Talk:Jerome Kern

Old comments
Biographic articles are by WIkipedia convention, given the name they are known by. In this case, that's "Jerome Kern" not "Jerome David Kern" - Nunh-huh 04:16, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

Is it "Showboat" or "Show Boat"? 12.207.80.153 23:58, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The title of the musical is "Show Boat". The word itself can be spelled both ways.Sluzzelin 08:04, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Appleographone(?)
I tried to verify the Appleographone claim but found nothing. (See Talk:Appleographone) Perhaps whoever created this article could give us more information? Sluzzelin 09:00, 15 August 2006 (UTC)Sluzzelin 08:43, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok, it's a hoax.Sluzzelin 11:06, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

List of Jerome Kern's songs
Partly with a view to reducing the future possible length of the article, and to providing a ready reference to his works, I have created a List of Jerome Kern songs. Please contribute.--Technopat (talk) 13:12, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Opening
Re: "His musical innovations, such as 4/4 dance rhythms and the employment of syncopation and jazz progressions, built on, rather than rejected, earlier musical theatre tradition."

This is a peculiar sentence. I think it might be broken in two because the examples of putative innovation don't all necessarily build on the earlier manner, even if they supplement it or alter it. Kern is usually considered a bridge, although Show Boat was clearly a harbinger with a curiously (considering its commercial success) delayed influence on the future of musicals. I'd rewrite the passage myself were I not puzzled by the list: "4/4 dance rhythms" in contradistinction to what? Non-dance rhythms? Waltzes and minuets? Or is it 4/4 in contradistinction to 2/2? Was Kern really the first to put syncopation on Broadway? If he wasn't, he might still have been in the vanguard, but that doesn't make his syncopation an "innovation". Presumbably "jazz progressions" means "jazz chord progressions", and if so, that's what should be said. But what precisely is a jazz chord progression, anyway? As far as I can tell, until the bebop period and except for blues, jazz harmony was taken straight from "common-practice-period" European Art Music harmony. TheScotch (talk) 08:01, 30 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm struggling a bit here. If you would be so kind as to suggest the wording you would prefer I think we might more easily grasp the point you are making. Tim riley (talk) 18:12, 30 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Reply to Scotch: The dance music in musical theatre from the late 19th century into the first decades of the 20th century (operetta and Edwardian musical comedy) had generally been in 3/4 time or 6/8 time. Kern embraced the newly popular dance styles of the early 20th century in his shows, whereas older composers, such as Lionel Monckton, failed to adapt.  Syncopation and jazz were also new to musical theatre.  The point being made in the sentence, which I think comes across clearly, is that although these things were new, Kern's use of them in his scores was not revolutionary, but evolutionary.  The source given is: Bordman, Gerald. "Jerome David Kern, Innovator/Traditionalist", The Musical Quarterly Volume 71, no. 4, April 1985, pp. 468-73. -- Ssilvers (talk) 13:45, 18 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Perhaps that first sentence or two, explaining the significance of using 4/4 dance rhythms, should be in the text?


 * I have a related point - this: "the first Broadway showtune with a basic jazz progression." is pretty meaningless to me. (I'm a jazz musician) That phrase does seem like bluffing, like it wasn't clear to the writer what it meant either. What does that mean? What is "a basic jazz progression"? Is the emphasis on "basic" or "jazz" or.. does it contain 2 or 4 jazzy bars, or is the whole tune the basic jazz progression? Which progression do they mean? What chords did showtunes have before that? (Assuming "progression" refers to the chord changes.) The chords seem mostly of the I - V7 - I kind (as in Mozart, Beethoven etc), with one prominent sustained jazzish 7th chord. The rhythm of the melody does seem surprisingly jazzy in places. 122.148.184.131 (talk) 00:27, 14 July 2020 (UTC)


 * It is in the text already, except we say "four beats to a bar" in the text. Again, we are repeating what Gerald Bordman wrote. I read it as saying that the whole tune uses Jazz chord progressions.  Basic, as in standard or simple.  Before that, showtunes used lilting waltz chords or more classical structures.  Take a look at Bordman, and see if you can summarize it better: Bordman, Gerald. "Jerome David Kern, Innovator/Traditionalist", The Musical Quarterly, Volume 71, no. 4, April 1985, pp. 468-73.  Of course, if you have a better source for musical analysis of Kern and, specifically, "The Magic Melody", We could cite that instead.  User:Tim riley, do you wish to comment? -- Ssilvers (talk) 09:34, 14 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Not at this point, but thank you for asking. I'll watch developments, if any, and chip in as seems wanted.  Tim riley  talk   10:31, 14 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Thanks Ssilvers, I thought it had the flavour of someone repeating without understanding. I looked it up and he says "One Kern song from Nobody Home has subsequently elicited some excited scholarly comment. Writing about it seven years later in the Atlantic Monthly, the musical historian Carl Engel suggested that "The Magic Melody" was the first time that Broadway playgoers listened to a basic jazz progression—I-IV7—in a show tune. Possibly someone may find an earlier example."


