Talk:Jessica Nabongo/Archive 1

Spotts: Passing Through
IMDB lists "Passing Through" as being released 1989. I can't find any other traces of this movie online. Does anyone have more info on this documentary?

Can someone explain to me how if Spotts completed her title of "first ..." in 2018, that a documentary of her is released supposedly in 1989? Is IMDB considered a credible source? Isn't it also crowd-sourced info?--K.Nevelsteen (talk) 11:03, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Per, In 1979, she agreed to participate in a documentary that visited every country. This ambitious project titled "Passing Through" was handled by the late journalist, author and screenwriter Nolan Davis, who passed away before the project could be completed or released. And nope, imdb is not a reliable source. Schazjmd   (talk)  14:43, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks.--K.Nevelsteen (talk) 21:55, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
 * It took 40 years. https://travelerscenturyclub.org/archives/6469 W. Steinmeier (talk) 03:56, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Nomination of Jessica Nabongo for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Jessica Nabongo is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Jessica Nabongo until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished. K.Nevelsteen (talk) 20:36, 23 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Yes, I agree. It was a publicity stunt. Another woman already visited every country and continent. There's a documentary about it. Nabongo's claim is factually incorrect and it tramples on another person. Woni Spotts was inducted into the explorer section of a Los Angeles museum on February 25th. W. Steinmeier (talk) 22:11, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Have any links to the documentary and the museam?--K.Nevelsteen (talk) 10:06, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
 * https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4957430/?ref_=fn_al_tt_9 W. Steinmeier (talk) 00:04, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

the second Black woman to have travelled to every country in the world
The statement "the second Black woman to have travelled to every country in the world" is some authors own research. There is not reputable source stating that Jessica Nabongo is the second, so the text can not state this. K.Nevelsteen (talk) 07:49, 15 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Woni Spotts is the first Black woman to travel to every country and continent. Jessica Nabongo never visited Syria. Please stop vandalizing the page over and over. Woni Spotts is unable to have a page because of the vandalism. Universalsunset (talk) 22:07, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Calling my edits vandalism is quite insulting. Please provide references to back up your claims. I'm sorry, that you are disappointed that Spotts doesn't have an article, but this article is about Nabongo. Nabongo's book states that she visited all 193 UN countries +2 nonmember (an edit of mine you reverted). Her book also states she visited a part of Syria recognized by the UN. Whether those claims are true or not is not for Wikipedians to decide, but editors need to provide reputable sources for statements made in this article.--K.Nevelsteen (talk) 20:13, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Golan Heights is Israel according to the USA and encyclopedias.
 * https://www.britannica.com/place/Golan-Heights
 * Guinness Book is not a reliable source. UN is political and she worked for them. Universalsunset (talk) 13:47, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I looked up Guinness and WP and it seems that Guinness is not reliable for Notability, but I'm not sure if it is not notable as a source in general. It might be worth double checking with someone more knowledgeable about WP policy.--K.Nevelsteen (talk) 19:51, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * It's an iffy source. There are concerns about paid contributions. I personally wouldn't use it. Rule of thumb for me: if no reliable source is talking about it, content based on an iffy source probably is not noteworthy for inclusion. This is particularly true for any content that is contentious. If Guinness was mentioning something completely uncontentious, I'd still be wondering: Why is no one else mentioning this? Valereee (talk) 18:34, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

trivia in lead
@Universalsunset, Travelers Award Club is self-reported, and in the lead of an article about someone else is trivia anyway. We can't use it. I feel like you're maybe so passionate about this article that it's basically a COI. You should consider discussing changes before you make them. Valereee (talk) 14:27, 3 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Nomad Mania is self-reported and you allowed that with no issues. I sense bias, again. You are allowing Nabongo's proof and removing Spotts' proof. Why is that? Universalsunset (talk) 14:56, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Please leave this wording. It's fair and factual.


