is correct. The second "citation" is from an article written by a film critic over at Palo Alto Weekly. She attended a film festival called Cinequest where a Buckley biopic was shown and refers to Buckley as "the 30-year-old musician with the four-octave voice." It's too bad I didn't make it to the showing; I could write a second movie review and use the other half of the FAQ as a source, and then we'd have three citations!
 * I also noticed that this article has just been rated B class. Coincidence? I don't know. Skotoseme 03:20, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I removed the four octave thing- again. Formerly the article stated that Buckley was "well-known" for a vocal range that only a film critic and an online FAQ have cited. It's a bit of an epidemic: every Wikipedian's favorite singer just HAS be noted for his or her 4+ octave vocal range and perfect pitch. And if you can't *prove* they didn't have it, it should stay. There's no hard data to support anything beyond a 3-and-a-half octave range for Buckley (which is tremendous and demonstrable, but apparently doesn't sound cool enough to be included.) The four octave claim is, according to its primary citation, not confirmed by any recordings. If someone restores the four octave claim PLEASE submit a justification for doing so, something other than "it's the best source we have" (shall we start including the 7 or 8 octave citations?) Just because we have a couple of shoddy citations about Buckley's vocal range doesn't mean we need to include them. Skotoseme 09:00, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
 * That Buckley is "well known for his range" is an opinion, and unless cited, shouldn't even be included. I have seen no books or magazine and newspaper articles that cite Buckley's range that are non-trivial. I have examined 50 or more articles at this point. The mention in the FAQ, although I agree is accurate, doesn't qualify as a Reliable Source in my opinion, being a self-published anonymous email. I agree that it should be left out until a Reliable, Non-Trivial source turns up (if ever). However, a self-published source is useable on Wikipedia if the fact is important to establishing notability. Again, the fact that Buckley is  "well known for his range" would first need to be cited from a source that represents a balanced view of published critical concensus. If this was done, I could see the 3 1/2 octave reference being included to help establish notability. Dissolve 18:01, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh, God. Now I am a HUGE Jeff Buckley Fan, and would go insofar as to unabashedly call myself one of his biggest fans, but the line placed in opening paragraph-rather recently, I'm assuming-are serious POV, "...known for his ethereal voice...". On his fan sites we can say whatever we like, but this is supposed to be a neutral, non-biased article on the Musician known as Jeff Buckley, and has to be approached without any inbuilt bias, with lines like that. I'm saying this in the general sense, and am not rallying against this one word used, which we can hopefully remove and replace. I'm wondering, considering the discussion I've just read above, whether the whole "Known for his..." sentence should be removed until we can actually improve the opening part of the article.

And anyway, to get it to a GA status, we need to vastly improve it, essentially outlining the article in a well written manner in that opening part. Just Some Thoughts. G.AC 22:50, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I added the "ethereal" thing and agree that there is a POV issue. My reasoning: I figured replacing the four octave claim with some vague, positive statement about his voice would subdue those eager to reinsert it. (Give me credit; so far it's worked!) I certainly wouldn't object to removing the clause altogether, though I do think it might be worthy of noting that he was known more for his singing than for his guitar playing, etc. Or maybe not. Skotoseme 21:19, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

The "natural vibrato" thing just added kind of irks me, regardess of any POV issues. Buckley's vibrato is beautiful, but I wouldn't necessarily call it "natural." An Appalachian folk singer's vibrato sounds natural; ever-present, unnerring and, most importantly, not particularly expressive; it's just part of the general vocal technique. That's essentially a "natural" vibrato, I think. Buckley on the other hand had fantastic control over his vibrato- its frequency, intensity, etc...the high C he hits hard and then pulls back on in "Mojo Pin" comes to mind. So..."expressive" vibrato, maybe? We're already pushing it with the "ethereal voice" thing...Skotoseme 08:52, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Seems ridiculous to not mention the amazing qualities of his voice since this is the primary reason he is notable. I mean this is the whole thing. This is what draws people to him, but we can't mention it because it violates POV? I mean let's not be ridiculous. The clarity and range of his voice is obvious, and it's what he's known for. If we can't say so, I recommend delete since obviously Wikipedia is not capable of covering Jeff Buckley in a meaningful way. Does anyone even disagree that he had at least a 3.5 octave range? I mean I need to go find an authority to state the obvious and somehow get it published before it can be cited? Come on?! "We hear in the title track the sheer scope of Buckley's range, married to one of the album's better melodies....." http://www.slantmagazine.com/music/features/eternallife.asp "With his ridiculous vocal range of three and a half octaves, and his lush music production Buckley's record "Grace" was released to critical acclaim and garners high respect from artists such as Thom Yorke and Matt Bellamy (of Radiohead and Muse respectively.)" http://www.sputnikmusic.com/album.php?albumid=504 "Across it all is The Voice, recalling both Roy Orbison’s multi-octave range and the power of Kurt Cobain or Thom Yorke." http://www.spikemagazine.com/0599jeffbuckley.php "Possessed of a striking, multioctave voice and a passion for high drama in his performances...." http://www.rollingstone.com/artists/jeffbuckley "Buckley and his father, Tim Buckley, were both known for soaring multi-octave voices, restless creative spirits, and young deaths...." - http://www.popmatters.com/pm/music/reviews/various_artists_dream_brother/ "The son of another mysterious, big-voiced singer - Tim Buckley, who also died at an early age...." http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10464680 "'He looked startlingly like his father and had the same unusually wide vocal range." http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/29/movies/29brow.html Okay, Now can we at least mention his range and vocal abilities as notable? An article on Jeff Buckley that doesn't mention the qualities of his voice, except to call them ethereal? Sheesh! What does that even tell someone? - Gripdamage 20:58, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

