Talk:Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring

Needs cleanup
Noting this article on the Classical Music Project's "needs cleanup" list, I started the ball rolling, but not much more. In considerably tightening and organizing the text and correcting a blooper or so, I did my best with all those pop culture references. They are definitely outside my area of expertise, such as it is, however; perhaps an editor more versed in such things should carefully review my work with them to ensure that I didn't go off the rails. In general, the article strikes me as too oriented toward "J,JoMD in pop songs and movies" and skimpy on the work as a piece of classical music—for instance, we have (evidently debatable) reference to J,J's adaptation in a Byrds rock song but none to Joshua Rifkin's one-to-a-part recording, or to any other classical recording for that matter.

Drhoehl 22:15, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Your article is well written. I am not sure, however, that we can ever know the intent for his music, and I am not sure that performing anything that Bach wrote in a venue different from the original is a "defiance." As the article pointed out, the Cantata #147 was already a revision of a previous Cantata and Bach even used the melody from Shop's prior hymn as a cantus firmus for this long enduring and popular work. So in some ways, Bach was already modifying his previous thoughts. He was great improviser and performer, and I often wonder what his thought would be on the various venues that are used today to perform his music. Somehow I think he would approve highly. His keyboard music, other than organ, never specifies the type of instrument--only for clavier (keyboard), and he never specifies tempo or dynamics. These he left to the performer. There are naysayers out there who say that we should only perform Bach on a harpsichord, or only use original instrumentation, but this doesn't seem consistent with Bach's use of his own music. I would hate to think that great music is being relegated to "academic venues." Well that is my bias. As for me, the Myra Hess transcription is just as great as the original she heard that inspired it.

Ha--if someone reads this, I hope you enjoy my little dialogue! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.224.170.174 (talk) 14:32, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Still needs cleanup
I rarely encountered such a confusingly written article, it still needs a major clean-up imho. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:35, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Pronunciation
I'm English, have sung this composition in English and German, and have never heard the opening syllable sung to 'J'. It's always 'Ieusu, Joy of Man's Desiring'. The case made for the pronunciation 'Jaysu' has no citations, and the case from alliteration is terribly weak. I'm not removing the section, because I don't think someone's just made all that up, but think consideration's necessary.

82.40.163.5 (talk) 08:40, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

I will remove the paragraph. All of the alliteration examples are in English and therefore meaningless in terms of the original author's intent. (Indeed, joy starts with an f in the German, rather than the j.) If there is anything at all to this claim, which I very much doubt, then it most certainly needs citations from notable secondary sources in order to be a worthwhile inclusion in any encyclopedia article. As it stands, it looks like original research based in ignorance. -- Jonadab the Unsightly One, 2008 Aug 28 —Preceding undated comment was added at 23:10, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

"Jesu" is the vocative form of "Jesus", and in the olden days it was used in English when addressing him. In English it would have been pronounced with a "j" sound, and in fact (in Modern English) with an "ee" sound -- like "geesue" or "geezue". (But personally I prefer to sing it "Yeh-soo" which is more like the original Hebrew/Aramaic!) Eric Kvaalen (talk) 17:41, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

music sample is terrible
I know there are always issues with copyright for this sort of thing, but that audio sample is absolutely terrible. Surely there must be a better performance somewhere? Timrb (talk) 00:55, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah it's pretty laughably bad. Is it synthesized? I can't tell. Westknife (talk) 10:08, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

I've added an external link to Myra Hess's piano version that's much better and that I have permission to link up. Innerkip (talk) 16:46, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

English version
I find the English version much better than the German. Does anyone know who wrote it? Eric Kvaalen (talk) 17:41, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Found the answer: Robert Bridges, poet laureate. Eric Kvaalen (talk) 12:26, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

The Mormon Tabernacle Choir's lyrics seem to be slightly different. Specifically, the line "With the fire of life impassioned" sounds like "With Thy blood our faith impassioned.' And, "Soaring, dying round Thy throne" sounds like "Life attaining in Thy throne." --Traal (talk) 06:14, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Robert Bridges' Yattendon hymnal from 1899 contained texts with tunes. Does anybody know, which tune he attributed to Jesu, joy...? Was it already the choral line of Bach's BWV 147:10, or if not, who first combined both? --Rabanus Flavus (talk) 06:51, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

So, who wrote it, and when?
For a layperson like me, this article (like so many others here on Wikipedia) is confusing. And again like so many other articles on WP, that's partly because it assumes specialized knowledge on the part of the reader.