 * In 2019 Nabongo claimed to be the first Black woman of African descent to have documented visits to every country in the world,[2] a claim that is disputed by another African-American woman, Woni Spotts, who claimed to have done so in 2018.[1] Tori Omega Arthur, writing in the journal Social Media + Society, says that recent research since has indicated Spotts was indeed the first Black woman to complete visits to all countries.[3] Universalsunset (talk) 15:04, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I wrote that paragraph you're calling fair and factual. Me. Musikbot did not write it. Musikbot is a robotic editor that came in to add a template.
 * Nomad Mania, according to the source, is the gold standard; they do random spot checks, while Travelers Award Club is solely on an honor system. But again, in an article about Jessica Nabongo, it's trivia for the lead. I've been writing Woni Spotts and I'm not even going to put it there, because it's completely self-reported. And please stop accusing people of bias. Valereee (talk) 15:45, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, I edited my comment. Let's see if the page can be stable. Nomad Mania is an honor program as well, not the gold standard. They give a quiz on ten countries. They don't check your passport stamps. Please update the Nomad Mania reference. https://www.metrotimes.com/arts/detroiter-jessica-nabongo-is-on-track-to-become-the-first-black-woman-to-travel-to-all-195-countries-21701235 Universalsunset (talk) 16:12, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * If it doesn't become stable there are likely to be blocks for disruptive editing or edit-warring. Valereee (talk) 16:31, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Does Woni Spotts and her claim have to be mentioned in both the lead and in Visiting Countries? redundant.--K.Nevelsteen (talk) 19:50, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't think there's any way to mention the claim in the lead without mentioning Spotts. It's probably the most important thing in the article, too, so why wouldn't we want to mention it in the lead? Literally the reason she became famous is that she has asserted this claim, and it turns out not to be true. I'm not sure we can leave it out of the lead. Valereee (talk) 19:52, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Hey, @K.Nevelsteen we can't really source to Nabongo's book that the Golan Heights is recognized as part of Syria by the UN or that Kosovo isn't mentioned in the book. Someone else has to be saying those things. Valereee (talk) 20:18, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Golan Heights is Israel. https://www.britannica.com/place/Golan-Heights
 * https://www.outsideonline.com/adventure-travel/news-analysis/jessica-nabongo-first-black-woman-visit-every-country/ Universalsunset (talk) 20:29, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The Syrians apparently disagree. Look, Universalsunset, if your goal here is to deny that she's been credited with visiting every country in the world because of this, you're fighting a losing game. We go by what the sources say, and the sources literally all say she's visited every country in the world. Just drop that stick. It really isn't going to happen. Valereee (talk) 20:45, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I understand that it's the coverage that's important not the facts. It hurts but I understand. I was trying to provide facts. The Syrians refused her a visa or entry. The area is Israel. She got the wide coverage by having a misleading Wiki page saying she was first. She smothered Woni Spotts out by manipulating Wiki protocols. When I saw some honest editors, I got excited.:) I just want the page to be accurate in light of the inaccuracies for years. Thanks Universalsunset (talk) 21:16, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * @Universalsunset, can you show me the evidence that the article subject "smothered Woni Spotts out by manipulating Wiki protocols"? I haven't seen that. It's not actually relevant to what is included in this article, but it's relevant in other ways. Valereee (talk) 00:52, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Woni Spotts [@wonispotts]. (2019, October 10) Woni Spotts HACKED! https://www.instagram.com/p/B3dJjCtFSUH/ Universalsunset (talk) 00:56, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, that proves that Spotts believes her rival is behind the issues with the first creation of that article. But it could just be fans working on Nabongo's behalf. So again, not relevant here, but there's an awful lot that's troubling in that. Valereee (talk) 11:05, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
 * They said there's another scholarly article coming out about it in a month. https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/5098676260 Universalsunset (talk) 00:59, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't see anything that review or the comments that says there are more articles coming out? Which BTW looks like a paid review. Even managed to get a dig in at Nabongo lol...that must have been part the contract. Valereee (talk) 11:09, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
 * You are correct it was not Nabongo, personally. The Wikipedia vandalism was traced to a paid intern. The book review mentions cyberbullying. There is an article coming out. I'll post it later. Universalsunset (talk) 18:40, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I thought that it would be good to mention as part of Nabongo's thought process during her travels. You can strike it.--K.Nevelsteen (talk) 20:40, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * If you find someone else talking about those things, we can include. The things we're including sourced to the book are noncontroversial facts: she got a passport at age 4 or 5, decided to pursue this goal in 2016, etc. Those are safe to source to a self-source. Valereee (talk) 20:46, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * In fact, if you have the book, and there's a section about her early life/education, we could source the undergraduate degree to it. It's not available in Google Books in preview. Valereee (talk) 21:09, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I've added citations from the book to various parts of the text. Let me know if there is some other part of the text you want me to try and look up. I didn't find her degree or her position at the UN at first glance, since it might be further into the book. I might check again later, if I have time.--K.Nevelsteen (talk) 05:42, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The book states that in 2008 she did not have social media, but I can't add to that call for one better reference tag.--K.Nevelsteen (talk) 07:17, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh, I'm sorry, and re: redundancy...the lead is supposed to be a summary of the most important things in the article. No lead section should be saying something that isn't in the rest of the article. It's not considered redundant; it's to allow readers to quickly get the main gist. (Not that it always happens, but that's the goal, and that's what you'll see in the best articles.) Valereee (talk) 20:55, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * There's an explanation at MOS:LEAD. Valereee (talk) 20:58, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Aye! =)--K.Nevelsteen (talk) 05:25, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

