Talk:Jehovah's Witnesses splinter groups/Archive 1

First comments
I'm not very happy with the title of this page, but couldn't find a better one.

I'd like to get the dates on which these groups split (or formed), and the (most important) reasons.

I'm not *sure* about the 1942 date (got it here, but I remember seeing it before elsewhere), Doctrines of Jehovah's Witnesses puts it in 1930. Anyway, this demands some research, on each of these groups. Are there more ? Are some of these groups really branches of one same group ? (probably)

Links to these groups's websites (for those that have one) would be useful too). Flammifer 13:29, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Relation to changes of name
I have added three more groups: Lord's Witnesses, Servants of Yah and The Hermetic Order of Bethelites Whoever removed them first, please don't, because you're damaging the completeness of this article. Thanks

Probably worth mentioning somewhere (maybe on the WBTS page ?) :


 * The group began as a small Bible study led by Charles Taze Russell in 1872. Zion’s Watch Tower Tract Society was started in 1884 by Russell and his followers. Several books and other resources by Russell were published by this group, and the teachings in them, along with those of Russell’s successor J. F. Rutherford, serve as the foundation for the cult’s beliefs. In 1931, the group adopted the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society as its name to distinguish itself from splinter groups.

Flammifer 13:33, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

This Darwin Award Nominee ("confirmed true" they say ...) says :


 * (27 October 2000, Illinois) A splinter group of Jehovah's Witnesses that tests their faith by standing in traffic, lost one of their members when she was struck by a vehicle on Interstate 55 while professing her beliefs to the passing motorists.

Draws an interesting response :


 * "I want to state for the record that there are no splinter groups of Jehovah's Witnesses. To use the name of a major organization in this way is very irresponsible."

... interesting. I suspect both JWs and members of splinter groups may object to this page ... but does anybody have a better idea ? Russellites wouldn't speak to anybody today, and Bible Students seems too specific. Hmm. Flammifer 14:14, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Church of God ?
I haven't found much evidence that "Church of God, Faith of Abraham" has anything to do with the JW.

However, looks like they're also unitarians. Hmm. Eventually, we'd need to take out "uncomfirmed" links - that list is a good starting place, but needs to be verified. Flammifer 14:46, 5 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Hmm. Maybe it's in fact part of the Worldwide Church of God. Flammifer 12:00, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

As for the "eagle Society", the "Hirsho-Kittenger Movement", the "Olson Movement", I haven't found much pointing to their existence apart from various copies of this same list. Ditto for the "Ritchie Movement", the "Standfast Movement" and the "Sturgeon Movement", which actually makes our list quite short :-P Flammifer 14:58, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Are these all "Bible Students" or not ?
I find it hard to quaklify what "Bible Students" are :-P

This page lists a lot of stuff under Authors Associated With The Bible Students Movement (Which can possibly be used for this article).

It seems to me that the Bible Student Movement is kinda an attempt to regroup various people that left the JWs, especially in their early days, before they were called JWs. But the world "Bible Students" can be applied to a lot of things, even JWs ... Flammifer 15:09, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Two good lists

 * http://www.heraldmag.org/2004_history/04history_7.htm
 * http://www.biblestudents.net/history/daughters_tower.htm

... problem is, those pages contain a lot of the same information. It looks like one is copied from the other, or both come from the same source. Anyway, I've started integrating that info into the text, though it could probably take double checking. Which of those two links would be the best to include as reference ?

It should be noted that some of those groups seperated before russell's death, and some seperated after the JWs changed their name. Flammifer 15:49, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Ah, interesting info, from the second link :


 * There was a time, when such associations as the Dawn, the PBI and the LHMM, had their own congregations affiliated with them, much like the Watchtower Society does with the Jehovah's Witnesses. Today the only group to have their own congregations is the LHMM. The Dawn and the PBI act mainly as publishing houses. Their journals are read by both Bible Students and non-Bible Students. Despite their differences, the Bible Students, often pull their resources together and to make a unified witness

Hmm, so only the Layman's Home Missionary Movement has actual followers ? worth knowing. That's a problem with this page's title : "group" can be a congregation as well as simply a publishing house. However, the fact that they *used* to have congregations is still significant, since this article is mainly about history. Flammifer 15:54, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

'nuther link :)

 * http://pages.globetrotter.net/mleblank/wt/wtfm.html has interesting stuff :)

Some stuff on masonry, and a list of Bible students and assorted groups, to be compared with the one we're building here.

