Talk:Jeffrey Epstein/Archive 6

Netflix series now released
The Netflix series mentioned in the section "In popular culture" has been released. Here's a link to it: https://www.netflix.com/title/80224905

John Link (talk) 03:41, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Too long to read comfortably
This article, at well over 200,000 bytes, is much too long for many readers who want a reasonably detailed overview that they can read in a single sitting. The current article would take many readers well over an hour to read. I'd respectfully suggest that it be cut down to focus on "the main points" in just enough detail to give an encyclopedic overview for the general reader.

There may be scope for subsidiary articles (there is one already for his death), so splitting might be one way to cut down this, the top-level article, leaving summary-style paragraphs and "main" links to the subsidiary articles. Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:43, 29 May 2020 (UTC)


 * WP:SIZERULE applies here. A biography of Jeffrey Epstein is not an exhaustive explanation of all of the allegations against him, but I don't think that the article is unreadable at the moment. BTW, it doesn't take me over an hour to read, maybe I am a fast reader:)-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 13:26, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 May 2020
His descriptor should be changed from "American financier" to "Serial rapist" 2601:14D:8300:19F6:90C6:FECF:20AA:CCF8 (talk) 05:22, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
 * see the thread above. Epstein was convicted of a single sex offense against a minor in Florida in 2008. This is reliably sourced, the "serial rapist" isn't. It is based on allegations rather than court cases.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 06:52, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 May 2020
Add that Jeffery Epstein was a child trafficker Velivon (talk) 14:13, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
 * see the thread above. The opening paragraph does say "He developed an elite social circle and procured many women, including underage girls, who were then sexually abused by Epstein and some of his contacts". The most interesting thing here is the extremely favorable plea bargain that Epstein was able to strike in 2007. Even though Judge Kenneth Marra ruled that Epstein had been involved in what was effectively child trafficking, back in 2007 he was able to limit the charge sheet to the single offense that led to the conviction in 2008. This led to criticism of Alexander Acosta who had allowed the deal, and ultimately his resignation.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 14:57, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 June 2020
There is a graphic that claims a single hedge fund investment caused the 2007-2008 financial crisis, which is objectively untrue 2601:18A:102:EE70:B56B:E5F2:573D:3B29 (talk) 01:53, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * ❌ "Trigger" looks to be correctly cited. Please offer conflicting citation for DUE weight. —DIYeditor (talk) 01:58, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Financier?
The lead describes him as a financier first. However, many RS have cast doubt on whether his "finance" business even existed, and on how he made his supposed wealth; many people in finance have said they've never heard of him or his firm in any financial capacity, there is no evidence that he had any clients, his firm didn't really leave any trail in the financial world and so on. Hence, "financier" might not be the best descriptor, but presently there is perhaps not sufficient information available to use a more precise descriptor.

The descriptor "financier" seems to be a remnant of the absolutely horrible hagiography (and self-serving autobiography?) that existed here previously and that may even have been part of the con, that described him in the first paragraph as "New York's most eligible bachelor [and] one of its brightest minds" and bragged about his alleged wealth and "philanthropy"; in some way Wikipedia for years aided Epstein in promoting a false narrative about himself that ultimately aided his abuse of his victims..

At the very least, we should reverse the order of the current two descriptors: He is primarily known as a sex offender, an activity that unlike "financier" is also well-documented, so it should be mentioned first, before the (at best highly dubious) descriptor "financier". In that sense he is very different from people like Harvey Weinstein or Roman Polanski who've also had well-documented and highly notable careers, and who aren't solely known for sexual abuse. --Tataral (talk) 07:01, 30 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Epstein was convicted of just one sex offense in 2008; we'll never know about the others because he is dead. His case is notable because he was very wealthy indeed and managed to get into all sorts of relationships with other wealthy and powerful people. He is definitely not a normal sex offender due to his wealth and connections. Had Epstein been an average person, the 2008 Florida conviction would have been in the local newspapers and soon forgotten about.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 07:44, 30 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Speculation about what might have happened to someone else is irrelevant. Your claims about him are unsupported; I specifically cited sources above, including one article from NYT, casting doubt on his supposed immense wealth and activity as a "financier." There is no doubt that Epstein, in reliable sources, is primarily discussed/covered as a sex offender and not as a financier. Probably more than 99% of all coverage of Epstein in RS are about Epstein as a sex offender, and I've never seen any coverage of him at all that discusses him as a financier. If "financier" is mentioned it is in connection with his main claim to fame (as a sex offender and sex trafficker), but considering that more recent sources cast serious doubt on his alleged career as a financier, there is even more reason to be sceptical.
 * Whether he was convicted of all his crimes is completely and utterly irrelevant; he is a convicted, registered sex offender who is overwhelmingly known as a sex offender/sex trafficker; this is an encyclopedia, and our articles are based on the coverage of the subjects in reliable sources. An argument that we can't describe a historical figure who was known for (in RS) being a pirate as a pirate (or that the description should be less prominent) because they were never "convicted" by someone is wrong and not based on Wikipedia policy; Wikipedia is not a judiciary and doesn't primarily reflect "convictions", but is based on notability and coverage in RS. A claim that "we'll never know" what he did is also just plain wrong; there is by now a consensus in reliable sources that he was a sex trafficker and sex offender, in the same way that there is consensus among RS that other historical figures were reponsible for a number of deeds and misdeeds despite a lack of court proceedings. Courts are not the sole arbiters of facts from an encyclopedic perspective. Incidentally, this is not the first time/article that you attempt to downplay sexual abuse with spurious arguments and misunderstood legalese not based on policy.
 * I suggest that the order based on the prominence of the descriptors is reinstated, and we might need more discussion on whether "financier", which was added as part of a disgrace of an hagiography and/or self-serving autobiography years ago, is the best descriptor of his business activity or even factually correct. --Tataral (talk) 08:04, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
 * We've had exactly this debate at Gary Glitter. The opening sentence does not say that he is a sex offender, because his primary source of notability is as a pop star. Epstein's extraordinary wealth is the real clue to his notability, because it allowed him to do things that no average person would have been able to do.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 10:17, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Epstein was not a pop star. Epstein is not widely known for anything else than being a sex offender. Before his 2008 conviction as a sex offender, he had a very short article that may have been an autobiography here – with zero interwiki links – that bizarrely claimed that he was "New York's most eligible bachelor [and] one of its brightest minds" (note the vague language that may have been part of the entire con). As late as 2012, he only had biographies in the English and Dutch Wikipedia editions; as of 2017 he had biographies in only five languages, and all of them discussed him primarily as a sex offender. Clearly he was a very obscure figure before his sexual abuse became widely known, especially compared to his current global notoriety. Again you repeat the dubious assertion that he had "extraordinary wealth" and completely ignore the NYT article I mentioned above, and many other sources, that dispute that assertion, and that also point out that his alleged career as a "financier" is dubious at best, and that it hardly left any traces in the financial world. His entire notability relies heavily upon his career as a serial sexual trafficker and abuser; he was relatively wealthy, but a very small player compared to the world's "extraordinarily wealthy", and with a mostly unknown source of income (speculated by various sources to be a Ponzi scheme, blackmail or something other than a real financial business). His main activity appears to have been his sexual trafficking of young girls. --Tataral (talk) 14:06, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Epstein was widely described as a billionaire during his lifetime; he wasn't. Nevertheless, he was very wealthy and his estate was given as $379 million in cash and investments and six properties at $181 million, total $560 million, roughly a half-billionaire. This explains the private jet, island and his generally wealthy lifestyle. The other notable thing about Epstein's wealth during his lifetime was his opaque accounting which made it hard for outsiders to see where all of this was coming from. It is assumed to be from various investments but his published accounts were always famously lacking in detail. Since Epstein's death, the amount of media coverage of the sex allegations has gone through the roof, but it is important not to lose sight of the background to all of this.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 14:25, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
 * And that background is that he was not very widely known before his conviction, compared to his notoriety today, as I demonstrated above, and that his fortune was miniscule compared to real billionaires like Gates or Zuckerberg or even many smaller players. Also, the question here is not whether he was reasonably wealthy, but whether he was professionally active as a "financier," which is questioned by many sources, and especially whether that alleged professional activity is more important as a descriptor than his notoriety as a sex offender (I did not propose that we remove financier now, only that sex offender is mentioned first). We have lengthy articles in dozens of languages about him on Wikipedia now, but that is only a result of his sex crimes, and for years he only had the very short and very ridiculous autobiography on the English edition here. --Tataral (talk) 14:30, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
 * It's clear that the huge controversy over the sexual allegations after his death is now what he is best known for. It 's less clear that the single conviction in Florida in 2008 is what he is best known for. This is why he is described as a convicted sex offender in the lead, because it is true. He was not a convicted sex offender as a result of any of the hundreds of allegations that were made before and after his death, and the two things should not be lumped together. This is misleading.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 18:19, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Although it may seem like hairsplitting, it could easily be solved by describing him as "an American sex offender and financier", which would cover both the crimes that he was convicted of and the crimes that he was not convicted of as a result of his suicide in prison. There is every reason to "lump together" what was the same activity, i.e. sex crimes; his criminal conviction status in each case – whether he was convicted or died in prison awaiting a final sentence – is not something we need to deal with in the first sentence. --Tataral (talk) 22:13, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

With the release of the new documentary on netflix, his criminal pathology, modus operandi, and scope of victimization of young and underage women has been revealed to the world. As this article reads now, it makes it seem like Jeffrey Epstein was a businessman who happened to be a sexual predator, instead of the truth - a criminal, prolific sexual predator, who happened to be a businessman. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:285:202:C9B0:48A8:A66A:9935:3F3E (talk) 23:26, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree, the documentary highlights that he was first and foremost a sex offender, and any business activities were of a secondary nature in his life, and in the public reception of him. --Tataral (talk) 05:41, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * It's time for the Britannica test. What do they say over there? He is described as "an American financier who became a convicted sex offender in 2008 and was awaiting trial on sex trafficking charges when he committed suicide in August 2019".-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 06:54, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Over the last couple of years the public perception of Epstein has changed significantly, while his notoriety has increased exponentially, and that article is not really up to date and in line with how the vast majority of reliable sources describe him in 2020. While he had a stub of a Wikipedia biography (in English only) before his conviction, he was a marginally notable person perceived as one of the less famous and smaller players among the U.S.' billionaires at that time. Today he is a household name the world over who is overwhelmingly regarded as one of the world's most notorious sex offenders, whose "business" activities were grossly exaggerated and/or dubious/unknown, and who wasn't actually a billionaire as falsely claimed in the past. Nearly all coverage of him in RS focus on the Epstein affair that he is known for, and I've not found a single article that discussed him primarily as a financier (with one confirmed client, a decade ago). --Tataral (talk) 09:19, 1 June 2020 (UTC)


 * This Wikipedia article was created in August 2006, which coincides with him being charged in Florida. It's fair to say that media coverage of him has always been linked in some way or other to the controversy involving underage girls.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 09:43, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 June 2020
Worked at camp wahanowin Ontario CA

Worked and owned shares at camp wahanowin Ontario CA 1.132.109.180 (talk) 22:55, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
 * ❌. No reliable sources — no consideration. El_C 22:57, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 June 2020
Two suggested edits, one for inaccurate information and one for grammar.