How many countries?
In her book Nabongo (at the time of writing) states 195 countries and 10 states. Might be good to clarify what is considered the "entire world" from the perspective of 2019. K.Nevelsteen (talk) 05:45, 4 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Since that seems to be a bone of contention between the two women, I think we need to be extremely careful what we say in WikiVoice. Valereee (talk) 11:10, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Isn't there a consensus on what the "entire world" means? Maybe not. One metric is what the UN recognizes, but for Kosovo, it is only part of the UN that recognizes Kosovo. Are there other metrics. Explaining the different metrics would be a good WP article in itself :P --K.Nevelsteen (talk) 05:15, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Probably List of sovereign states, List of countries by the United Nations geoscheme, List of states with limited recognition, Member states of the United Nations, List of former sovereign states, take your pick. It's (obviously) too complex a topic to discuss here, but we could link within the current text if there's an appropriate place. What we shouldn't try to do is shoehorn in something we can use to link. Now, if someone in a RS started to discuss the difference between the list Nabongo was using vs. the one Spotts was using, we could mention it. But Nabongo saying it doesn't rise to the level we need. Valereee (talk) 12:24, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

public announcement
It should be noted that Nabongo states in her 2022 book that she publicly announced her intentions of becoming the first black woman to travel the world, via a posted video, just before April 2018. This can be corroborated by CNN and Forbes: K.Nevelsteen (talk) 12:50, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
 * https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexandratalty/2018/04/10/how-jessica-nabongo-will-become-the-first-black-woman-to-visit-every-country/?sh=5e6ce9146812
 * https://edition.cnn.com/videos/travel-play/2018/04/25/jessica-nabongo.cnn


