Talk:Jeff Durgan

Contentious material
I have commented out contentious, un-cited material as per a request by the article subject at WP:EAR, and suggested that they may wish to take this to WP:BLP/N. Jezhotwells (talk)
 * I've removed it entirely and made further edits. Fences  &amp;  Windows  21:02, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Contentious issues
Not sure why these are "contentious" issues as they are both documented from contemperaneous newspaper articles. It appears to me that someone is attempting to sanitize Durgan's career by deleting this information. Mohrflies (talk) 00:10, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

I am Jeff Durgan. I am attempting to remove information that is prejudicial and inaccurate. The newspaper article states that I stepped on that players head, which is inaccurate. Your post states I "Kicked" the player in the head, which is also innaccurate. I had an altercation with a player on the Canadian side. It is not accurately portrayed in the article or in your post. Please don't believe everything you read in the paper. I am available to discuss my motivations if you would allow me the opportunity. Jeffdurgan@msn.com


 * I suspected it was Durgan making the edits. I also think he made earlier edits in the article under User:Hckcd.  Here's the problem I have.  I was a big F.C. Seattle fan and followed their games religiously.  I remember reading about the game in question in the local papers.  Unfortunately, most of them are not digitized yet.  According to several accounts, Durgan made multiple borderline tackles throughout the first half before he stepped on Catliffe's head.  It was such a big deal that Rioch released him from the team. If the few newspaper accounts I found using a library search engine and quoted below are not accurate, why did Rioch release him? Mohrflies (talk) 02:22, 23 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Only recently have I attempted to edit this page, under the user name notiempo, as its contents were brought to my attention by a prospective employer. Apparently, there was concern that I might kick someone in the head in the workplace because of an incident that occured on a soccer field 25 years ago.  Not your fault or concern, Mohrflies, just a fact.

Please read the article you quote regarding my departure from FC Seattle. Read my quotes. I have copied them here for you: "Saturday night was an unfortunate situation," he said from his Tacoma home. "I guess it came as a result of the frustrations of the past year ... I'm just upset with the whole state of soccer in this country. I don't know when I'll play again. For the time being, I'm going to go to school." Earlier yesterday, FC Seattle Coach Bruce Rioch had released Durgan because of the incident in what he called a "mutual decision."

Yes, there was an incident that night against the Canadian National Team. And yes, I was involved. And while it appeared that I stepped on that players head the fact is, I didn't. I threatened it. I showed him it could happen. But it did not. The papers reported it because thats what it looked like, it's what the referee thought he saw and it was that for which I was ejected. The "mutual decision" between Bruce Rioch and me was based on, as I stated in the article, my frustration with the state of soccer in this country. Bruce knew I was tired, he knew what I had experienced with the Cosmos and with the National Team program and he knew I wanted to get away. This situation offered a convenient opportunity to do so. That is why Bruce Rioch released me. It was a mutual and frankly necessary decision at that point in my life.

As I said below, I respect and appreciate all that you have done to highlight those who played the game in this country. I am honored that you took the time. If I disappointed you as an FC Seattle fan I apologize. All I am trying to do is remove a reference to a single incident 25 years ago that seems to influence how people, re: prospective employers, view me today. Likewise with the pay cut issue you mentioned. yes, we were all asked to take pay cuts and we did. I saw the N.Y. Times article and I don't know why it was reported as it was. There was never any contention, there were no other teams involved and the NASL didn't have a formal waiver process. If you would like to discuss or hear more, you have my email address. Contact me and I'll give you my phone number. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Notiempo (talk • contribs) 03:12, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Cosmos pay cut
Hubert Birkenmeier was asked by the Cosmos yesterday to take a 45 percent cut in his salary, while Angelo DiBernardo, Jeff Durgan and Steve Moyers were asked to take cuts of 20 percent each.

"When the Cosmos asked four of their highest-priced players to take a salary cut several weeks ago, all of them initially balked and as a result were placed on waivers. Three of them - Hubert Birkenmeier, Jeff Durgan and Steve Moyers - were ultimately re-signed by the team at reduced pay." Seems pretty clear cut to me.

Birkenmeier was one of four Cosmos who were waived for refusing to accept cuts, and he became the third to sign a new contract with the club. Jeff Durgan and Steve Moyers had previously reached agreement

Seattle releases Durgan for flagrant fouls
From CANADIANS OUTMUSCLE FC SEATTLE 4-2 THE SEATTLE TIMES - Sunday, July 28, 1985 Author: JIM CAPLE ; TIMES STAFF REPORTER: Seattle played the second half without star defender Jeff Durgan, who was ejected late in the first half. ''The ejection came after Durgan, tangling briefly with John Catliff, sent the Canadian forward to the turf. Then, as Durgan began to trot away, he stepped on Catliff's head'', prompting several Canadian team members to charge after him. When the players were separated, Durgan was given his second red card of the season, leaving Seattle with just 10 players for the rest game.