Incorrect information under the “Legal Proceedings” category. The article incorrectly notes a $600 million bond offer: “ Epstein's lawyers urged the court to allow Epstein to post bail, offering to post up to a $600 million bond (including $100 million from his brother, Mark) so he could leave jail and submit to house arrest in his New York City mansion. US District Judge Richard M. Berman denied the request on July 18, saying that Epstein posed a danger to the public and a serious flight risk to avoid prosecution.[182]”

The cited CNBC article says: “Epstein, 66, asked a judge to release him on a bond of as much as $100 million or more, with conditions that would include requiring him to remain in his New York City mansion, with round-the-clock security monitoring, and an electronic trafficking device.” Another article linked in the cited one also has the $100 million figure, though it says “as much as” and not “as much as or more.” Regardless, the given amount in the wiki article is inaccurate.

Minor grammar suggestion under the “Legal Proceedings” category:

“As of August 2019, none of these men **has** been indicted or sued for related sex crimes, and the deposition does not say which of these men (if any) in fact engaged with Giuffre.”

The word “has” used here should be “have.” While both are grammatically acceptable, “have” improves readability, as it follows “men” which is plural, and the latest word of a subject takes precedence by nature. The AP Stylebook, the Chicago Manual of Style, Garner’s Modern English Usage, the Oxford English Dictionary, and the American Heritage Dictionary Usage Note all agree that a plural verb can be used in cases such as “none of the men have/has.” Edited by james (talk) 07:46, 8 June 2020 (UTC)


 * ✅ corrections were made for both concerns. Cedar777 (talk) 18:47, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 June 2020
Under "Personal Life", paragraph 1.

Where it says "Epstein was a longtime acquaintance of Prince Andrew and Tom Barrack,[195] and attended parties with many prominent people, including Bill Clinton, George Stephanopoulos, Donald Trump,[196] Katie Couric, Woody Allen,[197] and Harvey Weinstein."

Add, Bill Gates former CEO of Microsoft, to the list. JustOneMoreThing1 (talk) 13:38, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * ❌. No reliable sources — no consideration. 13:43, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Name is wrong and should be inlined
The proper spelling of the name is Towers Financial Corporation. Please fix, and inline it. --2604:2000:E010:1100:34ED:B275:BB1D:DF86 (talk) 23:44, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * ✅: Thanks for pointing this out.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 05:27, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Nice to see a nice word on wp this day. Not everyone is so polite. --2604:2000:E010:1100:34ED:B275:BB1D:DF86 (talk) 08:08, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I actually also have another suggestion. Procuring has a special meaning as used here, and we have a wp article on it. Perhaps the first time it is used in the lede, infobox, and text below the lede someone could link it? to Procuring (prostitution).


 * The same with solicitation in the US, which seems to differ from elsewhere, and is also in the article. That might make things more clear for readers. Thanks. --2604:2000:E010:1100:34ED:B275:BB1D:DF86 (talk) 08:12, 11 June 2020 (UTC)


 * I'll have a look at this. If you registered for an account there would be a range of advantages, including being able to edit semi-protected articles like this one directly.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 12:23, 11 June 2020 (UTC)


 * ✅-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 13:18, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Lenient order
This statement: Acosta brokered a lenient deal, according to him, because he had been ordered by higher government officials ... is incomplete. It is very easy to get the impression that Acosta had been ordered to broker a lenient deal. But strictly, it doesn't say what the orders were. If my impression is right (which I do not know) I suggest: Acosta brokered a lenient deal, according to him, because he had been ordered TO DO SO by higher government officials ... --Ettrig (talk) 18:40, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

"huge public skepticism about the true cause of his death"
The sources given in the introduction don't support this statement. They pertain only to the first part of the sentence, about his lawyers challenging the official ruling of suicide. Can anyone provide sources that do show huge public skepticism of his suicide? A poll showing skepticism perhaps? If not, we should remove or modify this claim. Harland1 (t/c) 02:02, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

RESPONSE:

There are many news stories about public disbelief over Epstein's purported suicide: - "Only 33% of Americans believe that Jeffrey Epstein actually died by suicide... Only 33% of Americans believe Jeffrey Epstein died by suicide, indicating a widespread belief in the conspiracy theories that have emerged in the aftermath of the sex offender's death." See: https://www.businessinsider.com/jeffrey-epstein-suicide-death-poll-2019-8 - Congressmen do not believe Epstein committed suicide: "Christmas ornaments, drywall, and Jerry [sic] Epstein,” Sen. John Kennedy, R-La., said. “Name three things that don't hang themselves. That's what the American people think, and they deserve some answers." See: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/senators-demand-answers-jeffrey-epstein-s-prison-death-n1085871 - See also: https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/social-media/after-epstein-s-suicide-conspiracy-theories-flourish-online-n1041106 - See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epstein_didn%27t_kill_himself

Podcast Eric Weinstein
In a podcast Eric Weinstein puts up several questions about Jeffrey Epstein. https://podtail.com/en/podcast/the-portal/25-the-construct-jeffrey-epstein/ (starting around min 17:25). Weinstein brigs up serious questions if Epstein really has made money from the stock exchange etc. --Klaus zinser (talk) 19:52, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Suicide Note
I suggest that the text of Epstein's suicide note be included here. The text seems incredible. It is 23 words, total, written at "Grade 0" reading level, according to automated reading-level systems. The writing style seems more like a tweet than a letter by a sixty-year-old former schoolteacher in prison for serious crimes. For example, there is no mention of, or to, relatives or friends; compare with Kurt Cobain's suicide note, (571 words, grade 6 reading level: https://kurtcobainssuicidenote.com/kurt_cobains_suicide_note.html

Epstein's purported note reads, improbably, and in full: "kept me in a locked shower stall for 1 hour. [Next? Noel?] sent me burnt food. Giant bugs crawling over my hands. No fun!!"

- See: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-handwritten-note-found-in-jeffrey-epstein-jail-cell-60-minutes-2020-01-05/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.130.200.229 (talk) 20:57, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

To add to article
To add to this article: forensic pathologist Cyril Wecht found not one but three fractures of Epstein's hyoid bone (currently the article just mentions that the bone was fractured). 173.88.246.138 (talk) 13:40, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Financier
Recent edits had swapped financier with socialite. Reliable sources do not refer to Epstein as a socialite, and several even point out that he was somewhat awkward and relied heavily on Ghislaine Maxwell to handle his guests and social contacts. Describing him as a financier is not ideal, but since he worked in banking w/ Bear Sterns, then managed Wexner's money for much of his life, it is the closest thing we have for what is definitively known about him at this time. More will likely be revealed, and once reliable sources start calling him something else, we can update the article. Kind Regards, Cedar777 (talk) 01:44, 23 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Epstein is in some ways like The Great Gatsby. He was fabulously wealthy but nobody could quite figure out how he had done it. He also knew a huge range of famous people and threw fabulous parties. He wasn't a regular on the social scene and according to media reports, his social calendar was handled by Ghislaine Maxwell.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 07:04, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Associates
Are these sources reliable for the purposes of stating the names of Epstein's associates?


 * 1) https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/07/jeffrey-epstein-bill-clinton-donald-trump-alan-dershowitz.html
 * 2) https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12045274/jeffrey-epstein-flight-paedos-private-jet-lolita-express/
 * 3) https://dailycaller.com/2020/07/02/ghislaine-maxwell-jeffrey-epstein-list-famous-friends-photos/
 * 4) https://www.insider.com/famous-people-flown-jeffrey-epsteins-private-plane-lolita-express-2019-7
 * 5) https://gawker.com/flight-logs-put-clinton-dershowitz-on-pedophile-billio-1681039971

Thanks in advance. EllenCT (talk) 05:16, 4 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Most of them look dodgy and less than ideal; The Sun (United Kingdom) is a UK tabloid, while the others are also not what you would call blue chip news websites.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 06:53, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The problem is that completely fabricated, unattributed lists are circulating widely. I will try to find at least two approved WP:RSP sources for each. EllenCT (talk) 20:54, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
 * any reasons to believe that any of their specific assertions are suspect? EllenCT (talk) 00:20, 8 August 2020 (UTC)