And what exactly does something like "multi-octave" tell someone? Two or more octaves? Most singers have at least that- even singers who are relatively mediocre, like Leonard Cohen, by his own admission. The journalists you cite, save for the first one, realize their musical knowledge is limited enough that they shouldn't attempt to measure anyone's vocal range, and this is why most of them resort to the utterly useless description "multi-octave." You are welcome to replace "ethereal" with any number of one-size-fits-all adjectives from your arsenal of citations ("striking!", "soaring!", "big-voiced!") and see how long it takes for someone to remove them. Or delete the article altogether, should you deem it necessary. Skotoseme (talk) 22:38, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Clearly they didn't say "multi octave" to indicate that they consider his range average or inline with his peers, and everyone who reads it understands they are saying his range is greater than most others. It seems clear that people who listen to Jeff Buckley feel that his range is notable. My frustration comes that even though this is obvious, listed in every review of Grace and just about every article about Jeff Buckley we are disallowing any mention of range because it is difficult to quantify to an exact number in a meaningful way. Vocal range is real. It exists. It may not be easy to pin down or find agreed upon standards but we all know what it is. Does anyone even disagree that Buckley's range is a large part of his appeal? His appeal derives largely from his vocal talent and even though you feel that is vague, it distinguishes him from singers like Leonard Cohen, to use your example, who is more noted for his gifts as lyricist and songwriter. Saying his vocal range is "unusually wide" is good enough for New York Times but doesn't meet Wikipedia's standards? Gripdamage (talk) 14:14, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

That's correct, because the New York Times citation was a film review. :) I totally agree that his appeal lies in his vocal talent, I just disagree that he sings in a particularly wide range. And I know vocal range is a real thing; I'm a singer myself, certainly not anywhere in the league of Jeff Buckley. But I do know his range intimately from my own ill-fated attempts at singing his music, so I can point you to some examples (sticking to material from Grace so everyone can play along...) Chart Buckley's vocal range in "So Real," "Dream Brother," "Corpus Christi Carol," "Lilac Wine" or "Hallelujah." Gorgeous singing, but in each of these songs the vocal range is no more than one octave plus a third or a fourth. So half the songs on Grace don't even reach an octave and a half, a smaller range than the US national anthem. Then we have "Last Goodbye," "Eternal Life," "Mojo Pin," "Lover, You Should've Come Over." Roughly the same high notes, but with his lower singing stretching the range out to two octaves and a major second. The title track uses the biggest range with two octaves plus a major third. Friggin' amazing singing, but not a wide vocal range. Amazing coordinated head voice extension, amazing control, seamless blending, but not a quantitatively large range. That's all I've been arguing this whole time. Compare the average range of a JB song to the range of a song by Mariah Carey, who has a husky alto but also flies around in a whistle register, or Prince, who has a deep baritone (evident in his ridiculous speaking voice) but pushes his falsetto far into regions beyond well beyond Buckley's highest falsetto singing. Many of Prince's and Carey's hit singles exceed three octaves ("When Doves Cry," "Most Beautiful Girl in the World," "Fantasy" and "Emotions," where Carey sings well over four octaves.) These are two singers who should be noted for wide vocal ranges. Buckley had a fantastic, weird, high voice, but simply did not stretch into his chest register low enough to have a huge *range* (again I stress: a big range = very high AND very low!), no matter how many film critics may think so. Skotoseme (talk) 15:59, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

NPOV
There are probably several POV issues in this article, but that jumped out at me is the line that was in the 'careers' section about his former reggae band: "He had yet to reveal his magnificent voice even to bandmates." It sounds like a fan bio, 'magnificent' is not a quantifiable attribute. I'm removing it and adding that he "exclusively" played the guitar for said band. Jmejia 09:56, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

The use of the word 'beatific' in the very first paragraph seems a bit NPOV to me. Jack


 * No longer found in article. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 19:22, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Weebot
I'm sick and tired of you questioning whether shit should be on here. It's USEFUL information and let people know about it. Who cares? You remove my quotes section I worked an hour on because "it's not encyclopedic"...my ass it's not. Look in an encyclopedia, you'll find quotes sometimes. Ever heard of Encyclopedias of Quotes? I sure as hell have...go to your local library and look it up.


 * There is a sister Wikimedia project, Wikiquote. Your work is still in the history and the quotes would more appropriate there, so move them over if you so desire.  Here's the template, and you can move it over onto the Wikipedia article if you still want your infomation on this article.


 * --Weebot 22:32, 5 November 2005 (UTC).