It says something about this piece having been "written during his first year in Leipzig, Germany". Well, when was that? Am I supposed to know that?

Further confusing matters is the implication in this article that Bach wrote it at a previous time (Bach's "Weimar period", whenever that was), and then re-wrote it later in Leipzig. So when did he write the famous part that we've all heard at weddings, etc.?

And as if that's not enough, the article states, later on, that Bach didn't even write it after all! "Contrary to the common assumption, the violinist and composer Johann Schop, not Bach, composed the movement's underlying chorale melody..." WTF??? Can somebody explain all this, please? An encyclopedia is supposed to illuminate, not obfuscate. Captain Quirk (talk) 04:42, 25 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Let's start at the end: Bach rarely wrote any chorale melody, he set given melodies for four parts. So if you hear just the melody, Schop is the author, 1641, if you hear Bach's harmonization, Bach is the author. He included this hymn in Leipzig, in 1723, for 2 July, about a month after he took office there. - I suggest you may better read the cantata article ;) - I confess that I never read this one. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:36, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

Key?
I can't believe that nowhere in this article, does it say what key the piece was originally written in. Nor does the article on the containing composition. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.89.187.241 (talk) 04:44, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I looked at my score: G major. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:42, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

"close familiar friendship"...
"Jahn's verses[6][7] express a close, friendly, and familiar friendship with Jesus"

Not really. It reads as a very drastically corporal relationship in the original german

Oh wie feste halt ich ihn- o how tightly I hold him

It stands in the tradition of Jesus seen as the bridegrroom of his bride, the christian soul. There is a strong tendency to ommit the appearance of sexual metaphors in german to english translation of pietist lyrics.

"O how strong I hold to him" was given as a trranslation 2 years ago.

-- 2A01:598:A900:7A67:1:1:ABCF:E9B2 (talk) 04:46, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Contemporary renditions
Should Apollo 100's "Joy" be spun off as a separate article? It is essentially the very same composition, and doing so seems contrary to standard procedure for articles on the same topic. More often than not, the consensus ends up being to merge or combine. - JGabbard (talk) 19:04, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Following the discussion at Articles for deletion/O Tannenbaum (They Might Be Giants song) and at O Tannenbaum, I suggest to treat Joy's version here similarly, i.e. mention it as a one-line entry. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 00:07, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
 * That works fine for the Ventures cover, but not for Apollo 100 because theirs was such a significant international hit. By that reasoning, "All By Myself" would be just a brief footnote on the "Piano_Concerto_No._2_(Rachmaninoff)" article. Notwithstanding, "All By Myself," being more well known than the original, of course has its own article. - JGabbard (talk) 19:15, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
 * In that case, shouldn't there be an for ? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 00:26, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Perhaps, but then shouldn't there be an for  instead of being merged in with Hier Encore?  Bottom line is, be it different titles (This Guy's in Love with You vs. This Girl's in Love with You) or different renditions in this case, they are all merged because they are one and the same song. - JGabbard (talk) 01:45, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
 * "Hier encore" and "Yesterday, When I Was Young" are the same song in different languages. "This  in Love with You" are the same song. The Apollo 100 song "Joy" is not the same as "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring" – it's an instrumental pop rendition. That's why presenting it here at length amounts to WP:UNDUE and possibly WP:COATRACK. If an article for the song can't stand on its own (and I don't see why it couldn't), such a lengthy presentation here is wrong – see "O Tannenbaum" by They Might Be Giants. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 06:49, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Words not in Yattendon Hymnal
Here is a complete scan of Yattendon Hymnal 1899. Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring is not in it. --Rabanus Flavus (talk) 20:49, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Reference to Yattendon Hymnal deleted. --Rabanus Flavus (talk) 19:56, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

move?
"Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring" is an incredibly inappropriate name for this article, as it is about the chorale itself, not just the piano transcription. "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring" is an inaccurate translation that is used for the piano transcription, it more accurately translates to "Jesus remains my joy". The article should be renamed to "Jesus remains my joy" and "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring" should be an auto redirect to a subsection about the piano transcription. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Laganrat (talk • contribs) 15:34, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
 * How many mentions of "Jesus remains my joy" do you find? And how many of "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring"? – WP:COMMONNAME. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 04:12, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Modern adaptations
Precious joy Modern Jazz Quartet

2606:6000:FECD:1400:D136:582F:8320:C210 (talk) 01:44, 26 November 2020 (UTC)