"July 29, 1985 -- Bruce Rioch releases Jeff Durgan after flagrant actions v. Canada in which he was sent off"

FRUSTRATION COSTS DURGAN HIS JOB THE SEATTLE TIMES - Tuesday, July 30, 1985 Author: JIM CAPLE ; TIMES STAFF REPORTER: Jeff Durgan said it was frustration that led to his behavior Saturday night when he stepped on the head of another player lying on the field. The same frustration has now driven him from soccer. Durgan, considered one of the finest soccer players in the country, said last night that he is leaving the sport for a while. "Saturday night was an unfortunate situation," he said from his Tacoma home. "I guess it came as a result of the frustrations of the past year ... I'm just upset with the whole state of soccer in this country. I don't know when I'll play again. For the time being, I'm going to go to school." Earlier yesterday, FC Seattle Coach Bruce Rioch had released Durgan because of the incident in what he called a "mutual decision." The incident at Seattle 's game against the Canadian World Cup Team began when Durgan tangled over a loose ball with Canadian forward John Catliff near midfield. Catliff fell to the ground, and as Durgan began to move away, he stepped on the forward's head. Several Canadian players charged Durgan and there was a brief scuffle. When the players were separated, Durgan was issued the red card _ his second of the year _ and removed from the game. Playing one man short the rest of the match, Seattle lost to the Canadians 4-2. Though he said he considered Durgan an exceptional player, Rioch said the serious nature of the incident Saturday left him no choice but to release the team captain. "I found him to be a likeable, helpful fellow," Rioch said. "He had tremendous talent as a player and as a team leader ... but we cannot condone his actions and it left me with no other choice."

FC SEATTLE KICKS OFF 3RD SEASON THE SEATTLE TIMES - Saturday, May 17, 1986 Author: CRAIG SMITH: Storm seems a fitting nickname for the team that went through turbulence last season. Low attendance forced player pay cuts and this year all athletes will be unpaid amateurs. There was organizational turmoil in the front office. On the field, Jeff Durgan, a former New York Cosmo, made headlines for stepping on the head of a downed Canadian opponent _ hardly the kind of public-relations gesture the fan-hungry club desired.


 * These are "contentious" in part because of a POV that doesn't stick to what the sources say - as an example, the above sources say he stepped on the other player's head, while the edit you are insisting on says "...kicking Canadian player John Catliff in the head". --CliffC (talk) 00:42, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
 * You're right, he stepped on the player's head. I'll make that change.  Mohrflies (talk) 01:38, 23 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Further, you seem to be cherrypicking to support your POV - you mention Durgan refusing a pay cut but don't mention that other players also refused the pay cut. And you engage in original research when you add "after no other league team expressed an interest in signing him", a conclusion not in the cited NY Times article.  --CliffC (talk) 01:11, 23 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Try this one, it took me 32 seconds - I timed it - to find it using Google: "All four players dropped by the Cosmos in a salary dispute earlier this week cleared waivers yesterday. The refusal of the eight other teams in the North American Soccer League to claim any of the players under the terms of their original contracts meant that Jeff Durgan, who signed a new pact for less pay after he had been waived, was a member of the Cosmos again." Mohrflies (talk) 01:38, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
 * You're portraying the events of the pay dispute to make it sound worse for Durgan, and in general your use of sources is not good enough for a BLP. Fences  &amp;  Windows  03:10, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Jeff Durgan
Mohrflies, I am Jeff Durgan. I appreciate and respect the work you have done on behalf of soccer and those who participated in the game. If I understand the instructions correctly, by signing this post you will see my email address. Please feel free to contact me directly and I will explain my intentions.

Regards,

Notiempo (talk) 02:20, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Team America
Durgan left the Cosmos and signed with Team America. However, the team stumbled to a 10-20 record and the bottom of the league standings.[2] Additionally, Durgan became an outspoken critic of U.S. players who preferred to remain with their original clubs.[3] The targets of his vitriol included Mark Peterson who joined Team America on loan from the Sounders for seven games.[4]


 * I take issue with the term vitriol as directed at other U.S. players. In reference [3], I am quoted as saying Davis needs to get off the fence.  In response to his comment that,"...if this were the true national team, he would be here..." I was noting that if he were here it would be the true national team.  Thus, I am less critical of Davis and simply pointing out the nature of National Team makeup.

As for targets of vitriol, in reference [4], I am not quoted in any way referencing Mark Peterson or any other U.S. player for not joining Team America. The author of this unpublished article simply states that I was critical with no direct reference or quotation. On several occassions during 1983, I did point out that we needed the best U.S. players to be successful. I even mentioned Jeff Stock, Mark Peterson, Ricky Davis and others because they were true National Team members. But my message was to the ownership of Team America and the management of the NASL that they were failing to deliver on the promise and the premise they had developed by failing to create an evironment in which these players would choose to participate.