 * Quotes moved to wikiquote. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 19:22, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Perfect Pitch
Perfect pitch has nothing to do with being able to play a song after having heard it just once. It is the ability to know exactly with key or what particular note is being played just by hearing it. Steelslide


 * Yes, but often perfect pitch with a knowledge of the fretboard will yield a reproduction of the song without music. If you know what notes and key it's in and have knowledge of what the notes of the fret board is, then you will be able to reproduce it. In any case, he apparently had it..it is sort of apparent if you watch some of his live videos. Jhendrix86


 * I just watched a live performance of Buckley's "Mojo Pin" and I know what you're getting at. I don't think this video is evidence of Buckley having perfect pitch, however. He listens to his guitar, he gets his tonal bearings, and he enters dead-on. This is evidence of acute *relative* pitch. Perfect pitch is actually hard to determine; someone with exceptional relative pitch (which I think he displays in the video) can "prove" they have perfect pitch, but really Buckley is relying on tonal context, which his guitar gives him. But perfect pitch is totally independent of tonal context. In the video, Buckey hits an open D or something and finds his way to a G without any trouble. He's accustomed to his instrument and he knows every note he's playing. Many (if not most) skilled musicians have very accurate relative pitch.

The interesting thing about perfect pitch...it's sexy, but really has nothing to do with musical talent. Quite a few composers classical composers admitted to not having it. One wonders if those who said they have perfect pitch really did, as it's quite easy to fake with relative pitch if you're sitting in front of your instrument. Skotoseme 12:02, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

It was just overly sentimental dude; shouldn't be in an encycopedia

perfect pitch means that you can identify the notes, not necesarily remember every one in the right order. Olayak

I am positive Jeff did not have perfect pitch anyway. If more detail is needed, ask.

Photo
This photograph looks like it might be one made by Buckley's friend Merri Cyr, in which case it would be copyrighted. Crculver 15:37, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * The photo recently added is most definitely copyrighted. I will remove it in one week's time if no one can prove they have the right to place it here. Crculver 01:49, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Is that better for a photo on a main page, since we already have it in the database, and can not use any other cause they are all copyrighted... (talk) Death2 16:02, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

This picture is crap. Please change it. I have a far better one in my laboratory. Please ask and I will relinquish it to you.

Unbearable situation
''Buckley's naive vison of the record industry led him to an unbearable situation. After the release of his first and critically acclaimed album, he spent more than two years touring across the world. It seemed to be a tiring but efficient means for him to keep his independence from his record company.''

It's not clear to me what the "unbearable situation" being suggested here actually is. Would someone who knows something about this care to elaborate? The article doesn't make enough sense. Graham 01:26, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * True or not, it's a strange and POV way to describe his career at this point. The whole paragraph is a bit confusing. --Dhartung | Talk 18:35, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I watched the DVD that came with the Grace album which contained a "Making of" Documentary, and Jeff's producer (Andy Wallace, I think) mentioned that because sales of Grace were slow, the record company had put Jeff under some pressure to make a more commercial follow up. From watching the DVD it seems that Jeff was difficult enough to tie down in terms of completing a song without getting bored and going onto another project, so he would have absolutely hated any efforts to direct the course of his music. --El Pollo Diablo | Talk 08:09, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
 * See, that's better wording right there. --Dhartung | Talk 17:36, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I was in communication with Jeff during the period referred to here. I remember that he expressed hating, very much, that his physical beauty seemed to be being emphasized so much in the marketing of his music, rather than letting people focus on his music, itself. It seemed he felt it was an assault on his personal integrity, and one might extrapolate that it also felt like an assault on his control over his creation. I personally would find that hard to bear, and I am nothing like the creative genius Jeff was. "Unbearable situation" seems appropriate. Mjstone323 19:38, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * "Unbearable situation" no longer in article. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 19:22, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Nick Drake
Calling Nick Drake an influence for Eternal Life? Sorry folks but this and other inane comments lead me to suggest that this article be more substancially re-written. If nobody wants to do so within, say, a week, I'll give it a shot ... then you can all tell me at what a crap job I have done! (fair is fair!). Fergananim


 * Influence removed from article. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 19:22, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Wolf River
Someone erroneously wrote that JB died in the Wolf River. I changed it to the MS River. --Mwhouse 17:37, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Somebody else already corrected it back. Technically, from what I can find, they were swimming in the Wolf River just above where it joins the Mississippi. --Dhartung | Talk 18:35, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * True. He drowned in the Wolf River, right where it forks off the Mississippi. It's an area that is deceptively calm looking, and several people have drowned there.nut-meg 07:34, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Another tribute
A group called "Easy Tiger" recorded a track called "Jeff Buckley" on their album "Lonely in my members only", which (as well as the obvious name check) seems very much influenced by his musical style. The album and track are available on the iTunes music store [source] but I know very little else about them, unfortunately, which is why I haven't as yet put anything on the main page.

Also a group called Without Gravity made a trubute song about hin called Wolf River on theyr album Tenderfoot.

Vocal Range
It's 4 octaves Belfast Film Festival: programme - Amazing Grace

http://www.belfastfilmfestival.org/2005/programme/film.php?f=27

"Impossible to classify, Jeff Buckley's four-octave voice and songs of unchecked passion and pain traverse the worlds of rock, soul, blues, gospel, folk, and torch."

I messed up my counting when I said this before:

Middle C is C4, therefore that A he hit was an A2.

