Talk:Jelena Lazarević/Archive 1

Adulteress?
"A svijet je tada govorio da su se Sandalj i Jelena ljubili odavna, još dok je bio živ njezin muž Đurađ" [According to some rumors Sandalj and Jelena were inlove for long time, even while her husband Djuradj was still alive] link This is published in novel "Obitelj vojvode Hrvoja" [Family of Duke Hrvoje]. Are there any scholarly sources for such claim?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:36, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
 * "Петнаест година пре брака и пуне двадесет четири године у браку војвода Сандаљ је осећао неутољену страст према мени" [Fifteen years before marriage and full 24 years after we married duke Sandalj felt unsatisfied passion toward me] says another novel, "Gospođa moli za častan mir" written by Mira Milojković.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 00:34, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
 * There are sources that Sandalj Hranic attacked Zeta and captured Budva in 1386. After that event Balša II and Sandalj were enemies. In "Istorija srednjovekovne bosanske države" Sima Ćirković says that in that period Jelena in her court in Ulcinj prepared herself to go to Dubrovnik to meet Sandalj. (а у један мах се спремала Јелена, кНи кнеза Лазара и жена "Бур^ева, да из Улциња дсфе у Дубровник како би се састала са Сандаљем"
 * If she indeed met Sandalj in Dubrovnik in 1386 that corresponds with above text that he loved her 15 years before they were married in 1411. Are there any speculations about him being biological father of Balša III? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 00:52, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Није познато да ли се Сандаљ због ње раставио од прве жене. Али, чињеница је да се одмах по одласку Катарине оженио Јеленом. Има нешто недокучиво у односима војводе и Балшића удовице.... Сандаљ је вазда био пажљив и дарежљив према Јелени. (It is unknown if Sandalj divorced his wife because of Jelena. Still, its a fact that immediately after Katarina left he married Jelena. There is something mysterious in relations between duke and Balsa's widow) - says Momcilo Spremic--Antidiskriminator (talk) 01:19, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Translation of 'Blagovrjerna'
I was uncertain how to translate Serbian word 'Blagovjerna' to English language. If I am not wrong, it is a title in Eastern Orthodox Christianity which is given to people who are saints or to potential saints. According to Serbian-English theological dictionary it maybe can be translated as pious or devout. I left it as 'Blagovjerna' because I used GBS and noticed there are English sources who use word blagoverni so I guess it is not a mistake. Any thoughts.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:16, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Née Lazarević?
I am somewhat uneasy about the "née Lazarević" bit in the lead sentence. Was Lazarević not her patronymic rather than family name? The format implies that Lazarević was a surname she lost/renounced upon marriage, as if the subject of the article was a 20th/21st-century Serbian woman rather than someone who lived centuries before family names became standardized. Surtsicna (talk) 22:51, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Interesting observation. Many sources refer to her as "Jelena Lazarević", as if Lazarevic was her last name. Taking in consideration that Lazarević was a noble family, I believe that all of its female members would use Lazarevic as their family name until their marriage. Hereditary family names were not standardized in late medieval period, except in case of aristocracy, such as Jelena. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:50, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
 * References to "Jelena Lazarević" do not necessarily indicate that Lazarević was her family name. If I am not mistaken, the Lazarević dynasty ended with Lazar's children, so all female members of the dynasty would have borne the name Lazarević as patronymic anyway. Anastasia Nikolaevna is commonly referred to as such even though her family name was not Nikolaevna; similarly, Jóhanna Sigurðardóttir's family name is not Sigurðardóttir. The common name of Jelena's nephew/grandson-in-law, Stjepan Vukčić Kosača, includes all three parts: the given name, the patronymic and the family name. What I suggest is simply removing the "née" and leaving Lazarević as one of two alternative names.
 * You've also got me thinking about how common "Jelena Lazarević" might be. European noblewomen are normally referred to in English by their maiden names, or names that indicate the family into which they were born. South Slavic noblewomen, at least those hailing from Croatia and Bosnia, fall under this rule. Is Jelena an exception? Surtsicna (talk) 00:45, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your insightful comments. I don't object simply removing the "née" and leaving Lazarević as one of two alternative names.