German Bible Students ?
(yeah, yeah, I'm mostly talking to myself, I know ^-^)

The Bible Students Online page says :


 * They currently publish the monthly "Herald of Christ's Kingdom". In the 1930s they published the monthly "Der Pilgrim" which was suspended when Hitler took power. They then published "the Burning Lamp". This group was still associated with the Watchtower, contact had been lost during the 1st and 2nd World War, when contact was finally made and Watchtower Literature was allowed into Germany, the Bible Students noticed the changes, and decided they were better off without the Society. They began publishing "the Christian Watchtower" in 1949 and 'The Tagesanbruch". As well as numerous books and booklets, and Russell writings were translated in the German language.

Now, this is interesting. It may roughly mean that yes, the German JWs were persecuted by Hitler, but also that as soon as it was over, they broke off from the international JWs when they discovered how their doctrines had drifted apart. However, I'd take this with a grain of salt - it isn't exactly published on a neutral website, and it says nothing of whether some German JWs stuck to the "party line" from the US and didn't split. I'd guess the German bible Student Association split, but I don't know how prominent they were. Maybe they were the main JW body in germany at that time (seems believable, I read somewhere the european JWs used the name "BIble Students" more prominently and later than US ones, and still called themselves by that name in Nazi times), maybe they were one of a miriad associations but the only one that split. Some history on that could be useful.

(Also, that page has some stuff on the polich BS, and the groups left after the fall of comunism. Probably interesting stuff, but 1) may need more sources and 2) not as directly relevant)

Flammifer 17:34, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

citing in Later Changes
Most German Bibelforscher remained as Witnesses from my memory. I'd like to see research that the organization as a whole disassociated itself. I think it should more precisely indicate the percentage of membership of this organization. - CobaltBlueTony 16:01, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Huh?
It seems this was raised some time ago, however the lead still suggests that 'the German Bible Students' broke away from the Watchtower Society. This is either incorrect or requires significant clarification. Does the break-away group still exist? Did it rejoin the WTS to become the current 'Zeugen Jehovas', or was a separate new organization started? Did all members there defect, or only some?-- Jeffro 77 (talk) 03:39, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Change of name proposal
IMO, an article entitled Jehovah's Witnesses splinter groups should be an examination of the groups that split off from the JWs. Rather, it seems the article is starting to cover the schisms in the history of the group now known as Jehovah's Witnesses, which I think is a better way to cover it anyway.

Due to that, I think it probably should be renamed to Schisms among Jehovah's Witnesses (compare Schisms among the Jews). --K. AKA Konrad West TALK 06:57, 12 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Good idea. I was thinking about making a Bible Student Movement article to integrate some parts of this article, and of the Bible Students article. Maybe Schisms among the Bible Students ? In the meanwhile, I also think this page would be better as Chisms among the JWs. Flammifer 07:25, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

OK, I started the Bible Student Movement page, I think it may be better than this one. Quite a few of this page probably should be moved over there.

(In fact, in creating this page, I was hoping I would find more info on "latter" schisms, such as in 1942, or when people got pissed that the world didn't end and left the group. However, I've found no such info (any idea of who left in '42 ?), so this page is turning out less useful than I hoped. Maybe it should all be the "history" part of the Bible Student Movement. Keeping a page for the JW "schisms" or splinter groups may be a good idea; I'm not sure about schisms though, at least, since the JWs have that name I don't think it got divided into factions. Flammifer 13:59, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

OK, I moved some material over there, though not all. That should allow us to reduce the details on this page, for example not talking about a group's later history, only about why it left. Flammifer 14:22, 13 August 2005 (UTC)