A2 B2 C3 D3 E3 F3 G3 A3 - one octave B3 C4 D4 E4 F4 G4 A4 - two octaves B4 C5 D5 E5 F5 G5 A5 - three octaves B5 C6 D6 E6 - 3 1/2 octaves still, an amazing range, considering he could hit up to a high G in full voice....his full voice range was 3 octaves, unheard of almost. jhendrix86

I notice that his vocal range keeps changing - if we're sticking with the quoted second A below middle C to third Eb above middle C in his recordings it is DEFINITELY 3.5 octaves: See below

A--A-middle C-Eb--A---Eb---A---Eb

< 1 oct____ > <.5 oct> -- User:210.246.27.119


 * I think it was modified more than once by editors without the appropriate technical chops. I considered correcting it, but I just couldn't do so with authority. Thanks! --Dhartung | Talk 05:55, 25 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Several anonymous editors have been mucking with the vocal range again. For very good reasons the "Vocal Range" sections were removed, wholesale, from music articles because they are almost all unsourced and changed by editors without technical proficiency. Keep in mind that vocal range claims sometimes come from deliberately inflated publicity materials. The Buckley claims of vocal range that you can google are all over the map, and go as high as eight, which is probably impossible for the human voice -- you're talking lower than Barry White, and higher than dog whistles. Buckley isn't even much of a low singer -- it's the way that he handles his falsetto that is impressive, not his range per se. I am inclined to leave it at three and a half until given a GOOD reason and an EXCELLENT print reference. Note that the biography Dream Brother cites a five-and-a-half range for both Jeff and his father Tim, but doesn't give a corresponding reference. --Dhartung | Talk 18:27, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Didn't change the range, I just put where the information was culled from into the references. The 3.5 number is taken from the fairly thorough letter, not the Guitar Player quote.--Weebot 20:17, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

A2-C2....two tones..........C2-C6....4 octaves......plus, 2 tones, and from C6-Eb6....he had almost 5 octaves actually.....you are forgetting probably that new octaves start on C, not A.

High G, in So Real blows my mind, and to a lesser extent so does the high F in Grace...both in full voice...

Octaves do not start on C, an octave is the span of any 12 consecutive semitones. And the C above A2 is in fact C3. So you've added an octave anyways.Jmejia

Since his recorded range seems to be inarguably 3 1/2 octaves (A2 -> E6), how is it at all reasonable for this article to claim 5 1/2 when the only source is an uncited sentance in a biography? Nothing in his recordings would lead any trained singer to imagine that he can go much if any lower than A2, or any higher than E6. I personally give him a theoritcal half octave wider than our documentary record provides, but that withstanding, 3 1/2 octaves is credible, 5 1/2 is absurdly unfounded. I've changed the article to read "at least three and a half octaves".Jmejia

I believe that Jeff's voice is around 4 octaves myself, because on the song "Gunshot Glitter" he raises his pitch to an Eb above the soprano key of C, this is pratically coloratura territory, which is a very high agile soprano, if you have ever listened to the song, you know which part I am speaking of.

That is quite interesting..just listened to the track, and it does sound like a 'squeak/whistle' tone coloratura type technique. That E/Eb6 still puts jeff at about 3 1/2 octaves if we agree on A2 for his low note. But I think what you're suggesting is that if he could do whistle tones, another half octave seems probable. I'm inclined to agree even though the Eb6 in that song isn't completely confident. "Gunshot Glitter" at 3 minutes in, off Sketches if anyone cares to have a listen. Does anyone know of any other examples of Jeff singing in that register? Obviously we still can't change the article because of a potential that we can imagine..but it's interesting nonetheless. Btw..what song(s) does he hit the low A2 in? Jmejia

I think it is inappropriate to include such an exact range on the main page - since it is really only his Recorded range we can verify. He may or may not be able to go above 3 1/2 octaves. I'm changing it back to "at least 3 1/2 octaves" but including the 'recorded range' in parenthesis. It's a good fact as long as that is cleared up. Jmejia 09:40, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * If there is a source on his vocal range than that source should be used without original analysis or research. If you do not believe the source is reliable than you should remove the claims altogether. Uncited material is deletable, especially original research. If it is not in a recorded publication or source of reliable stance then it must be deleted. It does not matter if you have brilliant pitch perception, your opinion is not allowed on wikipedia. And I will also point out that removing information in an article that is not sourced along with making ridiculous demands on discussion before deletion breaches the BE BOLD rule of wiki.--I&#39;ll bring the food 11:44, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Be bold is a Wikipedia slogan, not a rule, thus you can't "violate" it. Even that article warns against pushback and points out that Wikipedia operates by consensus. Personally, I am on the verge of just deleting it because there are so many competing claims out there the only way to handle it is with a whole NPOVized section weighing the sources against each other and that would be overkill for this size of an article. I'm personally happier with the 3½ claim than the 4, but I can live with that one, at least. What's ridiculous is the edits (see the history, they're in there) that put it up to 6 and 8 octaves, which as I noted above may be humanly impossible. --Dhartung | Talk 04:26, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

"...[It is] the way that he handles his falsetto that is impressive, not his range per se.-Dhartung"