 * That is a very broad question and WP:BLPSOURCES applies here: "The material should not be added to an article when the only sourcing is tabloid journalism. When material is both verifiable and noteworthy, it will have appeared in more reliable sources." Also, a laundry list of everyone who ever met Jeffrey Epstein or went to one of his parties is not very notable. There is a risk of using this to create guilt by association by implying that everyone who ever met Epstein must have done something wrong.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 06:41, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
 * "A laundry list of everyone who ever met Jeffrey Epstein or went to one of his parties is not very notable"? Given that he was convicted several years earlier, isn't that a list of all the people who had reason but didn't speak up? EllenCT (talk) 17:25, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, if reliable sources say so. However, the article should not use guilt by association to imply that everyone who ever met Epstein either did something wrong or is covering up for him. This would have clear WP:BLP issues.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 18:43, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Rfc about including "disputed" in cause of death
We included "disputed" for cause of death for a very long time and it was removed pursuant to the conversation above me. Therefore, I think Consensus should be invoked to definitively affirm or reject it's removal. GreenFrogsGoRibbit (talk) 10:18, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Support There is absolutely no reason to remove the disputed status. We already have it here Death of Jeffrey Epstein. Plenty of media sources that Wikipedia trusts dispute he died this way too. We must invoke WP:RELIABLE and keep it there. GreenFrogsGoRibbit (talk) 10:17, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep Disputed. Called by bot. Reading the sources over at Death of Jeffrey Epstein, it looks more likely that he was strangled to death. Take for instance this Washington Post article where experts state that Epstein's hyoid bone fractures are more consistent with homicide than strangulation . Also the CBS 60 Minutes story on Epstein's death reports a litany of evidence suggesting a murder and demonstrating at a minimum that Epstein's cause of death can never be known for certain. Guards didn't treat the cell as a crime scene. No photograph of Epstein in his cell was taken. Surveillance footage from three cameras around Epstein's cell from that night isn't usable or available (Reuters). Epstein's cellmate was removed the night before he died, against protocol. Guards didn't check on him. Epstein was much taller than the noose he supposedly set for himself. He's said to have used "paper-thin" sheets instead of real wires available in his cell. He had unexplained injuries on his wrists and shoulders. He had a deep wound mid-throat, rather than below his mandible as would be typical for hanging. -Darouet (talk) 15:09, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose: As I've said above, this is like saying that JFK was killed by Lee Harvey Oswald (disputed). Wikipedia does not do this sort of thing because it leads to problems with WP:CLAIM. The article text can point out if Epstein's lawyers dispute the suicide ruling, but it is not Wikipedia's job to speak in their voice. See also the comments by above.-- ♦Ian Ma c  M♦  (talk to me) 16:10, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose "disputed" for now: It is really unclear to me who is disputing the death determination. Wikipedia editors? Lawyers? Conspiracy crackpots? Here NedFausa tried to clarify who the disputing parties are, (conspiracy theorists). This was then changed to by whom? here, which suggests two people aren't clear about who the disputing parties are. I'm not clear either, so make that three. Sergei zavorotko removed the clarification template here (without resolving the issue, mind you), stating that Epstein's lawyers are who dispute the suicide determination. Well, lawyers dispute everything. That's literally their job. I don't find it noteworthy at all that people paid to advocate for Epstein are contesting the death ruling. No doubt if they won a lawsuit against the prison system for negligence, they'd make a hefty paycheck. GreenFrogsGoRibbit above says "Plenty of media sources that Wikipedia trusts dispute he died this way too." And that was the extent of their argument. So until someone can properly establish what official agencies or entities TBD are disputing this, I'm not comfortable including it. Further, even if there were some uninvolved people who disputed the death cause, is their opinion significant enough to give equal weight in the infobox? Or is their opinion a sentence or two in the body of the article? Cyphoidbomb (talk) 16:45, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep Disputed and wiki-link it to Death of Jeffrey Epstein I'm not sure how popular or well-known Jeffrey Epstein is outside of the U.S., but according to the Death of Jeffrey Epstein article: It seems like only "Barbara Sampson, the New York City medical examiner, ruled Epstein's death a suicide by hanging" and there have been a lot of dispute with that ruling as shown in Jeffrey_Epstein and Death of Jeffrey Epstein, with the cause of death still under investigation by the DOJ and FBI. Some1 (talk) 21:32, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Maybe I'm focussing on the wrong part of this comment, but I'm struggling to understand how a poll of people who have no direct knowledge of the facts of the case would ever be equivalent in weight to the determinations of the people who investigated the case. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 22:38, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose - per ♦Ian Ma c  M♦, in order to avoid having issues with WP:CLAIM. Idealigic (talk) 22:24, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose - per ianmacm and Cyphoidbomb. IF some dispute the verdict (I could not tell whether the coroner hired by Epstein's lawyers STILL disputes the verdict, he did initially), the place to cover the who and why of that is in the body of the text - not to imply it in infobox. IF XX% of the US public thinks there is something fishy about the death, the place for that is also in the body of the text - (though how on earth they could come to that conclusion and whether they all think someone different was responsible - pick your least favourite Democrat/Republican politician or least favourite rich 'insider' - they are obviously guilty). The coverage of the whole Epstein saga is riddled with inference and insinuation, we should not be adding to that by WP:OR-ing our own doubts.Pincrete (talk) 14:33, 5 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Strong support, per user:Darouet, whose post included a preponderance of material, factual arguments for holding the suicide ruling suspect. I also note that none of the opponents has addressed or acknowledged any of those points; rather, their arguments against inclusion of 'disputed' consist mostly of vague, general ad hominem attacks (e.g., crackpot) and appeals to authority (i.e., "because our dear leaders said so, and the honesty and wisdom of our dear leaders is boundless"- style reasoning). Firejuggler86 (talk) 11:55, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
 * We're not here to analyse the facts of the case and decide if we dispute "suicide". That's not our job as Wikipedians. We're here to first establish who is disputing the ruling, then decide whether their opinion is equal in weight to the prevailing opinion of the people who investigated the case. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 13:17, 6 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Support It is disputed. 210.55.76.57 (talk) 23:23, 6 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Oppose - at least, for now. While the law is no race horse, we still need to wait on its weight to weigh in on such dispute, per WP:CLAIM, despite what we, as individuals, may deduce, feel or surmise. Lindenfall (talk) 23:55, 6 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Lean support At least until the FBI and DOJ release their final conclusions. ~ HAL  333  22:44, 11 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Oppose inclusion of disputed. For the infobox, it is sufficient to give the official determination of cause of death; a contrary view is fringe.  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 05:47, 30 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Oppose Wikipedia should go with the medical examiner's ruling. If something changes in the future then change it then, but don't pander to conspiracy theorists while waiting for some crazy revelations to come out. I agree with the Lee Harvey Oswald analogy. NonReproBlue (talk) 08:06, 13 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment Well I asked someone to close this, but they have not and now it's 8-6 against my stance, so I guess we keep this open for a while. GreenFrogsGoRibbit (talk) 19:11, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Until when? Cyphoidbomb (talk) 19:47, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
 * The idea is 7 days, reset every time someone comments in accordance with the rules, but it can be longer if after 7 days I fail to find an unbias source to close the convo. GreenFrogsGoRibbit (talk) 04:38, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah... just a reminder, you don't get to pick who closes this, or that it has to stay open just because your side isn't in the majority. You can certainly place a request for closure that any uninvolved editor can respond to, but you don't "find an unbias source". NonReproBlue (talk) 00:15, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I've already opened a request for closure. RFCs typically last 30 days. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 00:47, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * It's been up for a month, I definitely do have a right to close it or ask someone uninvolved to close this in accordance with WP:RFCEND. The issue is that when I requested this discussion to be closed, the person I requested never actually closed it leaving it open. I forgot about this and when I was going to look for others to close, at least two new people commented. My best comprehension of the rules states that for an rfc to close, not only must it be up for a long time ("30 days after it begins, to avoid a buildup of stale discussions cluttering the lists and wasting commenters' time"), but it can't contain recent comments ("whenever additional comments are still wanted after 30 days, someone should delay"). Because of the new comments, I planned to wait 7 more days to see if any would comment or not since it seems to be an active discussion for some reason. You said, "you don't 'find an unbias source'" uhhh... that's not what the rules say, "Any uninvolved editor can post a formal closing summary of the discussion. The editor removes the rfc tag at the same time." The only point I unequally agree with is " that it has to stay open just because your side isn't in the majority." I very clearly made it seem I would hold this conversation open until the majority was on my side and I apologize for that. I wanted the conversation to be dead, before I shut it down so anyone interested could get a say since people keep adding their opinions. Even if the majority was not in my favor I still intended to shut this down as Wikipedia is not a democracy and more votes means nothing if the arguments are weaker as WP:NOTDEMOCRACY states. GreenFrogsGoRibbit (talk) 07:07, 15 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep Disputed, link to Death of Jeffrey Epstein. We're not in a position to contradict our other articles and the sources cited in them.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:37, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

"Disputed" in infobox
Is there a discussion that resulted in the consensus addition of "disputed" to the death cause that is in the infobox as of this version? I didn't see anything obvious in the archives. I'm also not clear on who specifically is disputing the ruling and it appears thought it referred to conspiracy theorists. I see this, where says that it refers to what the lawyers think. So just from an ambiguity perspective, this information has confused at least two readers.

If the "disputed" refers to what Epstein's lawyers think, that feels to me like we're placing undue emphasis on the opinions of people who are paid to be Epstein's advocates. For instance a criminal defense lawyer is required to argue that you're innocent even after you admit to them that you committed the crime. If Epstein had been convicted of sex trafficking, would his charge read "Sex trafficking; disputed"? Probably not.

Anyway, if this has been hashed out already, then I apologise, but if it has not previously had a wide discussion, it might need one. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 21:48, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Apart from the lawyers' disputing of the ruling, I think it's necessary to put "disputed" into the infobox because pretty much nobody is buying the suicide ruling.Sergei zavorotko (talk) 22:16, 31 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Plenty of people don't believe that Lee Harvey Oswald killed JFK, but five official investigations found that he did. Saying "disputed" would override what the investigators concluded, and it is similar with Jeffrey Epstein. His death was ruled a suicide but some people do not accept this. Saying "disputed" in the infobox runs into problems with WP:CLAIM, as it attempts to call the statement's credibility into question.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 06:15, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
 * In this edit I removed "Ruled" from "Ruled suicide by hanging" for a similar reason as your argument, ianmacm, which is that it sounds to me like the encyclopedia doubts the determination and is sort of pissily saying "OK, it was quote-unquote 'ruled' a suicide". Cyphoidbomb (talk) 21:28, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if you have lots of experience at Wikipedia. Superficially it looks like you have under 400 edits, so forgive me if I sound overly-educational for a moment. At Wikipedia we typically give more weight to what the majority of reliable sources have published as being the dominant conclusion, not what fringe groups or members of the general public think. I'm sure you'll agree that this is important, since these days we have a lot of crackpots out there who have loads of paranoid opinions about all sorts of subjects, so if we didn't have some consistent standard, everything would be "disputed". So when you make an unsubstantiated, bold proclamation like "because pretty much nobody is buying the suicide ruling", I'm not sure who the "nobody" is that you're referring to. Reliable mainstream publications? Or bloggers and people on Twitter who are managing some form of cognitive dissonance? So unless you can present an argument that considers the encyclopedia's requirement that we emphasise what reliable secondary sources say, I'd hardly consider the opinions of his lawyers (primary sources) as having equal weight to what investigators and courts have determined, determinations that have been filtered through our secondary sources. And we certainly would not elevate suppositions by the general public as equal to what the authorities have said, in case that's what you meant by "pretty much nobody". As for your restoration of "ruled", it still sounds to me like the encyclopedia is casting doubt on the circumstances surrounding Epstein's death, so I'm not clear how your restoration was an improvement that maintains our need to present a neutral point of view. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 02:08, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

I don't think the people who dispute the official cause of Epstein's death should be dismissed as "conspiracy theorists". Official pronouncements influenced by political considerations should be given less, not more, credibility than other statements, without evidence to back them up. In Epstein's case, it seems that he knew about illegal behavior by a substantial number of wealthy, powerful, well-connected people, who had every reason to want him out of the way. Furthermore, it's reported that at the time he died, the video camera monitoring access to his cell was disabled or "broken", an extremely suspicious fact in the case of such a high-profile detainee. There are grounds for "significant public skepticism" in just those two points. It is perfectly fair for the article to state that. Wikipedia is not, and should not be, simply a medium for parroting "official" statements. Longitude2 (talk) 19:51, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Request edit on 13 January 2021
First advocate/reporter to break Jeffrey Epstein case in its entirety in a 6 part series is Conchita Sarnoff. The Daily Beast, July 20, 2010-January 25, 2015. https://www.thedailybeast.com/author/conchita-sarnoff 2601:14F:4403:A80:F466:B4B3:9D04:E1E8 (talk) 22:19, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Book, "TrafficKing," by Conchita Sarnoff. Published, April 2016. Reprinted by Simon & Schuster, January 2020. https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/TrafficKing/Conchita-Sarnoff/9781642935318 2601:14F:4403:A80:F466:B4B3:9D04:E1E8 (talk) 22:19, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

(The above requested edit was made by clicking on a link in an automatically added notice.)


 * Please explain what you want changed in a "change X to Y" format, the rationale for the change, and reliable sources to support the proposed changes. Perryprog (talk) 22:35, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
 * We don't just serve to promote people. Lots of folks write books on famous subjects, we don't include all of them. Now, we could include work from your book if it is relevant. If you think the article misses a key dimension, please suggest a sentence and where it should go, with a citation from your book. But we won't just say "this person wrote a book on it". CaptainEek  Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 22:38, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Redlinked John Mark Dougan article
Why is John Mark Dougan still redlinked? According to Craig Unger's new book American Kompromat (2021), Dougan may have given 400+ DVDs containing footage of high-profile people--possibly including Donald Trump himself--in compromising (sexual) positions, made secretly by Jeffrey Epstein, to the Kremlin upon fleeing there. Can someone interested and knowledgeable about this subject start an article? 173.88.246.138 (talk) 22:37, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

About "Epstein Estate"
Please add:

From September 2021 to February 2021 the value of Epstein estate dropped from $450 Million to just $240 Million.

