Talk:Jetsunma Ahkon Lhamo

Recognitions
I moved the new recognitions material to the recognitions section to be relevant. Also added in a few new sections headers to help the readers. Best, if the intro should follow these guidelines. WP:MOSBIO Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 05:07, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Cancer cure claims
Need to be removed from this article or written in a neutral tone. As if the ridiculous photo wasn't enough, claiming to cure cancer with prayer is a standard red flag for nonsense and needs to be fixed immediately. Viriditas (talk) 20:08, 5 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I'll look at the claims and neutral tone. Apparently there are some new sections that have been added and I haven't been around in a while.


 * Her photo is fine, if you mean the main one. It's the same or similar to the one used in Associated Press articles about JAL. Longchenpa (talk) 14:27, 16 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Ridiculous as Remission_(medicine).  Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 02:08, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Rinchen Terdzod Section
I changed the wording to indicate that contrary to the prior text, there were other Westerners who were recognized and enthroned. In particular Vajracharya Ven. Peling Tulku Rinpoche, was enthroned by HH Penor Rinpoche in 2001 as the mind emanation of Padma Lingpa and the activity emanation of Karma Lingpa. He was the highest tulku ever recognized in a western birth.

Source: http://palyulcanada.org/wp/teachers/ven-peling-tulku-rinpoche

Geoff.zinderdine (talk) 21:14, 29 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Not sure about the claim of anyone being the highest western tulku recognized--how does one determine such a thing?--but most of the articles about Jetsunma refer to her as the "first western woman to be recognized as a tulku."
 * I like the link and the article about Ven. Peling Tulku Rinpoche. It's sad that he's gone. When did he pass away? The article doesn't seem to say.
 * We should include the cycles of teachings and empowerments Jetsunma's received; it's important and we haven't covered it. Preliminary list... the Kama in 1988 from HH Penor Rinpoche, Rinchen Terzod, the Nyingthig Yabshi and Ratna Lingpa cycle in 1990 from Yangthang Rinpoche, Chod from Ngakpa Yeshe Dorje in 1992(?), the various termas from HH Khenchen Jigmed Phuntsog in 1993, the Nam Cho from HH Penor Rinpoche in 1995, not sure about what came after that. The Chimed Tsogthig was in there somewhere. Longchenpa (talk) 06:10, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

New source
for inclusion. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 13:50, 29 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Eh. I'd rather not include it. It's depressing, for one. Also, it's a current event and we don't how important it's going to be to the article. It might be important. Might turn out to be a passing blip. In the meantime I don't want to elevate some crackpot. Longchenpa (talk) 06:29, 3 September 2011 (UTC)


 * It will take some other published sources to make it wiki significant and relevant. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 01:30, 7 September 2011 (UTC)


 * CNN, Forbes, Ars Technica. It definitely passes the notability test and should therefore be included. - Hux (talk) 07:05, 17 December 2011 (UTC)


 * I looked at including it, but the case itself is The United States of America vs. William L. Cassidy. What it impacts is the cyberstalking law. The cyberstalking article definitely should be updated with this new decision. Longchenpa (talk) 15:08, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Stalking case
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2075332/Do-world-favor-kill-One-8-000-horrifying-death-threats-ruled-free-speech--author-posted-online.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 14:55, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Jude Order to dismiss https://www.eff.org/sites/default/files/filenode/cassidy-order-121511.pdf

Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 21:56, 18 December 2011 (UTC)