You realise that there are many moments he sang in his normal voice, not falsetto, that you may have mistake for Falsetto? I wished to put this somewhere on his page: read the last point-the email-on the link. 
 * I dunno, that seems to confirm my opinion that it isn't his range that's important but his control. Again, I think it's just a number to most people (including me) and experts on the singing voice don't even focus on it that much. Certainly I remain convinced that some of the wilder range claims that were being edited in -- five and a half and more -- are nonsense, uncitable, and unverifiable, not to mention possibly humanly impossible. I'm not going to get dragged into a debate about falsetto-vs.-tessitura-vs. head voice-vs. whatever else, though.--Dhartung | Talk 00:53, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I definetely agree-JB was not five octaves; most common is 3 and a half, as seems to have been decided on the main page anyway. Five Octaves is goddamn rare-people like Minnie Riperton had it-anything higher is Incredibly Rare. Beyond 7 octaves is probably Imaginary. G.AC 21:24, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

This page says Buckley had a four-octave range. But, a songbook I bought has an ad for the book "A Wished-For Song," which says,

"His 1994 debut LP Grace showcased his soaring eight-octave vocal range and fluid guitar playing..."

This is at the end of the Jeff Buckley Collection, a songbook put out by the publisher Hal-Leonard. Is this a typo. I discussed it with one of my friends who said she doesn't think that eight octaves is even possible. But if he did have an eight-octave range, it should say so in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.230.86.251 (talk • contribs)
 * We have settled on "four octaves", if you will examine the above discussions (personally, I believe that three-and-a-half is better supported, but I can deal). I am not certain that eight octaves is possible. It is really almost impossible to get verified information for this sort of thing; most of the time the claim goes back to label publicity. As I've argued above, it isn't really his range that's important, it's his vocal control, especially his amazing falsetto. This is what grabs listeners. --Dhartung | Talk 05:05, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Since the issue is so ambiguous, it really should only say "at least 3 1/2 octaves..." This is an encyclopedia, and nothing ambiguous should even be mentioned. So you should go by what is verified, and it doesn't look like 4 is verified. Honestly, though if the issue is that ambiguous, I'm not even sure if a definite vocal range should even be specified, because this is an encyclopedia.

"His 1994 debut LP Grace showcased his soaring eight-octave vocal range and fluid guitar playing..."-This is essentially unheard of. It's a one in a Million thing to find someone with this kind of range. This implies a person with a range the span of a whole Piano-Barry White at the lowest, Minnie Riperton at the Highest. Whoever wrote that about Buckley wasn't even being generous; they probably didn't understand vocal range all that well. G.AC 19:20, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The article doesn't mention his range at all now. How come? Stu   ’Bout ye!  12:23, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Thom Yorke
Considering On A Friday was around in the late 80s, and Radiohead's first LP came out a year before Grace, can Thom Yorke really be said to be "unabashedly" cueing his voice to that of Buckley's?
 * That may not be the best wording, but it's widely understood of "Fake Plastic Trees" that
 * The band had just been to see Jeff Buckley play a set, and when they got back into the studio, Thom recorded the vocals in two takes and broke down in tears.
 * Oh, here's an even better cite:
 * Fake Plastic Trees, from The Bends, was written after Radiohead took a break from recording and went to see Jeff Buckley. It was September 1994, at The Garage in London, and Thom Yorke was transfixed. Their producer at the time, Leckie remembers the effect the gig had on the Radiohead frontman - 'It made him realise you could sing in a falsetto without sounding drippy.' And that about sums up Jeff Buckley. When Grace was released, the world of indie and rock was filled either with bands who were far too bombastic, throwing everything into their music bar emotion, or too hestitant to really go for it and soar, or experiment, lest they be labelled as pretentious. Then, after Grace, we suddenly had the Radiohead that made The Bends and OK Computer.
 * It's clear that Buckley and Grace were influential. That isn't saying that Yorke wasn't born with his voice, and already interested in experimenting with it. --Dhartung | Talk 22:58, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

List of covers
Is the list of Jeff Buckley covers really needed?--Weebot 23:08, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

I found it very informative and useful. Isn't that what an encyclopedia is all about? Mhtbhm 09:30, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree. And the list is not that long that it deserve an "List of...."-article on it's own. - David Björklund (talk) 11:31, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't like the list.... but then this is diplomatic, and others disagree. I'll keep an eye out and if there's more debate maybe it could be considered for breaking off into another page. It's getting quite big. There's also the covers project (google it) for that.... --Untruth 23:29, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

I think the list should either be moved into another page or removed, although the list of covers itself probably isn't long enough to warrant it's own article, placing the tribute songs list before creates an undesirable cumulative effect. Jack

"Lilac Wine" was actually originally a Nina Simone song. As I recall, at least a couple of other songs on "Grace" were covers too, so you might want to ditch mention of the covers that aren't his originals. --STLEric 00:54, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to remove RHCP from the covers list... the opening riff in "Can't Stop" just SOUNDS like Eternal Life, it's not actually a cover. -- Ally
 * It certainly sounds like a quote to me. On the other hand, nobody else has ever apparently noticed, and the Peppers have not mentioned it so far as I know. --Dhartung | Talk 00:20, 30 May 2006 (UTC)