In 2020 Epstein estate’s finances revealed that it had paid out nearly $50 million between June 2020 and December 2020 to more than 100 women who brought claims to the "Epstein Victims Compensation Fund" set up in the U.S. Virgin Islands.

Sources:
 * https://www.celebritynetworth.com/articles/entertainment-articles/value-of-epstein-estate-has-dropped-from-450-million-to-240-million-since-september/
 * https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article248960184.html

The attorney general of the U.S. Virgin Islands, Denise George, filed an emergency motion seeking the immediate asset freeze. She contended in the court filing, which the victims joined, that the estate executors had “mismanaged” the money.

Sources:
 * https://nypost.com/2021/02/05/virgin-islands-ag-wants-to-freeze-epsteins-mismanaged-assets/
 * https://abcnews.go.com/US/jeffrey-epstein-victims-fund-suspend-compensation-offers/story?id=75682137 --93.211.212.156 (talk) 10:22, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done  Caius G. (talk) 14:31, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
 * celebritynetworth.com is not reliable, and listed at WP:RSP. --Hipal (talk) 18:10, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

IP query
Request edit: Why is there conspiracy theories linked as sources on the official Epstein page? Leaving "disputed" next to his official cause of death doesn't align with Wikipedias goal of objectivity, and the more often I visit this site, the more I see instances where individual peoples biases and subjective views make it onto Wikipedias various articles. It hasn't been objectively ruled a homicide, so lending credentials to conspiracy theories doesn't follow Wikis rules of objectively. Also, apologies if I didn't add this entry correctly on the talk page. I'm on mobile and this is my first time attempting to do this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:447:C180:8940:4993:BA66:9936:4A8C (talk) 12:57, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm not familiar with the matter, but here's my two cents: Wikipedia summarises what reliable, secondary sources say about the subject of the article. I don't know what happened exactly, but I have heard that a large number of people have disputed the cause of Epstein's death, and that this and the associated conspiracy theories have recieved plenty of coverage in such sources, which is why (I presume) that "disputed" word appears. I however think that more informed people might give more satisfactory answers!  Java Hurricane  14:53, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
 * There was an RfC over 'Disputed' being in the infobox and the result was 'No consensus' meaning the status quo stays, which is to leave it there: Talk:Jeffrey Epstein/Archive 6. Some1 (talk) 15:37, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Sure -- but really it should go, because the IP is right in suggesting that it's nothing more than a conspiracy theory, people throwing mud hoping some of it sticks. Perhaps another RfC... Nomoskedasticity (talk) 15:53, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
 * The previous RfC was closed 4 months and 1 day ago, and you !voted to have it removed. I believe you could contact User:S Marshall to challenge the RfC close. Some1 (talk) 16:05, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I've gone ahead and removed it, given that the RfC was half a year ago. "Epstein didn't kill himself" was more of a meme catchphrase than anything else. Hemiauchenia (talk) 13:27, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Someone reverted you, and then I reverted a person who violated policy and deleted it again. Whatever you or I think happened, an RfC from half a year ago still has more weight than one editor's opinion in the present. Consider this me challenging its removal. There would still have to be a new consensus. Prinsgezinde (talk) 10:12, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
 * "New consensus" implies that there was an "old" consensus. Where's the evidence for that??  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 12:02, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
 * @Prinsgezinde: Please don't leave edit summaries like "Violation of 0RR. The edit of Hemiauchenia was challenged by AgeOfPlastic. The onus to get consensus is on you, not them. Also goes against a previous RFC" when the article is under 1RR, not 0RR, and the RFC you cite was closed with no consensus. 0RR is a very specific and very unusual restriction, usually applied to specific editors as a result of arbitration. In any case, if a particular part of an article is considered fixed as a result of the RfC, it is best practice to include a note to that effect in hidden text, especially if the RfC has been archived.
 * In more general terms, I stand by my recommendation that necessarily abbreviated infobox text not be made to do heavy lifting about contentious or nuanced discussions better suited for the text in the article body.  Acroterion   (talk)   12:50, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The last RfC resulted in no consensus meaning that the status quo of "disputed" must remain until something forms to overturn that.  Spy-cicle💥   Talk? 15:29, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
 * That's not exactly how either RfCs or consensus works - there's no consensus; the closer elected to leave it in place for the time being, which is fine, but not conclusive. I recommend that an RfC be re-opened - it's been quite some time since the memes concerning Epstein were prevalent, which may have colored the history at that time.  Acroterion   (talk)   15:31, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I think we're all fine with reopening the RfC. The problem was that a change that was last closed as having "no consensus" was now unilaterally made by one or two editors. Prinsgezinde (talk) 20:17, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

RfC: Epstein death infobox
Should the infobox include "disputed" in the cause of death section? Hemiauchenia (talk) 13:23, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

Survey

 * No The heat surrounding Jeffrey Epstein's death has died down now, and the fact that he died by suicide by hanging has not been seriously challenged. We don't say that the JFK assassination is disputed because it has been subject to widespread conspiracy theories. Hemiauchenia (talk) 13:23, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * No - Per - I would also add that without any solid evidence to the contrary anything that is assumed is speculation and does not meet the reliable sources requirements here. DoctorTexan (talk) 18:20, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Weak yes, at least for now. To be clear, I do believe he killed himself. I challenged the removal because it tried to resolve something that was formerly contentious without restarting the discussion. But I do think there's some validity in calling it disputed. The Death of Jeffrey Epstein article highlights reactions, investigations and suspicions of prominent involved individuals (including people his like defense attorney) voicing their doubts. These doubts are not always backed by evidence, and some of them are most certainly baseless conspiracy theories, but they're there nonetheless. They're not gone either. Literally 3 hours ago, The Independent wrote "While Epstein’s death was ruled a suicide by New York City’s medical examiner, the circumstances leading up to his death – including constant monitoring of his cell – prompted questions on how he was able to take his life without being noticed." Wikipedia gets weird when it comes to political stuff. Venezuela still gives as President "Nicolás Maduro (disputed)", when de facto there really isn't a question of who's in charge. I think this issue was made so contentious by the (now fortunately ex-)President promoting the conspiracy theory that the Democratic Party, specifically Clinton, was involved. I get that. Anyway, if it is kept, I would suggest making it a Wikilink, as in "(disputed)". Prinsgezinde (talk) 17:38, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * That quote from the guardian does not support that the manner of death is disputed. Wondering "how" someone killed themselves without being noticed is not the same thing as wondering "if" someone killed themselves. NonReproBlue (talk) 04:11, 23 May 2021 (UTC)


 * No The WP:RS requirement never sleeps. Neither speculation nor our individual beliefs have merit here. Lindenfall (talk) 21:52, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * No - people voicing their doubts is not the same as evidence being presented that actually disputes the suicide ruling, and the questions on how he was able to take his life without being noticed have been resolved as well. Also agree with Prinsgezinde's Lindenfalls persuasive comment. Isaidnoway (talk) 01:03, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * No There has been plenty of time for any additional information to come out, and nothing of substance has. The only remaining "dispute" is in the minds of those who won't accept reality. We shouldn't pander to conspiracy theorists, nor his lawyers.NonReproBlue (talk) 04:09, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * No -- ffs, let's try to live in the real world and not give airtime to conspiracy theories. If there was ever a case for including this (doubtful), let's ask: how long would it remain "disputed"?  If there is some alternate perspective on how he died, it should take root and become the definitive answer.  That is manifestly not happening.  Are we still going to have "disputed" in the infobox 1 year from now?  5 years?  10 years?  Enough already...  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 07:36, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes the majority view is that his death was a suicide as done by the official inquest. But Dr. Michael Baden and others point to towards something else, still the minority view but worth noting in the infobox. Same thing is done for Alan Turing. Also points made by Prinsgezinde are convincing.  Spy-cicle💥   Talk? 07:45, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * No. Not in the infobox, not in the lead. The conspiracy theory BS about his death can be mentioned, within WP:DUE and WP:FRINGE limits, in the article body.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  07:46, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * No: Not in the infobox, but this can be mentioned in the text of the article. Simply disputing the cause does not make it true, and the sourcing needs to be reliable to avoid WP:FRINGE problems.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 07:52, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Probably not The level of doubt does not rise to the level of any serious current dispute AFAI can see, though some relevant sources are paywalled to me. A few anomalies in the immediate inquest evidence and a mass of speculation and surprise in the immediate wake of his death don't seriously constitute any dispute IMO. BTW, the "Autopsy" section is a mess of unattributed claims whose primary purpose appears to be to re-argue the case and question the official version. While I don't object to attributed doubts (duly weighted) - unattributed re-arguing of the evidence is WP:OR and isn't what we do. The half-line coroner's verdict is buried among masses of (unattributed) "reasons you shouldn't believe this" text . By doing this, we are feeding, rather than recording doubts about the verdict. Pincrete (talk) 08:50, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * No. We go by reliable sources, we don't promote conspiracy theories just because random people happen to believe those conspiracy theories; this is just how WP:NPOV works. I'm uncomfortable with the lead too, it seems to imply that his death was merely only ruled a suicide by a medical examiner, and that this ruling is widely disputed. WP:DUE doesn't say to represent all the significant viewpoints that random people believe, it is to represent the significant viewpoints published by reliable sources. If up to date, reliable sources like the Associated Press or the New York Times describe that the cause of his death was a suicide matter-of-factly, then we should too. Cut out the conspiracy theory BS. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 15:53, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * No. Those disputing the ruling of his death as suicide have no concrete evidence to show otherwise.BristolTreeHouse (talk) 17:26, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * There wouldnt be any "concrete" though, would there? There's more than a preponderance of circumstantial evidence, including evidence suggesting steps were taken to ensure that there wouldn't be any concrete evidence (such as shutting off the nearby security cameras that day).  There's no proof and there isn't ever going to be proof: not ever. But to claim there's no evidence is a bold faced lie. Firejuggler86 (talk) 18:53, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * No. It shouldn't be in the infobox or lead as its just speculations with no reliable evidence. Sea Ane (talk) 23:06, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * No. Conspiracy theory can be mentioned in the body. -- Almaty  ✉✎ 10:26, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * No. Wikipedia is not the place to promote fringe theories. Conspiracy theories about his death can be mentioned in the body. RedAlert 007 (talk) 12:33, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes - there is more than ample circumstantial evidence to cast reasonable doubt on his death being a suicide; this has all been discussed ad nauseum before, and it is all reliably sourced. The fact is, though, there is really nothing new to say about his death, and there is unlikely going to be. There ARE however, lots and lots of pieces of news continuing to come out regarding Epstein himself, and the long litany of other famous people and their dealings with him (Bill Gates being the latest AFAIK). Nearly every single one of these stories is going to mention his "death by suicide in 2019" as a one-liner. It should not be expected that these articles will mention any disputes over whether his death was a suicide, because these articles are not about his death. Therefore, they should not be used for any tallying of sources that only say suicide and nought else, in order to form some WP:UNDUE argument. Firejuggler86 (talk) 18:41, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * That seems like an incredibly convenient way to ignore how that the vast majority of RS describe it in order to put undue weight on a fringe position. It would actually be incredibly UNDUE to describe this in a way that is contrary to the nearly unanimous way that RS describe it. (Also, by your argument, this article is also not about his death any more than they are, so we should follow their lead and not mention it). NonReproBlue (talk) 21:15, 26 May 2021 (UTC)