 * I looked it over. The case is The United States of America vs. William L. Cassidy. I agree it's notable and should be added to the cyberstalking article:
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberstalking Longchenpa (talk) 14:56, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Add empowerments and teachings she's received
As I mentioned above, we should include the empowerments and teachings she's received. It's traditional, and other than the Rinchen Terzod, we haven't covered it. I have a preliminary list (above), though it's missing what she received in India in 1987 & 1996, and everything from '97-09. Not sure if it needs a new section or if we can include the info in some of the other sections. Longchenpa (talk) 06:36, 3 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Where are these published? Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 01:31, 7 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Buddha From Brooklyn, as well as other sources. Longchenpa (talk) 15:31, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Recent BLP issues
I removed the recent string of edits which have disrupted the article with WP:BLP issues. There may be new sources to add controversial material, however they must be from reliable secondary sources and presented in a neutral tone to meet Wikipedia standards for inclusion. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 20:50, 4 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Apparently people need to be educated about appropriate sources. In a particularly circular example (which proves the point) one of the references used was an archived version of this Wiki article. Longchenpa (talk) 18:27, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

The article states that "her Wikipedia page is kept scrubbed free of references to controversy and mentions of the word "cult," with all edits critical of Jetsunma being removed usually within a few hours of posting." This is obviously incorrect, since the page contains many critical statements. Indeed, given that the quoted sentence appears on the referenced page, it's self-contradictory.35.16.4.82 (talk) 19:51, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The WP:BLP issues have been hashed out thoroughly. People don't understand that Wikipedia isn't the place for personal opinions. Longchenpa (talk) 08:06, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Secondary Sources in BLP
Apprecaite the contribution however, secondary sources may be required for this to maintain WP:BLP and remain in the article. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 01:14, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Alternate name
Hey,

I would just like to ask the mods to please make a search for "Catharine Burroughs" to link directly to her page. I couldn't remember this woman's real name or dharma name, just "Catharine Burroughs," and it took me like 10 minutes to find her page. (And yes, I know that this page is the first thing that pops up when you search using that name...) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.212.212.83 (talk) 03:40, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Hmm. It's a thought. But I'm not sure what that would require. The times I've seen it have been when two pages were combined into one. Longchenpa (talk) 05:25, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Kapala image
The kapala image has been removed somehow. Looking for a new copy of it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.141.74.63 (talk) 22:29, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Steven Seagal material
It seems that most of the information about Steven Seagal should be deleted from here, or moved to the Steven Seagal article, if it isn't already there; most of it isn't relevant to this particular biography. Any thoughts or suggestions? Thanks. AD64 (talk) 23:33, 2 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Discussion of celebrities is definitely off-topic. I've removed it. Longchenpa (talk) 03:33, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for taking care of this, Longchenpa. Do you think that one line about Steven Seagal being the only other recognized tulku is relevant to the article? Appreciate your support. Best, AD64 (talk) 03:43, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Another thought, do we have sources that confirm that Ahkon Lhamo and Steven Seagal are the only other recognized western tulkus? I think there could be others. Thus, deleting all of the material may be the best call after all. Best, AD64 (talk) 17:13, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
 * There are numerous other recognized western tulkus, five mentioned in the film Tulku alone. Longchenpa (talk) 09:25, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

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Dec 2018 NPOV tag added to article
It looks as if, over time, this article has become non-neutral due to the paucity of well-sourced criticisms and controversies coupled with sourcing issues such lack of RS or possible overuse of primary sourcing. I'll be chipping away at this with the aim of a neutral, encyclopedic article per WP:BLPSTYLE.  petrarchan47  คุ  ก   19:26, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

Removed - Prison program
I've removed the section on the prison program as it was sourced only to tara dot org (the subject's own site). The link provided leads to a dead page, and a search for "prison program" results in only one page that is of no help.  petrarchan47  คุ  ก   19:33, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

Removed - Projects pending
"Projects pending" had only one subsection, copied below. A project pending since 1990 does not seem to merit inclusion, but perhaps a mention of the land and how it's being used today could be added elsewhere to this, or more fittingly, to the KPC article. However, more recent references are lacking.  petrarchan47  คุ  ก   20:08, 24 December 2018 (UTC)


 * In 1990, Jetsunma announced ambitious plans to build a monastery for 500 monks and nuns on 65 acres of land purchased by KPC. Sixteen monks and nuns were temporarily housed in a retreat center until the monastery could be built. As reported by Mirabella magazine, by 1992, Jetsunma asked that the ordained offer the retreat center to be renovated into a Lama residence.(Blythe, pg 112) The monastery has not yet been built though some ordained live on KPC property. Plans for a future monastery are still pending.