My concern with this characterization is that I am portrayed as critical of my teammates when in fact I was critical of a program that could not deliver on its promise. This inaccurately portrays the tone and nature of the dialogue occuring at that time. Notiempo (talk) 12:33, 23 November 2009 (UTC)


 * In the NASL, Soccer Goes Second Class Under the American Plan; Washington Post, The (DC) - Saturday, April 23, 1983; Author: DAVE KINDRED: Some of those blues were born for Durgan when other Americans refused to join Team America. "The prevailing attitude in the NASL is that Americans can't play. Now it's come down to a chance to go on the field with all Americans and we'll see. This is the place to be for all Americans."  Those Americans who stayed away, Durgan said, are shortsighted. He named Mark Peterson and Jeff Stock of Seattle, and the Cosmos' Rick Davis and Steve Moyers. . . . "You have to look at the big picture," Durgan said. "Team America will exist. That's a given because Howard Samuels thinks it has great financial and political influence. But then you have to have the best players. I'm one of the best center backs. Because of that, I have to be here. Other players who are the best at their positions aren't here. We know their stated reasons, and it isn't enough  ." Mohrflies (talk) 19:37, 24 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Those statements are hardly "vitriolic" - one more indicator of the bias in the earlier version of this article. Further, I don't see any form of the words "outspoken" or "criticism" in this source, that's someone at Wikipedia's spin.  --CliffC (talk) 20:12, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Sure, he thought that more of his top-flight colleagues should have joined Team America, and voiced this. That's not 'vitriol'. Fences  &amp;  Windows  20:28, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Mohrflies' edits
Mohrflies has twice reverted my cleanup of this article; this action is in violation of WP:BLP. Poorly sourced material about a living person must be removed immediately. The sources used to support the material about Durgan being 'vitriolic' and the reason for him leaving the team in 1985 are not adequate. The sources provided are either not reliable sources or are not available for us to check. As Mohrflies at several points has used sources to support text that they do not in fact support, I cannot trust their reading of sources I have not seen. Mohrflies must discuss these edits rather than continually warring, and must take much more care to adhere to our policy on BLPs. Fences &amp;  Windows  22:11, 23 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I've accessed another news report on the incident: "A Header by Durgan - Jeff Durgan, who played for the Cosmos last season, has the repuation of being a very rough defender. He has done nothing to change that this summer. Durgan was dismissed by Football Club Seattle, a semipro outdoor team which he captained, after kicking John Catliff, a member of the Canadian National team, in the head. Durgan had tackled Catliff from behind, causing both to go down. When Durgan got up, he kicked Catliff in the head. Durgan was ejected from the game, his second in four matches, and dismissed by Coach Bruce Rioch the next day. Durgan remains unsigned for the upcoming MISL season." Fences  &amp;  Windows  22:48, 23 November 2009 (UTC)


 * A story from byline-Knight-Ridder News Service is simply grabbing the local story and reprinting the same inaccurate information. Please see my comments above.

Notiempo (talk) 23:10, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Jeff, we can only go with what sources report. Do you have any other sources, such as interviews you gave at the time, that we can use? We can temper the reference with 'reported'.
 * There's a 'personal life' section which I think we need to remove as it is unsourced. I can find a weak primary source for employment with Voicestream Wireless, but nothing else. Fences  &amp;  Windows  00:28, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, I've left it at reporting an incident involving a tackle, but no details. Discuss any changes before they go back in, please. Fences  &amp;  Windows  00:40, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Thans for your assistance. I wrote the personal life section. It is from my resume. If you feel it needs to be removed or edited down to exclude accomplishments I will do so. Notiempo (talk) 12:10, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * We need some sources for that section. Anything to support it would help. Fences  &amp;  Windows  20:43, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I have deleted information in the personal section, leaving only that I graduated from the University of Washington and that I live in Michigan with my wife and three children.Notiempo (talk) 21:39, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Goals
I found a reference to Durgan scoring a goal with a header in a match against San Diego in 1982 in the NASL, but the stats on the page record 0 goals. Another in a match in 1984 also against San Diego. One against Celtic in 1981 in the Trans-Atlantic Challenge Cup tournament: Fences  &amp;  Windows  20:43, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Goals are for regular season or league games only per the infobox directions. Cup, play off or exhibition goals can be mentioned in the text. Mohrflies (talk) 23:28, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, I couldn't easily tell whether the matches against San Diego were league matches. I'm not sure individual goals are worth mentioning in the text. Fences  &amp;  Windows  01:55, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

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