 * No - Fringe view on his death is very well documented and should definitely be mentioned in the main body, but not in the infobox. PraiseVivec (talk) 12:04, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Not in IB but should be mentioned in the lede. ~ HAL  333  02:08, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
 * No - not only has there not been any kind of authoritative challenge, conspiracy theories largely don't dispute that he committed suicide in the way described, including the source given. Instead, the suggestion by some is that he was not monitored properly.OsFish (talk) 04:51, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Strong Yes - I didn't think anyone would ever challenge this again. Nice sneak attack I gotta hand it to you. Obviously, you win this one and the "disputed" will be removed, but it would be a shame if someone started an Rfc a few months from now and got it back. Not saying I am gonna do that. GreenFrogsGoRibbit (talk) 10:01, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Since you participated in the last RfC, you should have known the close of that RfC was determined to be without consensus, or maybe you didn't read the close, I don't know. But regardless, it's perfectly reasonable to re-visit the issue since no consensus was firmly established for inclusion or exclusion. Closing statement of the previous RfC, first sentence - I can't discern a consensus below. The stable version of the article includes the word "disputed", and with Wikipedian content decisions, the convention is that without consensus, the word "disputed" should remain in place for the time being. (emphasis mine) So I don't know why you would think it would never be challenged again, and it certainly isn't sneaky or an attack, nor is it a game where someone wins or loses. And finally, since your !vote consists of an attack on the process and an editor, it will likely be ignored by the closer of this RfC. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:21, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Discussion
. Hemiauchenia (talk) 13:32, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

Next time you slander me and falsely asserted that I violated WP:CIVIL all I ask is that you tag me. Just tag me next time so I can fully respond to everyone of your erroneous points in a manner that complies with WP:ETIQ. GreenFrogsGoRibbit (talk) 04:04, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
 * No. Isaidnoway (talk) 06:34, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
 * - Just as an outside editor looking in, I don't think the sneak attack comment was necessary. It makes you look petty. Also, I don't think threats of "started an Rfc a few months from now" are productive. When the community comes to a consensus it should be respected. That is unless new information comes to light. Maybe I am missing something but I don't see any claims of violating WP:CIVIL. Based on what I read from the previous Rfc, I believe there was no consensus and reopening this to get a consensus would be an appropriate action.
 * Also a couple of quick things. 1) I think you meant libel, not slander. 2) I would ask you to be careful as this could be construed as a legal threat in violation of No legal threats. Libel/Slander are words that are used in law. Often with regards to litigation. If you feel you have been a victim of libel I would encourage you to follow the procedures listed at Libel.
 * Michael-Moates (talk) 06:27, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Oh no, I meant slander as defined by the dictionary "make false and damaging statements about (someone)". I think claiming that I violated No legal threats is a reach. I've seen users banned under that policy and everytime there was a cognizable threat of legal action or an implication that legal action might occur. I don't believe merely asserting that a user said false statements about me comes close to implying I am gonna do anything serious about it. Especially since there was no slander on my actual name. I largely agree with the rest of your comment. My initial comment does look silly in hindsight. However, where I do disagree is how you ignore that I said: "it would be a shame if someone started an Rfc a few months from now and got it back. Not saying I am gonna do that." GreenFrogsGoRibbit (talk) 17:13, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
 * It might help avoid future wikistrife if you became aware of the "It would be a shame if..." meme: while you may not have meant it as a threat, that's how the phrase is used. Any protestations of personal innocence or goodness only compound the impression of threat. Best avoided if that's not what you mean. Best, OsFish (talk) 04:16, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
 * "Any protestations of personal innocence or goodness only compound the impression of threat." I vehemently disaccord here. I largely abide by the legal standard that a threat is either an implicit or explicit promise of some sort of imminent action perpetrated by the individual who made the promise. Anything else, can't meet the threshold of being a threat. To be sure I did say "It would be a shame if..." because I do expect someone to one day challenge this consensus established here, but as I said immediately after "Not saying I am gonna do that." In sum and substance, I expect someone to challenge the outcome of the consensus established by that person will not be, nor will it be anyone connected to me. Future wikistrike will likely occur, but while I understand yet disagree with the consensus established here I feel there are other things to do on Wikipedia than to challenge this especially in vain. GreenFrogsGoRibbit (talk) 04:54, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
 * - I agree with, wether you meant it as a threat or not, that is how it comes across to many. Also you again continue to use legal language like "slander" or "largely abide by the legal standard." This is borderline No legal threats. While you may not intend on filing legal charges, you are making statements that could be perceived as legal threats. Encourage you to do more research on the differences of slander vs libel. Slander is the spoken word while libel is the written word. Both are lies but one is spoken and one is written. You are wrong in the way you use slander.
 * I ask you to consider 3 things. First, you went after an editor and claimed what someone could perceive as a legal threat. Second, there are three editors here simply asking you to consider what you are saying. Third, you are using lots of legal language. Very Respectfully, Michael-Moates (talk) 08:45, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

Conspiracists back at the infobox again
The "disputed" was added to the Infobox again. I removed it, but that can't be the last time it will appear. Woo, woo! Activist (talk) 14:57, 1 June 2021 (UTC)


 * I mean we could request higher protection on the page or you could warn the users who edited it that what they put in violated the consensus. It depends on how persistent the changes are. Obviously, I support "disputed", but I support defending the above reached consensus more. We could also tag the users to see if they are invoking WP:IGNORE. Also a real shame the earlier discussion was locked before I could address Michael-Moates final point. I really really wanted to.GreenFrogsGoRibbit (talk) 21:21, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
 * - ✅ I have requested protection. Michael-Moates (talk) 10:40, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Awesome. GreenFrogsGoRibbit (talk) 22:28, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Edit extended-protected
Add the category "People named in the Paradise Papers" to this article because he appears in these papers. See also: List of people and organisations named in the Paradise Papers. Thanks, --KajenCAT (talk) 10:36, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
 * ✅ ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:05, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed protected edit request August 19, 2021
Secondary autopsies to Mr. Epstein have shown a complete fracturing of the hyoid bone, which is indicative of murder. As of May 22, 2021, guards within the federal bureau of Prison have admitted to falsifying records to obfuscate details surrounding the death of Mr. Epstein. Therefore it is substantive that I request you change his cause of death to “murder” and underneath present “claimed suicide by hanging”. 2607:FEA8:28E0:3B00:15CE:EEB2:21BB:405D (talk) 02:46, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: there was recently an RfC on this, which resulted in consensus for the infobox to just say "suicide by hanging": Talk:Jeffrey_Epstein/Archive_6. &#8209;&#8209;Volteer1 (talk) 04:21, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

"On July 23, 2019, three weeks prior to his death, Epstein was found unconscious in his jail cell with injuries to his neck. Epstein believed that he was attacked by his cellmate,"
This wording doesn't make a lot of sense, wouldn't it make more sense to say that he told the guards or something? "Believed" is such an odd phrase to use in a wikipedia article. Wouldn't it make more sense to use the word "suspected", or similar? Belief would imply wikipedia is talking about his mental make-up or something.--Phil of rel (talk) 01:00, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I think it just comes from the cited article: Epstein said he believed he had been attacked. Would you prefer "said he believed" or something like that? &#8209;&#8209;Volteer1 (talk) 05:56, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

More of Jeffery's Family
Jeffery's brother is named Mark Epstein, who has two children; Jacob and Erin Epstein.ErinEpstein (talk) 22:40, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Epstein’s “racist theories”
Looks like his interest in eugenics may have extended to race and intelligence. According to this article, Steve Bannon coached Epstein for 15 hours on an interview aimed at rehabilitating his image (which never actually aired), and one of the things he advised him was “not to share his racist theories on how Black people learn”. 2604:2D80:6986:4000:0:0:0:CD6 (talk) 21:33, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

Cause of death
Surely it should be Suicide by Hanging (disputed) IsaacTW3001 (talk) 12:00, 5 October 2021 (UTC)


 * The wording in the infobox was discussed in a request for comment, Talk:Jeffrey_Epstein/Archive_6. This ended as "no consensus", but personally I don't think that the infobox is a suitable place for adding the word, although it is ok to point out that some people have disputed this in the main text of the article.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 14:18, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Did you even bother to read the entire archive? The later RfC Talk:Jeffrey_Epstein/Archive_6 was a clear concensus against. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:13, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
 * OK sorry, I used the search box. This has been discussed before and the most recent consensus was against this.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 18:41, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

On Alan Turings page the cause of death is listed as disputed. His death is also far less disputed than Epsteins. I think given it is almost universally dispute by people it won't do any harm to mention that in the infobox especially given the only reason the infobox lists the cause of death is due to how much of a topic of discussion it is for the subject of the article. IsaacTW3001 (talk) 23:10, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Two points: first, WP:OTHERCONTENT. Decisions by editors on one page don't determine decisions on other pages. In each instance, consensus must be reached according to policy among editors involved. Second, "disputed" needs to be by credible sources. As it happens, in the Turing case, there is a respected, non-controversial expert on Turing who disputes the decision of the decades old inquest. "Disputed" isn't measured by weight, but by quality.OsFish (talk) 03:58, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Cause of death is strongly disputed. An "official" decision is not necessarily an "objective" one. Yes, there was a poll which is archived, and it received more votes for not adding "alleged" or "disputed". But the poll was (a) not publicized, (b) apparently only open for four days, suggesting vote-stuffing by supporters of the status quo. Unless and until there is an impartial enquiry into the cause of death, such a definite statement of cause of death is unwarranted and inconsistent with NPOV policy. There is no consensus as to whether Epstein was killed by his own hand or by someone else. "Cause of death: alleged suicide" would be appropriate in the infobox. Insulation2 (talk) 13:55, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 November 2021
Jeffrey was the oldest of two siblings; him and his brother Mark grew up in the working-class neighborhood of Sea Gate, a private gated community in Coney Island, Brooklyn.

Grammatical correction. Change "him and his brother" to "he and his brother". 71.222.39.216 (talk) 23:31, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
 * ✅ — IVORK Talk 00:53, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 December 2021
Epstein was never convicted he was only charged prior to his hanging 69.127.119.203 (talk) 05:20, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: In 2008, Epstein pled guilty to, and was convicted of, soliciting prostitution from a minor. Firefangledfeathers 05:33, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Correct, some victims as young as 12 (not 14 as stated)
Correct, some victims as young as 12 (not 14 as stated) 90.252.35.46 (talk) 00:13, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Format issue?
The picture in the conviction section is displayed as text currently (In Firefox and Falkon on my machine), but when i try to fix it and use preview it is displayed correctly but as soon as i save it, it is displayed as a text string again. Not sure what's causing that (nor how to fix it).--Kmhkmh (talk) 18:14, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Fixed it, I think. Found a formatting error on another file and when I fixed it, this one started displaying correctly for me. <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 12px #ceff00, -4px -4px 12px #ceff00;">Etamni &#124; &#9993; &#124; ✓ 03:40, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

A few representative photographs?
How can this encyclopaedia entry be improved? We certainly have the man's 'vital statistics': date-of-birth etc. -- a few photographs too. He didn't enter the financial world conventionally but developed a flair for dissolving certain kinds of awkward problem for some very rich men. ~He died just over two years ago. There is speculation about what led to him being pronounced dead in the circumstances he was. The death has a separate page in this encyclopaedia. ~I imagine that photographs of him are seen, and seen again -- along with recent news (it now being the first days of 2022). I don't think it is possible to say what this man was without showing and briefly talking about, the photographs with celebrities -- and of course, with one G.M.. Peter Andrewartha (talk) 12:19, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Do you have photographs already uploaded to suggest?Maria Gemmi (talk) 12:39, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
 * There are plenty of photographs showing Epstein with celebrities but they are probably WP:NFCC. This limits their usefulness as the copyright purists monitor fair use closely.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 17:21, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Pedophile?
There appears to be consensus in the press (and among the general public) that Jeffrey Epstein should be referred to as a 'pedophile' -- shouldn't that be reflected here?