 * Notice he tells you which jazz progression he means, so it makes sense. This is Engel's article https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1922/08/jazz-a-musical-discussion/527883/. In section III he talks about Kern, it's too long to quote here. "A young man, gifted with musical talent and unusual courage, had dared to introduce into his tune a modulation which was nothing extraordinary in itself, but which marked a change, a new regime in American popular music. It was just the thing that the popular composer in the making had been warned against by the wise ones as a thing too “high-brow” for the public to accept." - You would assume nowadays that he would say "too low-brow"! Evidently the chord in question is the Bb7 under the words "syncopated melody" - about 1:00 into Billy Murray's 1915 version. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTkpHLR6H3E


 * "Its principal claim to immortality is that it introduces a modulation which, at the time it was first heard by the masses, seized their ears with the power of magic. And the masses, for once, showed excellent judgment. ...Mr. Kern subsequently proved to be one of the most fertile, tasteful, and characteristic composers of light music. When he tries to be purely melodic, he is apt to fall back upon cheap sentimentalism, tinged with spurious folk-song color. But his little harmonic device had a hue all its own; and popular parlance decided that it was “blue.” ... What stainless ears considered a rather weird turn of the melody, a morbid shifting of harmonies, entered the dictionary of professional jargon as “blue note,” or “blue chord.”


 * So.. it's the first jazzy chord on Broadway! What he's talking about is not so much a progression as a single chord – IV7 — which is Billy Murray's version sounds very jazzy indeed. You could call it a blues chord (it sounds like the blues – I IV7 I are the first 3 chords of the blues in many styles.), a bluesy chord, a jazz chord. I'm not sure which of these would be best. But any are infinitely better than ""the first Broadway showtune with a basic jazz progression." - which gives no idea what it's talking about. Maybe or "blues harmony". Maybe "blues-derived harmony" is best. (I liked "bluesy" but it sounds a lil informal.) "the first Broadway show tune using blues harmonies." Yeah that sounds good, I'll change it now. 122.148.184.131 (talk) 21:18, 28 March 2021 (UTC)


 * I didn't change it - can't work out how to change the reference, which should be to Engel's original article, not Bordman citing him. Engel's article is "Jazz: A Musical Discussion", The Atlantic, August 1922 https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1922/08/jazz-a-musical-discussion/527883/ Thanks. 122.148.184.131 (talk) 21:29, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Infobox
Is the infobox on this article actually serving any purpose? It appears to have Kern's birth and death date (which can be found on the first line of the lead section), and the non-important listing of his equally non-important spouse, which I don't think should be one of the first things the reader sees. --  Cassianto Talk   11:02, 18 August 2013 (UTC)


 * No. It contains only redundant information included elsewhere in the article, and the information it contains is not the most important information about Kern.  I'd like to hear from User:Tim riley before deleting, as he has done much work on this article.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 13:35, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I concur. Info-boxes can sometimes be useful: I am busying myself with Liberal and Conservative MPs of the 1880s at the moment, and a neat table summarising ministerial posts held is, to my mind, quite helpful. But the box here serves no discernible purpose at all IMO. I suggest we leave it a day or so to see if anyone demurs, and if not, blitz it. Tim riley (talk) 13:43, 18 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Oops. Before I read your last sentence, I removed it.  But if a different consensus emerges, we can always restore it.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:03, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. I doubt if the consequence will be acts of violence in Grosvenor Square. Tim riley (talk) 17:25, 18 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Bravo! Heartfelt rounds of applause all round! - SchroCat (talk) 22:19, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Ka-lu-a and Dardanella
I've read that there was a copyright infringement matter about a bar of music from "Dardanella" being used in "Ka-lu-a" (one of my favorite Kern songs)which established some sort of copyright precedent in the USA. Does anybody have the particulars? I've been trying to find out just what that important precedent was. 50.202.81.2 (talk) 05:03, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Ah, here it is. Fred Fisher, Inc. v. Dillingham 298F. 145 (S.D.N.Y. 1924)  Judge Learned Hand found that Kern had subconsciously copied the ostinato from "Dardanella" and awarded the plaintiffs $250.  50.202.81.2 (talk) 05:31, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

Great American Songbook article
There is a discussion at Talk:Great American Songbook as to how to deal with the uncited lists of songwriters, songs, and singers in that article. Please join the discussion if it interests you. Softlavender (talk) 03:20, 20 December 2018 (UTC)