 * List of Covers removed as non-notable by Indopug in May 2008. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 19:22, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Hallelujah
Isn't this a song originally made by Leonard Cohen? Should it be on the list of covers of songs by Jeff Buckley? EliF 21:44, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Good point, I've created a pointer to the song article instead. --Dhartung | Talk 00:20, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

yes, it is a cover Olayak

More on Final Months?
From many documentaries, including a BBC documentary, during that last year of his life, he did a LOT of stuff, that could be included there. If no one is gonna do so, I'll try. G.AC 19:00, 25 June 2006 (GMT)
 * Expansion is always welcome. What was really significant, though? --Dhartung | Talk 02:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, following the BBC documentary, he not only moved to Memphis, became rather down, but eventually became extremely happy, having regained his Musical vision, creating as many as 30 songs (I have all the Citation needed were it to be put on his page); he also looked into moving into and buying the house he was staying in at Memphis.

With all that, I'd prefer to call that section "Final Days" or something to that effect, rather than "Death". G.AC, August 5th 2006, 14:54 (GMT)

My Point is, the whole thing with the two year Touring, the making of some songs that were never intended to be an Album, then his settling down in Memphis to work on songs at a time when he was down, before eventually being happy from regaining his vision, etc.; There was way more to document upon his life that is more than just going from "Grace", to "Death". G.AC, August 7th 2006, 18:00(GMT)
 * True enough, but keep in mind that this is an encyclopedia entry and not a biography. Look at most musician pages here and you'll find large gaps corresponding to them leading boring personal lives in between albums, just like the rest of us. --Dhartung | Talk 07:17, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Fair Enough. G.AC- August 12 2006 (GMT)

Just thought, however. that spending two years on the road, leading into beginning work on your next album, scrapping it to rework it and make demos, and then dying on the day you were to begin rehearsals, was a little more than 'boring personal lives....just like the rest of us'. It doesn't constitute the implication that after "Grace", it went straight onto "Death". G.AC-August 18 2006.


 * Article now expanded with "Sketches" and "Tours" sections. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 19:22, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Last Goodbye
Am I wrong or is that a guy in the video? I know Jeff was straight, but does anyone else notice the homoerotic theme to this video? Just wondering. Olayak
 * I think it is a guy in the beginning and a woman near the end. But none of them are onscreen for more than two seconds so it's hard to tell. I think he was straight, but he also liked to mess with people. It wouldn't suprise me at all if he did it on purpose.nut-meg 08:07, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Recent edits
Two unregistered editors recently added a lot of material, and I want to thank them for contributing -- but I had to rewrite it due to several factors including English grammar, redundancy, non-notability, heavy POV ("greatest album" etc.) In particular I didn't find the "gear & equipment" section notable or encyclopedic, at least not as a lengthy, unsourced list. Consider that over his career a lot of different equipment was used, and mainly we should record specific items that were used for specific recordings on the page for that album or song. If Buckley had one or two very notable or unusual instruments, that is worth adding, but probably as text, not a list. Finally, we need a citation for the Buckley estate quote. --Dhartung | Talk 21:06, 16 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I had to change the part that described the events leading up towards his death, as it was highly inaccurate. Also, is there a talk page for Sketches For My Sweetheart The Drunk ?-- G.AC 13:15, 19 July 2006


 * Well, to be honest, the restaurant bit doesn't seem relevant and the only fact you changed was that Foti "saw" Buckley drown. I've seen a couple of different reports of those events and I'm not sure whether he was inconsistent in his statements or not. Some of the rest of the wording was just too conversational. As for the last bit you added, I'm not sure that I grasp the distinction. Maybe "demos and previously recorded material"? Finally, Talk:Sketches for My Sweetheart the Drunk exists. If the "discussion" link for a page is red, just start a new one; that's what it's there for. --Dhartung | Talk 18:30, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I know Foti and he told me exactly what happened. And it is accurate. Olayak
 * OK, that's fine, but give us a reliable source that we can cite which Foti approves. This isn't taking issue with Foti or you, it's a matter of verifiability. These are important Wikipedia policies that help us make a better encyclopedia. --Dhartung | Talk 20:31, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Jimmy Page played in Shinehead?
"In L.A., he was in a punk band, and like his hero Jimmy Page, played lead guitar in the reggae band Shinehead and limited his singing to backing vocals."

OK, in what way is Buckley being compared to Page here? That he was in L.A., in a punk band, in a reggae band, in Shinehead, or limited his singing to backing vocals? Where exactly is the Jimmy Page connection, because the way I read this it seems to suggest that Buckley, like Page, played lead guitar in Shinehead. Or maybe I just don't remember that era in Page's career. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Buzzsaw999 (talk • contribs)
 * No need to be sarcastic. It needs rewording, that's all. --Dhartung | Talk 00:20, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I honestly wasn't sure if the sentence needed rewording, or if there was a point I was missing. --Buzz 03:27, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * OK then. I think it got expanded from "played lead guitar in a couple of bands" or some such, when somebody found out the name. Writing by committee does that sometimes! ;-) --Dhartung | Talk 05:01, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I removed the reference for Shinehead. In Browne's Dream Brother book, he states that a tour with Shinehead might have been a possible reason for Buckley first coming to NYC according to some LA friends. Not a very definitive statement. Shinehead is mentioned in the Buckley Estate FAQ however, but is not referenced. One article states, "His first band was a short-lived reggae outfit called Shinehead." which is inaccurate, confusing the reggae group, The AKB Band that Buckley played with, with Shinehead. I chose to just say reggae bands for now unless a more reliable source is added. Dissolve 00:15, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I added the reference to Shinehead back. Upon further reading of the Buckley FAQ it states the facts there were checked by Buckley's mother. Buckley also references a tour with a reggae artist in his self-written bio from the Tim Buckley Tribute program book. Dissolve 09:00, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Jeff Buckley-Nina Simone influence?
Shouldn't there be a reference to the following on this wikipage?:

Jeff Buckley was influenced by and recorded several songs written (or made famous) by singer/songwriter/pianist Nina Simone: Marcel flaubert 14:31, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Lilac Wine: Buckley considered Simone's to be the definitive interpretation of the song, stating, "I've only heard Nina Simone's...And that's the only one that matters. There's one by Eartha Kitt. There's one by Elkie Brooks, which I've never, ever heard. There's another one. They've done it, but Nina does it best. That's the end all of it. That's the be all end all version. She's the king."
 * be your husband (originally Be My Husband)
 * that's all i ask
 * I Loves You, Porgy (from George Gershwin's Porgy & Bess)
 * The Other Woman


 * 100% agreed. Added. Dissolve 00:16, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Jeff's Father
I was just looking into this mini forum and noticed there was nothing about Jeff Buckley's father,Tim Buckley. As you know, Jeff's death is strangely similar to his father's. I know this is not something I should be really talking about, but it's very interesting. I have heard from many people that Tim died the same way as Jeff, although I have also heard the "overdose" version (as told here in Wikipedia). And after all this Jeff's mom is going to be the producer for the upcoming Jeff Buckley film (read that on Blitz magazine, I don't know if it's a rumour or not). --Mojo Pin 21:04, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, regardless of what you've "heard from many people", the "overdose version" is verified by reputable media including this BBC page. The only similarity is the eerie tragedy of dying young. As for the film, we mention two projects that aren't exactly going places right now. --Dhartung | Talk 23:34, 26 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Other than dying young and tragically, and perhaps a lack of good judgement, there is nothing similar about their deaths.nut-meg 07:48, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

covers
bob nanna/the city on film covers "nightmares by the sea" and "satisfied mind" and "everybody here wants you" i do believe, if someone wants to add them. xx little anna 19:29, 4 January 2007 (UTC)


 * List of covers removed. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 19:22, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

To Our Beloved "Scottie"
Okay. http://mojopin.org/images/articles/zoosign2.jpg His middle name was spelt Scottie. Someone has changed it back to Scotty, despite me changing it. It's from this website page http://mojopin.org/history.php. It's an official tribute plaque located at the Memphis Zoo, it's spelt by his own mother, I think she knows that it was with an "ie" and not a "y". Proof enough? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Samthemoonman (talk • contribs) 20:55, 19 March 2007 (UTC).


 * In Browne, David. Dream Brother: The Lives and Music of Jeff and Tim Buckley. HarperEntertainment. 2001, 2002. ISBN 0-380-80624-X, p. 58, it's "Scotty". In Kane's Jeff Buckley FAQ (1998, 1999), http://www.jeffbuckley.com/rfuller/buckley/faq/02name.html with a letter from Buckley's mother, it's "Scotty". In the source you provide, http://mojopin.org/history.php, it's "Scotty", which by the way is not a Reliable Source WP:RS since it's self-published. About the plaque at the Memphis Zoo, all I can say is they got it wrong. Dissolve 21:23, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Fair point. I've seen it written as Scotty from plenty of sources, I just figured that surely they would spell it right on a specially made plaque. In the end I suppose it's all pretty trivial really :/ Samthemoonman 22:11, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

May 29th 2007
Just thought I'd do something un-editorial for this one day; Jeff Buckley November 17 1966-May 29 1997

RIP Jeff

Elizabeth Fraser
There is no mention in this article to the love Liz Fraser shared with Jeff. I'm disappointed, because I wanted to hear Jeff's side of the story.


 * Buckley hadn't commented much on Fraser in any reliable sources other than saying he was a fan and that she was an influence on him as a vocalist. The best source of info about their relationship from her perspective is Fraser's interview in the BBC documentary Everybody Here Wants You.  dissolve talk  20:56, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Gay or bisexual
Was he Gay or bisexual? Do you know? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)


 * Buckley was heterosexual and had girlfriends since high school, and later had relationships with Rebecca Moore, Joan Wasser, and Elizabeth Fraser. Moore and Wasser had a big influence on Buckley's life and music, which is something I'd like to add to the article at some point.  dissolve talk  04:24, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Gay men found Jeff appealing, so he would joke around by flirting back with them (Rufus Wainwright and the flight attendant on the trip down to Memphis are two examples). He never had a serious relationship with a man, so there is no reason to think that he actually felt attracted to them. 207.172.73.130 (talk) 17:23, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Ulalume
I wonder if Jeff's reading of Ulalume on Closed on Account of Rabies deserves a mention here, and if so, where? IrisKawling 05:31, 20 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Probably an add to the discography would be worthwhile, or if you want to add a line or two to the article in the right chronology, it was recorded shortly before Buckley moved to Memphis according to Hal Willner. It was released posthumously, so a mention after his death might be appropriate too.  dissolve  talk  21:29, 20 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Good ideas.. since it would be his last recording in New York I put it towards the beginning of the death section, but if you disagree with the wording it could go elsewhere. IrisKawling 22:34, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