See, e.g., https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/15/world/europe/prince-andrew-interview-epstein.html, https://www.courthousenews.com/verdict-is-in-after-monthlong-sex-trafficking-trial-of-ghislaine-maxwell/, and https://www.insider.com/ghislaine-maxwell-former-assistant-describes-waning-epstein-romance-2021-12 ("convicted pedophile"); https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/30/us/ghislaine-maxwell-thursday/index.html ("late convicted pedophile"); https://www.foxnews.com/us/jeffrey-epsteins-secret-500k-settlement-accuser-released-prince-andrew-rape-lawsuit ("late pedophile"); and https://www.vanityfair.com/style/2021/12/how-the-only-known-photo-of-prince-andrew-and-the-pedophile-happened ("pedophile").

Thewritestuff92 (talk) 15:20, 4 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Hopefully, when we refer to an encyclopaedia or car manual we will get the truth, and not put the wrong oil in or do the wrong thing in other matters. The photo of Jeff in 1980 seems okay.  And I can still climb a hill, take a photo of miles of fields, and believe the Earth is flat.  The camera won't be lying.  A photo may be captioned by a photographer but the real geometry will be there to see, even tens of years later.  ~There aren't photos of individuals four hundred years back.  A man could be called a heretic by the Inquisition.  The charge hasn't stuck.  He remains Galileo to me, not Herey-Gal...  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peter Andrewartha (talk • contribs) 11:59, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Cause of Death
Surely, it should not show his death as by hanging (possibly). The official records show suicide by hanging as the cause of death, and Wikipedia shouldn't show what are effectively conspiracy theories with credibility. 82.46.151.193 (talk) 23:00, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Why not? 2001:1970:564B:4700:8D58:E73C:942C:DE0A (talk) 04:14, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Already been fixed, as of RFC above. Gaioa  (T C L) 09:37, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

hello
In 2000, Maxwell moved into a 7,000-square-foot townhouse, less than 10 blocks from Epstein's New York mansion.

less -> fewer — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1012:B047:24C7:B5D7:CCF8:5A35:6BA2 (talk) 18:59, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Early life
In Jeffrey Epstein Early life I propose a link to be added, if apropriate, changing text from Jeffrey was the oldest of two siblings; he and his brother Mark grew up in the working-class neighborhood of Sea Gate, a private gated community in Coney Island, Brooklyn.[26] to Jeffrey was the oldest of two siblings; he and his brother Mark grew up in the working-class neighborhood of Sea Gate, a private gated community in Coney Island, Brooklyn.[26]

assuming Sea Gate on Coney Island is a private community of a type described by that WP article. --Marjan Tomki SI (talk) 20:58, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
 * That's sensible.Maria Gemmi (talk) 12:31, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Occupation
Wikipedia lists “sex trafficker” as one of Ghislaine Maxwell’s occupations. Why not Epstein’s? 69.126.189.106 (talk) 02:06, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Infobox cause of death?
Epstein's death and theories thereof are already widely discussed in bodies of articles, but how should it be typed in the infobox? This has been edited back and forth for quite a while, and I think it'd be good with some consensus on the topic to keep disagreeable edits out. This would apply both to the articles Jeffrey Epstein and Death of Jeffrey Epstein. And once again to clarify, this is only for the infobox text. Gaioa (T C L) 11:54, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Option A:  without qualifiers or adjectives
 * Option B:
 * Option C:
 * something else
 * Option A Because the other versions are UNDUE. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 12:43, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Option A: See Talk:Jeffrey_Epstein/Archive_6 which ruled out "disputed". Option B has the same problem because of WP:CLAIM.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 14:09, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Provisional option A per the NYT source below. That said, I would note that WP:WIKIVOICE says we should not state disputed information as fact. Here "disputed" would mean "disputed by sources". I will check back later and if sources disputing option A have been added to the list below, I will consider how strong they are or aren't. Adoring nanny (talk) 14:17, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Option A: We follow reliable sources. – Anne drew  14:29, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Option A: for reasons given above.--Jack Upland (talk) 18:17, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

To add to article
The article states:

"The will named two longtime employees as executors"

To add to this article (in order to make it more properly encyclopedic): the names of these two longtime employees. They are Darren K. Indyke and Richard D. Kahn. 173.88.246.138 (talk) 04:15, 18 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Not needed per WP:BLPNAME. They are not major players and this wouldn't add significant value to the article.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 08:08, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

Gift by Jeffrey Epstein of $275,000 to Santa fe Institute think tank
The Santa Fe news says Jeffrey Epstein gave $275,000 to the Santa Fe Institute, a mathematics think tank studying complexity theory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Treonsverdery (talk • contribs) 22:46, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Jeffrey Epstein and William Henry "Bill" Gates III
Hello. I was wondering why billionaire Bill Gates -- who is indubitably a "high profile individual" -- isn't listed among the, erm, 'luminaries' who maintained long-term contacts with Epstein on Epstein's Wikipedia page. The New York Times holds no brief for Gates.

Here. Look:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/12/business/jeffrey-epstein-bill-gates.html

From the article:

"Jeffrey Epstein, the convicted sex offender who committed suicide in prison, managed to lure an astonishing array of rich, powerful and famous men into his orbit. There were billionaires (Leslie Wexner and Leon Black), politicians (Bill Clinton and Bill Richardson), Nobel laureates (Murray Gell-Mann and Frank Wilczek) and even royals (Prince Andrew). Few, though, compared in prestige and power to the world’s second-richest person, a brilliant and intensely private luminary: Bill Gates. And unlike many others, Mr. Gates started the relationship after Mr. Epstein was convicted of sex crimes."

In the article, Gates, to be sure, when questioned on the nature of the relationship by the Wall Street Journal (hyperlinked by the Times; behind paywall here: https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-mind-of-bill-gates-revealed-on-netflix-11568107801)), denies its significance; but, that's par for the course when your boon companion is arrested (again!) for multiple counts of sex trafficking minors.

It's also worth nothing that the Gates-Epstein syndicate was established AFTER Epstein's initial prison term for child sexual abuse and prostitution and was only completely terminated, according to the Times article, in late 2017.

"Mr. Gates and the $51 billion Gates Foundation have championed the well-being of young girls. By the time Mr. Gates and Mr. Epstein first met, Mr. Epstein had served jail time for soliciting prostitution from a minor and was required to register as a sex offender....And in October 2014, Mr. Gates donated $2 million to the Massachusetts Institute of Technology’s Media Lab. University officials described the gift in internal emails as having been “directed” by Mr. Epstein. Ms. Arnold said, “There was no intention, nor explicit ask, for the funding to be controlled in any manner by Epstein.” Soon after, the relationship between Mr. Epstein and Mr. Gates appears to have cooled. The charitable fund that had been discussed with the Gates Foundation never materialized. Mr. Epstein complained to an acquaintance at the end of 2014 that Mr. Gates had stopped talking to him, according to a person familiar with the discussion. The relationship, however, wasn’t entirely severed. At least two senior Gates Foundation officials maintained contacts with Mr. Epstein until late 2017, according to former foundation employees."

In all fairness, I admit my own personal bias: I am not too keen on people who willingly associate with convicted sex offenders. But I request this edit in good faith. Bill Gates is about as A-list as it gets. So does my edit request have merit or is it meretricious (no pun intended)?

SpicyMemes123 (talk) 00:36, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

Explanation of proposed edits to the section "Career > Investments > Hedge Funds"
I work for The Law Office of Thomas G. Amon on behalf of Daniel Zwirn, a hedge fund manager whose previous hedge fund, the D.B. Zwirn Special Opportunities Fund, is a topic of the paragraph I am proposing changes to.

The first paragraph of the section “Career > Investments > Hedge Funds” of the Wikipedia article “Jeffrey Epstein,” as currently constituted, contains a number of statements that do not accurately reflect information in the source material or that are not relevant to the paragraph and, in context, could leave an inaccurate impression.

One reason this paragraph merits change is that one of its major cited sources, an article originally published by New York magazine in 2019, was recently (January 2022) updated by the publisher to increase accuracy. These changes to the source article were material; for example, in the update of the source article, an underlying premise of the original article and the basis of its original headline—the idea that Jeffrey Epstein lost money in the hedge fund that is the main subject of the Wikipedia paragraph—was removed from the article text, and the headline was correspondingly changed from “How Jeffrey Epstein Lost $80 Million in a Hedge-Fund Bet Gone Bad” to “Jeffrey Epstein’s Hedge-Fund Bets Gone Bad.”

Further disclosure: It was Mr. Zwirn’s current firm that brought the need for these updates to the New York magazine source article to that magazine’s attention recently and requested that the updates be made. New York magazine then updated the article.

In the interest of making the paragraph in Wikipedia more accurate and more informative on the topic of the section, I reviewed the current Wikipedia paragraph, its source material, and other credible, relevant public sources of information with the assistance of an experienced former financial journalist, with the goal of having any proposed edits meet Wikipedia standards for accuracy, relevance, scope, and quality of sources. The result is that all of the sources cited in the proposed, revised paragraph are sources that are currently used and cited in the existing paragraph (including the now-updated New York magazine article mentioned above) except for one additional, new source, a publicly available news article published by Dow Jones/MarketWatch.

The existing Wikipedia paragraph and my proposed edited version appear directly below, followed by a detailed explanation of each edit proposed.

Current first paragraph:
''Between 2002 and 2005, Epstein invested $80million in the D.B. Zwirn Special Opportunities hedge fund. In November 2006, Epstein, while under federal investigation for sex crimes, attempted to redeem his investment after he was informed of accounting irregularities in the fund. By this time, his investment had grown to $140million. Zwirn refused to redeem the investment. Zwirn worried that Epstein’s redemption could cause a “run on the bank” at the hedge fund. It is unknown how much Epstein personally lost when the fund was wound down in 2008. ''

Proposed first paragraph:
(A detailed explanation of the reason for each proposed edit follows, below.)