 * Regarding the title of the article, I was aware that many different family names are used in her case in sources. Sr.wiki uses Jelena Lazarević Balšić Hranić while sh.wiki uses Jelena Balšić Hranić and bs.wiki uses Jelena Lazarević. I opted for Balšić because I found it most common in sources. That is not suprisingly because while she was Balšić she had most important historical role when she basically governed governing her estate and even waging a war. Such role was not common for medieval noble women. If you think that this article should be renamed, I am willing to hear your arguments which are better to be presented within separate discussion section, if you don't mind. All the best and thanks again.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:26, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Her significance to the Balšić family notwithstanding, I would think that the Lazarević name should be more prominent given that the family into which she was born by far outranked both families into which she married. Then there is the issue of her namesake granddaughter, another Jelena Balšić; I remember having to remove a link to Jelena Balšić because the woman mentioned was this Jelena's granddaughter. If "Jelena Balšić" is the most common form in English, however, that is important to consider. Surtsicna (talk) 10:48, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I remember that I searched trough the sources at time when I created this article and found out that Balsic had significant advantage. I now quickly searched GoogleBooks on English and found out that Balsic still has significant advantage. I don't mind going into more detailed analysis if you don't agree with current title. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:06, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
 * If you have the time, I would be very much interested in reading your analysis. I wonder how that compares to the women of Croatia and/or Bosnia, i.e. if there is a general disparity in this regard between the women of Serbia and Croatia/Bosnia. Surtsicna (talk) 23:17, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't have much time lately. Therfore I will start analysing this issue on my userpage and move it here after I am finished. If I forget about it or don't come back here until the end of August please feel free to remind me. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:56, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi . I began analyzing the issue on my userpage. Here is the link. I can't think any more arguments for Balšić vs Lazarević. I concluded that much more English language sources refer to her as Balšić, that awards are named Jelena Balšić, not Lazarević and that one literary work is titled Balšić, none Lazarević. What do you think?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:29, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the survey! The results are very intriguing. Many of the "Jelena Balšić" hits refer to this woman's granddaughter - and happen to originate from Croatia and Bosnia. Notably, John Van Antwerp Fine also refers to this Jelena's granddaughter when he mentions a "Jelena Balšić". Unfortunatly, I cannot work out under what name he lists the grandmother, but it is safe to assume he makes a distinction between the two women. The "Jelena Lazarević" hits are even more problematic. Among the notable historians who use "Jelena Lazarević" (and besides those you already named in your survey), I recognize bs:Pejo Ćošković. It is possible that Montenegrin (and perhaps Serbian?) sources want to emphasize Jelena's connection to the Balšić family, while Croatian and Bosnian authors' (which tend use "maiden names" anyway) have no such inclinations. Surtsicna (talk) 22:13, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Fine referred to her simply as Helen, as I wrote in the linked analysis. Sometimes he added (Jelena) in brackets, after Helen. Thanks for bringing this question here because I have just discovered that streets in several towns in Montenegro in Serbia are named against Jelena. All in Balšić version, as far as I can see. In Podgorica it is Ulica Jelene Balšić while in Bar there is a street Ulica kraljice Jelene Balšić, in Zemun it is Jelene Balšić, ... I also discovered there is a monument in Kruševac which name is reported to be a monument of Jelena Balšić (link). --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:54, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Fine probably attributes a last name to her in the index of the book, as he does with her granddaughter. A certain "Jelena Lazarević" is apparently mentioned here. There is no doubt she is popularly called Jelena Balšić in Serbia and Montenegro. Unfortunatly, that name causes some ambiguity problems, as her granddaughter is virtually never called Jelena Kosača (and even if she were, that would still be ambiguous since the Kosača name can also be attributed to the grandmother). I suppose we will have to make do and improvise when such situations arise. Surtsicna (talk) 11:45, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Very interesting. Both were Balšić and Kosača. If granddaughter was notable enough for her own article the ambiguity will be a problem. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:01, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
 * It has been problematic already. People see that Jelena Balšić results in a blue link, and just go for it. And that reminds me, I should probably see which articles currently link here. Surtsicna (talk) 21:07, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, there are (or were up to now) still articles that link to the wrong Jelena Balšić. I've fixed two. One in List of Bosnian consorts and one in Hersekzade Ahmed Pasha, where someone linked to both Jelena Balšić and Jelena Lazarević (thinking of different women). There might be more. Surtsicna (talk) 21:24, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Image
This image includes Jelena with dark hair holding a sceptre standing next to Milica. Maybe crop it and include it in the infobox?--Z oupan 00:14, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I think that the resolution is not good enough. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:11, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

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