State of mind
It is mentioned in this article from a quote that authorities had proof that Buckley was in a good state of mind before the event of his accidental drowning. Why, then, would he walk into the water with steel-toed boots, all his clothes, and singing along to a radio he was carrying that was playing Led Zeppelin's "Whole Lotta Love"? Doesn't that seem a little reminiscent of someone a little crazy? I'm not insinuating Buckley was crazy, it just seems out of the ordinary. Can anyone shed some more light on this situation? Thanks if you can. 210.50.189.36 06:42, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

All I can tell you is to watch the documentary "Goodbye And Hello" which you could find on Google Video, and read all and any articles on Jeff Buckley you can find. I state this because I used to believe, a long while ago, that Buckley had committed suicide. Learning about certain aspects of his character, vitally here being his at times carefree and impulsive side, shed more light on his final moments and made the sense that had previously eluded me.

I'll just try to be Succinct; His death was a tragic accident, and every article and video clip I've read or watched has backed up how this was such a thing that he would do, and how the circumstances surrounding his passing didn't surprise them. Watch "Goodbye And Hello". G.AC 00:53, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Tribute Songs
The tribute song list references several Rebecca Moore (Stillettoed Young Stars, Live in Blue Sparks) and a few Joan Wasser songs (Eternal Flame) as being about Jeff. Is there a reference for this? I am a huge fan of both Moore and Wasser, and have never heard either of them say this, but that's not to say I couldn't have overlooked an interview or something.

I know from personal experience how easy it is to read Jeff references into both musicians' work. Petskypiyamaradu 05:03, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The entire Tribute Songs section is unsourced and should probably be tagged as such, and tagged as possible original research as well. dissolve  talk  19:43, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Yah. I confirm that Live In Blue Sparks is (at least partially) about Jeff-- he is mentioned in the lyrics: http://www.bluviolin.com/live_in_blue_sparks.htm (look at the lower paw). I don't know how to add a citation though.... 207.172.73.130 (talk) 17:30, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Bob Dylan's Mississippi is most certainly not a Jeff Buckley tribute. The sessions for the album it was originally written for were before Buckley's death, and the song was probably written in 1996.24.148.7.199 (talk) 02:40, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Yep you're spot on, Time Out of Mind sessions were Jan/Feb 1997. I'm removing it. To be honest I'm sure half the songs there aren't tributes at all but it's good to verify that they aren't. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 15:10, 28 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Live in Blue Sparks added with note in references. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 19:22, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Source on his death?
The best source on his death [2] is a skecky web page? I think a news outlet would be much better.


 * Second source added. Note the reference is when the body was found: not his estimated time of death. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 19:22, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Masterpieces?
it says Ali Gay used some of his songs to create masterpieces? Thats really subjective someone should change that. Besides, I strongly doubt someone called Ali Gay could create a masterpiece.


 * Removed this. It went unreferenced for too long. dissolve  talk  22:58, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Dream Brother: The Lives and Music of Jeff and Tim Buckley
I've created a page here for the book and it's author David Browne too. If anyone can fill out the details it would be much appreciated. I was quite surprised that neither the book nor the author had pages seeing as that's what half this article is based off! Sillyfolkboy (talk) 21:47, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Archive of Jeff Buckley/comments
Note: This list has been replaced with the current "To Do" box and the issues raised have been solved - Thus i have archived it here for clarity. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 19:22, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Improve the lead, add a few more references and it's GA quality.-- Wizardman 00:14, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I've added quite a number of citations to the article. I'm considering reducing some of the citations to improve readability. Many of the citations are from the same source so possibly reducing and consolidating some of those citations, but keep it listed in the References section. Any opinions on this would be helpful.

Things to do:
 * Expand the Concert Tours section to give an overview of Buckley's numerous tours from 1994-1996.
 * Expand Legacy section about Buckley's impact and influence after his death.
 * Write a great lead that encapsulates the whole article and can stand on it's own.
 * Pictures (this may require tracking down more photographs that are fair use or getting permission/licensing to use some of the definitive photographs of Buckley.) An issue has sprung up about the use of album covers in the article. This needs to be sorted out as well: an admin removed them but I'm not informed enough about fair use issues to add an opinion yet.
 * Cite the lists of Tribute/Cover songs. They're valuable, but as it is right now I'm not sure what's POV/opinion, spam or can actually be cited. Although I've tried to limit it to artists that are at least notable enough to merit inclusion on their own in Wikipedia. Dissolve 22:37, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I think this is a brilliant idea, the "Things to Do"-this is definitely something to start with. And I'll see what I can do to help tick this off. G.AC 17:44, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Just had a whole read through and copyedited and created "My Sweetheart the Drunk" section. Expansion of those two sections and a little more in the lead and it should be GA quality.Sillyfolkboy (talk) 20:44, 5 May 2008 (UTC)