 * Nabongo never visited Syria. Golan Heights is not Syria. She used Guinesses' opinion which is ironic because Wikipedia specifically listed Guinness as not credible. Universalsunset (talk) 22:35, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Nabongo is not in a position to dispute Spotts since Nabongo has not visited every country. She's been allowed to vandalize Spotts' site as stated by the company that established Spotts' Wikipedia page. Universalsunset (talk) 22:38, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not the place to dispute the validity of claims. On Wikipedia, reverting someone's edits is against the Wikipedia good faith policy. You basically undid my work. Both Nabongo and Spotts have the right to dispute whatever they want, but not here on Wikipedia. K.Nevelsteen (talk) 11:29, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * These editors researched it and listed Jessica Nabongo as second. User David10244, User Tacyarg, User Kuru, User Hey man im josh
 * Wikipedia does not support own research. If a statement is made on an article it must be backed up by a citation. I have no problem with the article stating Nabongo is second *if* a reputable source is provided (not one based on a report by Spotts herself, which is also against Wiki policy). I do have a problem with your destructive reverts of all my edits, including small things like the actual title of her book under the false Wikipedia policy "promotional". Nabongo has authored a book, that is not promotional that is just fact.--K.Nevelsteen (talk) 19:41, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * What about Kosovo? LegalSmeagolian (talk) 22:56, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I can provide 50 articles about Woni Spotts being the first that predate Nabongo's paid articles. I can provide several schools that have classes teaching students that Woni Spotts is first. The classes are named after Woni Spotts.
 * Woni Spotts belongs to an old establish travel company, further proof is on their site. Spotts completed in 2018 and was celebrated in September 2019, all predating Nabongo. https://travelerscenturyclub.org/archives/6469
 * Her parents are Ugandan and she has a Ugandan passport. Let's simply call her the first African after she visits Syria.
 * There are several articles including an edited CNN article that dispute Nabongo's claim as first.
 * Face to Face Africa https://face2faceafrica.com/article/with-173-of-195-countries-visited-this-ugandan-woman-is-set-to-be-the-first-african-to-travel-the-world 2600:8802:3A12:E700:4D70:9319:5EBA:4BF1 (talk) 14:05, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The Face to Face Africa source is WP:ABOUTSELF--K.Nevelsteen (talk) 20:14, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Anyone following Jessica Nabongo knew it was a publicity stunt. There was a year of paid articles saying she wanted to be first. She had 60 countries left on her list when her travel community found out about Woni Spotts. She tried to quiet the news by removing every story about Woni Spotts from her online travel clubs. She turned her comments off to avoid questions about Woni Spotts. I read the statements from the company that created Woni Spotts' page. Indeed the page was vandalized on the same day Nabongo "finished." She created a Wikipedia page to validate the claim and obtain more media. She got away with the deception for a while until the truth was exposed. W. Steinmeier (talk) 14:23, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
 * If that is the case. Then, perhaps, the move to delete is the best course of action, as per the current notice on the article.--K.Nevelsteen (talk) 04:00, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Agreed. 2600:8802:3A12:E700:BD44:DEA2:75EF:6B0E (talk) 17:59, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Please log in and then agree.--K.Nevelsteen (talk) 21:06, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Another lie. I have never paid for press. That is not how journalism works. You cannot pay CNN, NY Times, etc. What you can do is show proof, e.g. photos, videos, passport stamps, etc. I did not remove any stories about anyone. Catchme15 (talk) 13:37, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I haven't seen any citations with respect to Kosovo and it is not mentioned in the book. Regardless, I'm not going to evaluate whether Nabongo is indeed the first. The article should reflect reputable sources. I stated previously (which has been reverted) "Nabongo celebrated being first", which indeed she did. Another possibility is saying "Nabongo is wildly reported as", but text in the article now is original research without a reputable source, since I don't think a reputable source has deliberated on this dispute.--K.Nevelsteen (talk) 04:00, 23 March 2023 (UTC)--98.128.229.28 (talk) 03:59, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
 * ChatGPT says that Nabongo visited Kosovo in 2018 and that it is mentioned on her Instagram account. It would be interesting if someone could find a link.--K.Nevelsteen (talk) 20:01, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * If you google her last name and Kosovo it comes up, however I would hesitate to use ChatGPT as a source. LegalSmeagolian (talk) LegalSmeagolian (talk) 12:37, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
 * No, we can't use ChatGPT as a source. K.N, why do you think it's interesting? Valereee (talk) 12:48, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
 * It was mentioned on this page that Nabongo doesn't mention Kosovo. I double checked and it isn't in the book, even though Kosovo was supposedly recognized by the UN in 2008. It is pairs with the "entire world" question below. I'm curious as to why Kosovo wouldn't have been on Nabongo's list (in the book) if she was using the UN as a metric. Nabongo said she was using a travel app to mark off counties.--K.Nevelsteen (talk) 05:24, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see. Well, that's getting into original research...we don't sleuth, we wait for someone else to do it and discuss it. If anyone discusses the fact Nabongo didn't mention Kosovo in her book, we could possibly mention it. Valereee (talk) 12:13, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
 * @LegalSmeagolian Strange, if I google it, I don't get any results of Nabongo in Kosovo. Link?--K.Nevelsteen (talk) 05:26, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
 * https://www.instagram.com/p/9y5lxBDW5F/?hl=en and she mentions visiting the "territory" here https://thecatchmeifyoucan.com/2018/03/journey-countries-world.html. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 13:51, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
 * That instagram post isn't from Nabongo, is it? It is from "@oneikatraveller"--K.Nevelsteen (talk) 13:03, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Probably moot, we wouldn't use an insta to support anything but the most non-controversial claims, and considering the discussion of it here this one is controversial for some reason. Valereee (talk) 14:57, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I never vandalized her page. Please stop making up lies. If I did it you need to provide actual proof. Catchme15 (talk) 13:35, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * In my article, "Nabongo notes there is some controversy..." I never said this and I never noted it. There is no source. This should be removed. Catchme15 (talk) 14:19, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The source is the Conde Nast piece, in which you're quoted as saying "A good example is Syria. So I got denied a visa to Syria on my Ugandan passport and then they started giving Americans visas. But I also got denied. So I went to Golan Heights. And so there's a bit of controversy about that. " Valereee (talk) 14:28, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Hello, this is the subject Jessica Nabongo. I am here to comment on multiple false changes to my account. Firstly, I have visited Syria. The United Nations, which is the list which I used for determining, what is a country, considers Golan Heights to be part of Syria. Further, I published a book with National Geographic who fact checked everything. Catchme15 (talk) 13:32, 18 July 2023 (UTC)