Talk:Jesse L. Brown

Dates
Is there any reason the dates in this article are not written mm/dd/yyyy? It is about an American after all. Gaia Octavia Agrippa Talk 21:21, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
 * It's part of the manual of stile for WP:MILHIST. Dates in articles primarily dealing with military topics use DMY. — Ed! (talk) 12:50, 14 November 2012 (UTC)


 * I find this very annoying. Why is this mode arbitrarily correct? I guess it is in accord with military practice in discussing wars and battles, but a birthdate?? This is a bio, not a tactical treatise. Wikipedia becomes more British daily. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.82.131.179 (talk) 13:51, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * No, the U.S. military prefers DMY format as well. And that's an issue you'll want to take up at WP:MILHIST. — Ed! (talk) 14:21, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Interesting. I came here wondering the same. --MZMcBride (talk) 21:57, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Siblings names mixed up?
Did we get the name of his sister (listed as "Johnny") mixed up with that of one of his brothers (listed as "Lura")? Just a thought. Lilly (talk) 01:19, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Nope. I did a double take on that myself, actually. Multiple sources make it clear that Johnny was female, Lura was male. — Ed! (talk) 02:13, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Who was who's wingman?
Both the article for Jessie L. Brown and the article for Thomas J. Hudner, Jr. list the other man as the wingman. Jessie L. Brown article: "...and Lieutenant Junior Grade Thomas J. Hudner, Jr., who was Brown's wingman". Thomas J. Hudner, Jr article: "He rose to the rank of captain, and received the Medal of Honor for his actions in trying to save the life of his wingman, Ensign Jesse L. Brown, during the Battle of Chosin Reservoir in the Korean War".

I don't know much about aviator tradition but the wingman article says that the wingman is the plane that follows behind the leader. As one would have had to have been in front of the other I would take it one man would have been the other's wingman. Do the sources specify which was wingman? Wolfhound668 (talk) 13:25, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * They don't; only that the two were flying together that day, and that Hudner was replacing someone else. In all likelihood Brown was the lead, as he was more experienced, but I don't have sources confirming that directly. — Ed! (talk) 14:20, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Do you think it would make sense in Hudner's article to change from "wingman" to "squadron mate" since its unclear? Squadron mate is the term used in his MOH citation.  As an aside, I find it interesting that he's still alive and has a ship ordered that is to be named after him.  I was in the army so not too familar with Navy traditions but always assumed that sort of thing is posthumous. Would that be rare enough to add to his article? Wolfhound668 (talk) 14:40, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I think that would be fine. — Ed! (talk) 15:20, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Life magazine
i'm a newbie here, so forgive me if I'm doing this wrong: under military career: it says his photograph appeared in Life magazine, which I think is referenced to Taylor's book, where Taylor actually said "I also recall a picture of him in Life magazine" (page xii). http://books.google.com/books?id=r5H9RLUFQJoC&lpg=PP1&pg=PR12#v=onepage&q&f=false

I've been searching the Life archive on google books - and can't find any reference to the Brown photo - so I think he may have recalled wrong (perhaps Time?) but I'm still looking--- for what it's worth Gonne Yeats (talk) 17:31, 2 August 2013 (UTC).


 * There would be no reason not to edit it to say "Taylor recalls ..." if that's what the ref says. Pinkbeast (talk) 17:33, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

That's what bothers me It would be inappropriate to say Taylor's recall is perhaps apocryphal. I know the AP picked up the story (I have a reference in the October 22, 1948 New York Times), but the Life magazine photo I haven't found yet, so I guess the statement should stand as is- just because I can't find it, doesn't mean it isn't there. :) Gonne Yeats (talk) 03:36, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070207070755/http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/pers-us/uspers-b/j-brown.htm to http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/pers-us/uspers-b/j-brown.htm

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External links modified
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 * Added tag to http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/prs-tpic/af-amer/afa-ship.htm
 * Added archive https://archive.is/20130720125004/http://www.newstimes.com/news/world/article/Vet-returns-to-NKorea-for-1st-black-Navy-aviator-4674235.php to http://www.newstimes.com/news/world/article/Vet-returns-to-NKorea-for-1st-black-Navy-aviator-4674235.php
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Addition of second book by obvious COI account
Recent edits have added a book by Adam Makos. There is no cite to indicate the notability of this book and as such this doesn't seem to merit inclusion; the cite given serves merely to establish that it exists.

While this would be true whoever had added it, the account which did add it edits only to promote this book by Makos. Curiously it cropped up first to reinsert an edit by an IP which promoted the book by Makos in even more glowing terms.

Furthermore they have greatly changed the description of the first book (by an author who is notable), cherry-picking one sentence from a Publishers' Weekly review to class it as "speculative fiction", something not really justified by the cite which (for example) also says "Taylor based much of his research on interviews with those who knew Brown and on personal letters from more than a half-century ago". The previous description was a bit overblown but should be trimmed by someone who isn't here to sell books by Makos (which I have now done).

Absent any comments in favour of this inclusion by uninvolved editors, or the addition of solid cites indicating the notability of this book, I intend to seek a third opinion on the issue via the normal dispute resolution process. Pinkbeast (talk) 20:23, 21 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Each book has received more than one independent review (some rather unenthused, but still), so I have no problem with either. I'll add the reviews as refs. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:23, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

Whazzup, Pinkbeast?
? Clarityfiend (talk) 01:55, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I was wondering what you thought of the discussion immediately above about the inclusion of a second biography. I didn't want to state my opinion on your talk page where dissenting editors would not be able to see what I said to you, but here I'll say that I think it should be removed. Sorry I was a little vague. Pinkbeast (talk) 10:28, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

Oscar Holmes
I edited the first line of the article a few months ago, from Brown as the 'first African-American Naval Aviator,' to 'the first African-American aviator complete the US Navy's basic flight training program.' While it's clunkier wording, it is more historically precise. Today I added a specific line about this point of contention in the 'legacy' section, noting specifically that historian Robert J. Schneller has argued that LTJG Oscar Holmes preceded Brown. I also cited his online PDF article, originally published in Naval Aviation News in 1998. I believe that this sentence and reference is a necessary addition for the article, but am open to suggestions about its wording or placement (as well as the wording of the very-important first sentence of the article I previously edited). Thanks! Sbland.navyhistory (talk) 23:36, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

By the Way, it may be worth noting that my desire to have this addition inserted somewhere came from a recent, shall I say, hullabaloo. The Naval Historical Foundation sent a blurb on Jesse Brown a few months back, citing Brown as 'the first African-American Naval Aviator.' The Foundation's newsletter recipients are predominantly historians, and we received a deluge of complaints that we were not up to date on our history and that Holmes was now 'commonly' known in Naval aviation history as the actual first African-American Naval Aviator. I was shown the article by Schneller as proof, and as such have been meaning to clarify this wiki in that regard. TLDR: A bunch of Naval Historians were upset that this page was out of date on this one topic. Sbland.navyhistory (talk) 23:43, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Burial / Crash Site
Is it appropriate to add the location of his crash site, ( a precise Latititude and longitude - unrounded minutes, seconds not a necessity, if it is known and and has been released to the public by the DoD. I'd prefer a somewhat precise location as released by the DoD, not a generalized location of the Chosin Reservoir. Wfoj3 (talk) 23:47, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

Retrieval of remains
Does anyone know what happened to Mr. Brown's remains? Did Mr. Hudner return as the North Koreans suggested? The 2022 film Devotion states that after Thomas Hudner's death several organisations started to try to retrieve the remains. Does anyone know more and could add that here? Met-Haus-Allee-M (talk) 18:04, 17 August 2023 (UTC)