''Between 2002 and 2005, Epstein invested $80million in the D.B. Zwirn Special Opportunities Fund, a hedge fund that invested in illiquid debt securities. In November 2006, Epstein attempted to redeem his investment after he was informed of accounting irregularities in the fund. By this time, his investment had grown to $140million. The D.B. Zwirn fund refused to redeem the investment. It is common for hedge funds that invest in illiquid securities to have years-long “lockups” on their capital for all investors and to additionally require redemption requests to be made in writing 60 to 90 days in advance. The fund was closed in 2008, and its remaining assets of approximately $2billion, including Epstein’s investment, were transferred to Fortress Investment Group when that firm bought the assets in 2009. Epstein later went to arbitration with Fortress over his redemption attempt. The outcome of that arbitration is not publicly known. ''

Current language:
''Between 2002 and 2005, Epstein invested $80million in the D.B. Zwirn Special Opportunities hedge fund. ''

Nature of proposed changes and rationale:

 * Provide full name of hedge fund, as cited in existing source, for accuracy.
 * Add the type of the fund (what sort of investments it made) as cited in existing source. The type of fund is relevant to understanding a key subsequent point in the section, the reason that the fund company refused to redeem Epstein’s investment when Epstein requested it (because it was an illiquid portfolio subject to contractual lockups).
 * Add source (MarketWatch article) for specific description of the hedge fund assets as “illiquid.”
 * Update the source New York article headline to the current version, and note that the source article was updated by the publisher on 1/14/22, archived on 1/19/22, and retrieved on 1/22/22.

Proposed language:
''Between 2002 and 2005, Epstein invested $80million in the D.B. Zwirn Special Opportunities Fund, a hedge fund that invested in illiquid debt securities. ''

Current language:
''In November 2006, Epstein, while under federal investigation for sex crimes, attempted to redeem his investment after he was informed of accounting irregularities in the fund. ''

Nature of proposed changes and rationale:

 * Remove the statement that Epstein was under federal investigation for sex crimes when he attempted to redeem his investment from the D.B. Zwirn hedge fund, because the sex crimes investigation is not relevant to and does not add understanding of this section’s topic, Epstein’s hedge fund investing; in contrast, including the sex crimes investigation in this spot risks being seen as way of implying that the sex crimes investigation and the hedge fund redemption request were somehow related, when they are in no way shown to be. The federal sex crimes investigation is well-covered in the subsequent section, “Legal proceedings.”
 * Remove current source citations Brown, Julie K. (November 28, 2018) and Boboltz, Sara (July 11, 2019) from this passage, as they pertain to sex crimes investigations, covered in other sections, not to Epstein’s investing, the topic of this section.

Proposed language:
''In November 2006, Epstein attempted to redeem his investment after he was informed of accounting irregularities in the fund. ''

Current language:
''By this time, his investment had grown to $140million. Zwirn refused to redeem the investment. ''

Nature of proposed changes and rationale:

 * Change “Zwirn” to “The D.B. Zwirn fund” for accuracy and clarity. In practice, neither the fund, nor the hedge fund company, are typically referred to as simply “Zwirn.” (If the original intent was to have “Zwirn” refer to Daniel Zwirn, the founder of the hedge fund company, then Daniel Zwirn would need to be introduced in this section, but that doesn’t seem needed for completeness or accuracy.)
 * Update the source New York article headline to the current version, and note that the source article was updated by the publisher on 1/14/22, archived on 1/19/22, and retrieved on 1/22/22.

Proposed language:
''By this time, his investment had grown to $140million. The D.B. Zwirn fund refused to redeem the investment. ''

Current language:
''Zwirn worried that Epstein’s redemption could cause a “run on the bank” at the hedge fund. ''

Nature of proposed changes and rationale:

 * Replace an assertion about someone’s state of mind based on hearsay—“Zwirn worried that Epstein’s redemption could cause a ‘run on the bank’ at the hedge fund”—with a fact-based reason that the D.B. Zwirn fund refused to redeem Epstein’s investment. The current language seems meant to refer to Daniel Zwirn, who as noted above has not been introduced in this Wikipedia article, but more important for the accuracy of the section, the statement about what Daniel Zwirn was worried about is hearsay attributed in the source material to a close friend of Epstein’s, who was at the time an adversary of Zwirn over the redemption request. Conveying this hearsay as fact is not supportable, and conveying it as hearsay would require, for support, explaining who made the assertion about Zwirn’s state of mind and the relationship between this person and Epstein. But none of the above is necessary, as trying to deduce Zwirn’s state of mind is not needed. There was a legal reason for the hedge fund’s refusal to make the redemption, as cited within the source material: contractual “lock-up” provisions within the terms of the investment contract. This information from the source article is the basis for the proposed sentence, “It is common for hedge funds that invest in illiquid securities to have years-long “lockups” on their capital for all investors and to additionally require redemption requests to be made in writing 60 to 90 days in advance.”
 * Update the source New York article headline to the current version, and note that the source article was updated by the publisher on 1/14/22, archived on 1/19/22, and retrieved on 1/22/22.

Proposed language:
''It is common for hedge funds that invest in illiquid securities to have years-long “lockups” on their capital for all investors and to additionally require redemption requests to be made in writing 60 to 90 days in advance. ''

Current language:
''It is unknown how much Epstein personally lost when the fund was wound down in 2008. ''

Nature of proposed changes and rationale:

 * Replace the sentence, “It is unknown how much Epstein personally lost when the fund was wound down in 2008 ” with a more specific and accurate account of the outcome of the investment, because the idea that Epstein lost money when the fund was wound down is not supported by the source material (nor by other known credible, potential source material). A reading of both the original and the updated source article shows that all assertions that Epstein lost money in the D.B. Zwirn fund have been removed from the source article. And while it’s true, on a purely technical level, that one could say it is “unknown how much Epstein lost” because the amount he lost could have been zero—meaning, no loss at all—it is nonetheless language that strongly suggests that he lost money. In contrast, source material states that Epstein’s investment had grown substantially in value, from $80 million to $140 million, at the time the hedge fund ran into regulatory trouble; that management of the assets was then taken over by another investment firm (Fortress Investment Group) when the D.B. Zwirn fund shut down; that Epstein’s request to immediately redeem his investment then went to arbitration; and that the results of that arbitration are unknown.
 * Insert as replacement language, “The fund was closed in 2008, and its remaining assets of approximately $2 billion, which included Epstein’s investment, were transferred to Fortress Investment Group when that firm bought the assets in 2009. Epstein later went to arbitration with Fortress over his redemption attempt. The outcome of that arbitration is not publicly known. ” This proposed language retains the existing information that the D.B. Zwirn hedge fund was closed in 2008, conveys information from a highly credible source (MarketWatch/Dow Jones) about the disposition of Epstein’s investment in the fund, and avoids implying that Epstein ultimately either lost or gained money when his redemption request was resolved, as neither outcome is supported by source material.
 * Update the source New York article headline to the current version, and note that the source article was updated by the publisher on 1/14/22, archived on 1/19/22, and retrieved on 1/22/22.

Proposed language:
''The fund was closed in 2008, and its remaining assets of approximately $2billion, including Epstein’s investment, were transferred to Fortress Investment Group when that firm bought the assets in 2009. Epstein later went to arbitration with Fortress over his redemption attempt. The outcome of that arbitration is not publicly known. ''

Amonlaw (talk) 15:55, 22 March 2022 (UTC)


 * I was asked on my talk page to review this, and introduced the changes with some slight copyediting.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 13:39, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Modern Cameras do not have "footage"
"One week after having signed his final will; it had been reported that at least one camera in the hallway outside Epstein's cell had footage that was unusable".

I could have let it go, but for the hotlink in the Article talking about the "footage" from old-school film cameras. Modern cameras record data, and I very much doubt the prison had old-style film that required being developed, etc... Yes, I know it's a euphemism, but these little details in an Article about a highly controversial figure and death can either lend legitimacy or breed distrust. It's probably a direct quote from a source, so I don't want to mess with it, but it's an issue that needs to be fixed, IMO.107.195.106.201 (talk) 22:21, 16 April 2022 (UTC)


 * The word footage appears several times in the article and in some of the sources. I agree, though, that CCTV produced by a video camera does not have footage as it is not film. Yet somehow this phrase has stuck, eg here where the British government says that you can "request CCTV footage of yourself". News stories often use this phrase. Somehow we seem to be stuck with it.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 07:02, 17 April 2022 (UTC)


 * I've removed the hyperlink to footage to address some of the concerns here. It's probably an unnecessary hyperlink anyway. Iamreallygoodatcheckers (talk) 07:15, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Modern cameras do have footage. Everyone uses this word. The dictionary def is recorded video material, does not have to be physical tape.Maria Gemmi (talk) 09:40, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Separate article for the sexual abuse scandal?
Per Jimmy Savile sexual abuse scandal, should we have a separate article for the abuse scandal surrounding Jeffrey Epstein? --92.22.212.168 (talk) 08:45, 11 May 2022 (UTC)


 * It's an interesting question. The main difference is that Savile was hugely famous in Britain for decades as a disc jockey and entertainer before the scandal that occurred after his death. Epstein's wiki article was created in August 2006 in response to the charges that he was facing in Florida at the time. He probably wouldn't have met WP:GNG before that. Savile's wiki article was created in September 2003 and says "He is best known for his BBC television show Jim'll Fix It where he made the wishes of children come true." How times change. Epstein was never a famous financier and did not hit the headlines in a big way until he was charged with solicitation of prostitution in 2006. Most of his notability is derived from the various sex abuse controversies that he was involved in. So I think that splitting off the sexual abuse into a separate article would leave this article looking rather thin and would make people ask why the allegations were not dealt with in detail here.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 08:58, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you for this response, I understand your points (Epstein wasn't that notable before the sexual abuse controversies), though think splitting off the sexual abuse could work for Rolf Harris and Gary Glitter. Like Savile, they both met WP:GNG before their respective abuse controversies (with both Harris and Glitter being well known entertainers for decades), and I think the Harris and Glitter sexual abuse controversies were considerably more notable than one sexual assault allegation against Joe Biden. --92.22.212.168 (talk) 15:29, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I definitely agree with you on the last two points; Rolf Harris and Gary Glitter were both very much notable before their abuse controversies, as was Savile. -- QueenofBithynia (talk) 10:30, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 May 2022
Suggest changing “parent complained about sexual abuse” to “parent reported sexual abuse.” Ivanfoster (talk) 20:05, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
 * ✅ This seems to be more neutral language. —QueenofBithynia (talk) 10:32, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Back to protected page
We are sure that this page doesn't need highly protection? I believe that it's truly important for every act he did 84.78.25.2 (talk) 07:47, 3 June 2022 (UTC)


 * The article is now unprotected after it was extended confirmed protected for twelve months in June 2021. Let's hope that the editing is sensible, or the protection will be back again.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 07:55, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Cause of Death
I note that the bio box contains "Alleged suicide by hanging" as the cause of death. Let us be very clear here; the OFFICIAL verdict of the New York City Medical Examiner was 'suicide'. That is not an allegation. The allegations are from the Epstein defence camp, which ALLEGE that a homicide occurred. - Really, really need to seriously think about changing that bio detail, because this looks like a glaring example of Wikipedia having an opinion on something which differs from the official version. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.69.27.50 (talk) 17:12, 28 June 2022 (UTC)


 * I think that the article needs pending changes to stop this type of edit from going out live.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 18:14, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I've added an inivisble note. There was similar disruption with people changing the infobox of Chinese paddlefish a while ago and adding the note seemed to fix it, so I am somewhat hopeful that it works. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:10, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Faith of Epstein's parents and himself.
Under the section early life it states "His parents Pauline (née Stolofsky, 1918–2004)[24] and Seymour G. Epstein (1916–1991) were Jewish and had married in 1952 shortly before his birth[25]." yet neither source 24 or 25 ever states that his parents are jewish.

In fact the only source of Epstein being jewish is source 195, which states: "his lawyers claim that Jeffery Epstein has a fake passport to hide his jewish name because "as an affluent member of the Jewish faith", he was in danger of being kidnapped while traveling abroad" which is hardly a credible source since he is expected to lie about such things to get out of charges no? Nikolaja12 (talk) 09:50, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Alan Dershowitz
Why is Alan Dershowitz mentioned in any way? He has not been accused or convicted of any wrongdoing? This is specious and sleazy gossipmongering. 65.88.88.200 (talk) 23:08, 25 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Why were you quick to mention Dershowitz' inclusion in particular? Seems a little strange. Not sure how it qualifies as "specious and sleazy gossipmongering" when it is clear that he was involved with Epstein just as much as the other world figures mentioned in this article. <span style="color: white; font-weight: bold; background: linear-gradient(blue, purple, pink)">That Coptic Guy 22:30, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

proposed change to Forbes archive link
I have no idea whether the archive link that I propose to change may have been the subject of a revert. Out of caution, I am therefore raising the question here as to whether there are any objections to the proposed change.

The link is for the Forbes article "Why Sex Offender Jeffrey Epstein Is Not A Billionaire".

The existing archive link is:
 * https://web.archive.org/web/20190710235203/https://www.forbes.com/sites/noahkirsch/2019/07/08/why-sex-offender-jeffrey-epstein-is-not-a-billionaire/

The proposed archive link is:
 * https://web.archive.org/web/20190712061402/https://www.forbes.com/sites/noahkirsch/2019/07/08/why-sex-offender-jeffrey-epstein-is-not-a-billionaire/amp/

The reason for the change is that with the existing link, the article text "disappears" shortly after being displayed. The proposed link does not seem to have this problem. I await the community's feedback. Fabrickator (talk) 01:21, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

should Steven Pinker really be implicated in Epstein’s defense?
From what I’ve read he offered his fellow Harvard colleague Dershowitz his expert opinion on the text of a law for free as a favor he had often done, not knowing what or who it was for. He has stated he regrets providing the letter. Seems the phrasing here lacks nuance and unfairly implicates Pinker as if he had knowingly participated in Epstein’s defense NaK-Pump (talk) 21:59, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Better quality image
I used an app named "Remini" to make the mugshot of the criminal, and published it to wikimedia commons, so i wanna know if there's any problem with adding it to the article.

Link: File:Epstein Final Mugshot (in better quality).jpg

Iyusi766 (talk) 16:44, 3 January 2023 (UTC)


 * The image is here. Personally though, I think that this looks like a version of the image with too much brightness, sharpness and some sort of artificial filter effect added. The effect is like looking at deepfake Tom Cruise, just a bit too good to be true. The original image, although not of great quality, is probably the best for identification purposes.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 18:32, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Funky grammar, avoid semicolon
"Epstein developed an elite social circle and procured many women and children; he and associates then sexually abused them."

would be better as

"Epstein developed an elite social circle and procured many women and children which he and his associates sexually abused."

Or something like that. The current version just reads badly. 2A01:598:91B1:ED1B:1:2:ECF4:DAD2 (talk) 15:23, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅. Good suggestion. Thanks. A. Randomdude0000 (talk) 15:35, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Little Black Book
I found numerous sources about this book that he owned in articles, and it seems to pass the notability test. It’s only mentioned on the article under external links though. Is that fine, or should someone add it? I feel like it’s important but since it’s not here already I had a feeling there might be a reason for it Helpingpeopleyay (talk) 22:30, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Core description of his
First phrase being "Eppstein was a sex offender and financier". Seriously? He was a financier in the first place but reducing someone to the bad things he did is highly dehumanizing and unethical. 2A02:8071:888:90A0:C100:58AF:9EA3:31AF (talk) 19:56, 24 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I'm 50-50 on this. Epstein was never well known as a financier, and did not hit the headlines until the sex abuse controversy of 2005–2006.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 20:41, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Epstein upbringing in Jewish community
Link about Epstein childhood https://forward.com/news/427614/jeffrey-epstein-childhood-brooklyn/?amp=1 49.184.180.43 (talk) 14:18, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 May 2023
Change “sex offender and financier” to “convicted human trafficker, sex offender and financier”. 2600:1013:B02A:8BD8:FDB3:22C2:FEDB:14AF (talk) 17:12, 4 May 2023 (UTC)


 * This would overload the opening sentence, it is fine as it is.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 17:53, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

"financier" - revisited
The more time passes the more sources come to the conclusion that there are no trails that Epstein ever was the "financier" he had promoted himself to have been and be regarded as such. Instead, newer sources seem to show the opposite - that Epstein never was the prominent financier but he tried to extort rich people to get financed by them. The opening sentence does not reflect that. Any ideas when would be the right time to reflect it in the article? BalancedIssues (talk) 11:04, 24 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Epstein was a very wealthy person indeed (clue: he had a private island and private jet). He was often described as a billionaire although he was only worth about half a billion in his estate. His opaque regulatory filings during his lifetime made it difficult to say exactly how wealthy he was, or how he was making his money. "Financier" broadly covers what Epstein did, and this Wall Street Journal article says that he "built a fortune of more than half a billion dollars leveraging unusually close relationships with a small group of rich and powerful individuals over four decades." It isn't NPOV to say that he extorted people.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 14:56, 24 May 2023 (UTC)


 * A wealthy person is not a "Financier". Instead sources have established that Epstein’s main business activities were all about young women and to come close to rich and powerful people, as well as producing and compiling evidence from those rich and powerful individuals that would enable him to blackmail those. Sources have also established that Epstein received unusually and unexplainable high amounts of money from rich and powerful individuals (like Leon Black paying him 158 mil.) and at the same time the paying persons trying to hide that they gave those amounts of money to Epstein and why they did so. The reported activities can explain a lot of business models Epstein was said to be executing (in hiding), but those are not “Financier” (The financial community found an absence of successful exits a “Financier” could or would have made to become billionaire (or half billionaire) and the community found an absence of counterparties Epstein made financial transactions with as he claimed to have done).
 * The question is what word would best characterize Epstein’s main profession/role in the first sentence (as it has become clear in the meantime that “Financier” was not his main interest or profession)--BalancedIssues (talk) 09:22, 26 May 2023 (UTC)


 * The interesting piece of recent news is Jeffrey Epstein allegedly tried to extort Bill Gates over extramarital affair, in which The Wall Street Journal claimed that Epstein "appeared to threaten Bill Gates and tried to blackmail the multi-billionaire over his extramarital affair with a Russian bridge player." This doesn't translate into saying that Epstein was not a financier, but it does cast a new light on one of his relationships. The article does not currently mention this, maybe it should.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 10:39, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Obviously, neither does wealth accumulation transform a person into a “Financier” (as main profession/role), nor are shady business models a proof that one cannot also be a “Financier” in the main job. Therefore, I didn’t say or imply those things.

Maybe in the first sentence one should be so honest to just say that Epstein’s main profession/role and how he became rich can only bew suspected instead of claiming/implying that Epstein’s main profession/role was “Financier” (by defining him so in the first sentence).

Known is that Epstein secretly received about 160 mil from Leon Black, that he secretly misappropriated around 50 mil from the Wexner foundation according to Leslie Wexner, and that customers of Towers Financial Corporation lost 460 mil in a Ponzi scheme that Epstein's business partner Hoffenberg said was the making of Epstein. So more than half a billion vanished secretly from Epstein's business partners in direct connection to Epstein, and Epstein secretly accumulated funds of half a billion. And sources say that the finance community is even sure in the meantime that Epstein earned about nothing as a “Financier” not even being known in the finance community.

Additionally, I can add the extortion stuff to the article.--BalancedIssues (talk) 08:03, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Cause of death
The official cause of death is suicide by hanging, but this is widely disputed, even by official sources. To indicate this, I feel the cause of death given in the page summary should be listed as "Suicide by hanging (disputed)". 148.252.128.105 (talk) 00:19, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Not in the infobox. As the HTML note says, two requests for comment were against this.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 07:13, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
 * That thee has been discussions in the past doesn't mean things can not have changed today. The infobox should reflect the article text, and either state the cause of death as the official ruling and/or that it is disputed as to not mislead the reader. BP OMowe (talk) 13:50, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Pinhole cameras
The 'Video recordings' section of the article says that 'pinhole cameras' were found in Epstein's Palm Beach residence and that he had people monitoring pinhole cameras in his New York mansion. I doubt that that they were pinhole cameras. The reference cited regarding the Palm Beach residence does not specify that they were pinhole cameras, so perhaps that's reason enough to remove that specification of the cameras there. The reference cited regarding his New York mansion does say 'pinhole cameras' but I wonder whether that reference may have it wrong, though: pinhole cameras are quite primitive and unusual cameras (apparently modern digital ones exist, but I doubt that that would be a reasonable way to go when you have people monitoring live footage from them). I wonder whether people (who wrote that New York City reference, and who wrote that part of the Wikipedia article) may confuse pinhole cameras (primitive cameras with a specific type of light opening) for cameras that record through small holes as to conceal the camera? ReflectorDiskJockey (talk) 11:45, 3 August 2023 (UTC)


 * ✅: The source says "Hidden cameras were found in the garage area and inside a clock on Epstein’s desk." It doesn't go into detail, but presumably they were small and well hidden from a casual observer.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 15:17, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

When did the crimes occur?
I can't find the answer to a basic question: when did the alleged crimes happen? The lead section could summarize the most important aspect of his biography, per WP:LEAD. It might say, e.g.
 * Jeffrey Epstein allegedly engaged in sex-trafficking over a 20 year period, between 1986 and 2006.

The dates are hypothetical, because I don't know. Anyone know? -- Green  C  18:57, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Possible Development
There's supposed to be a development soon according to Judge Loretta Preska. Depending on the amount of information that will be revealed, how should we fit it into this article?

https://apnews.com/article/jeffrey-epstein-ghislaine-maxwell-virginia-giuffre-3af500d4788ad45301be426628846d71 Cahlin29 (talk) 21:03, 3 January 2024 (UTC)


 * I think it's best to wait until the documents are released. As the AP story points out, they are unlikely to contain much that we don't know already, despite receiving a good deal of hype.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 21:33, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Relationship to Mossad/Intelligence
Shouldn't Epstein's possible connection to secret services/Mossad at least be mentioned. Numerous sources have reported on this.
 * https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-writer-who-broke-epstein-case-a-rumored-mossad-link-is-worth-digging-into/
 * https://www.newsweek.com/prince-andrew-virginia-giuffre-jeffrey-epstein-spy-theory-1832295
 * https://7news.com.au/the-morning-show/jeffrey-epstein-was-a-mossad-spy-says-investigative-journalist-dylan-howard-c-595812
 * https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/jeffrey-epstein-steven-hoffenberg-intelligence-agencies-spy-1197708/

This is probably more than just a vague rumour. Former US Attorney General Alexander Acosta is quoted here: "Epstein [|Epstein belonged to intelligence]".--Afus199620 (talk) 19:02, 4 January 2024 (UTC)