Removed - Hosting of important Tibetan Buddhist teachers and teachings
There was no RS offered for this section:


 * Jetsunma has invited and hosted many important Nyingma and Kagyu lamas and offered her centers in Maryland and Arizona as venues for their teachings, including: HH Penor Rinpoche; Ven. Gyatrul Rinpoche; HH Khenpo Jigme Phuntsok & Ani Mumtso; HH Karma Kuchen Rinpoche; Mugsang Tulku; Khentrul Gyangkhang Rinpoche; Khenchen Tsewang Gyatso; Khenchen Pema Sherab; Khenpo Namdrol; HH Ngawang Tenzin Rinpoche (Bhutan); Ven. Khenchen Palden Sherab Rinpoche and Ven. Khenpo Tsewang Dongyal Rinpoche; Chagdud Tulku Rinpoche; Ven. Yangthang Tulku; HE Taklung Tsetrul Rinpoche; HH Chetsang Rinpoche; Tulku Sangngag, Choji Rinpoche; Dzigar Kongtrul Rinpoche; Ven. Ngagpa Yeshe Dorje; HH Orgyen Kusum Lingpa; Tulku Rigdzin Pema; Bhaka Tulku; Khenpo Tenzin Norgey; and Lama Kuntuzangpo, Baasan Lama, and Lama Baasansuren (Mongolia).

Early Life section
NPOV needed fixing. The early life section is still too long. Longchenpa (talk)

History of this page
A monk from KPC did in fact re-write this article, and I've largely been protecting the page from vandals and have been remiss in rewriting it to NPOV. But please respect BLP. This is a living person. I'm NOT a vandal so stop reverting my changes. Longchenpa (talk)

2007 version of this article
User talk:Petrarchan47, you're going back to an old version of the article from 2007 that we can't use. While the tone of that version sounds more neutral, it's riddled with problems that caused a massive edit war 12 years ago (yes, I've been working on this article that long). One of the problems is that it's riddled with dog whistles that violate BLP. The really big problem is that the references aren't accurate. When you actually go back to The Buddha From Brooklyn and look for the page references, you can't find things like 'gradually shifted from using "Christ consciousness" to "Buddha consciousness."' Longchenpa (talk) 14:46, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry: "you're going back to an old version of the article from 2007" - what does this mean? I haven't reverted to an older version, but have been editing the page as I found it. The page references don't align exactly with the copy of BfB that I have, but that doesn't mean these references were made up and don't exist. If you have a copy, please check before assuming this is the case.
 * Please elucidate the problems to which you're referring; your comment as written leaves me in the dark and unable to help.   petrarchan47  คุ  ก   06:42, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

Jetsumma
The subject was referred to throughout the article as "Jetsunma." Jetsun or Jetsunma is a Tibetan title meaning "venerable" or "reverend." We don't refer to subject's by their title, only by their name. I've substituted Ahkon Lhamo throughout. Skyerise (talk) 18:26, 29 September 2021 (UTC)


 * I noticed the change this morning. I've no objection, I think it's better for NPOV. I made a point of doing the same for the Khenchen Konchog Gyaltsen article. Longchenpa (talk) 17:14, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

Re-write
Have done a complete rewrite of the article, revising hyperbolic language. Longchenpa (talk) 22:45, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

NPOV help needed
Please see this version of the article to get an idea of the thorough POV scrubbing that has taken place over the years. Readers are getting a promotional article rather than an encyclopedic one.  petrarchan47 คุ  ก  15:37, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
 * This article will perpetually have POV issues, in large part because no one without a POV has any interest in it. An awful lot of what has been hacked out of it over time, however, needed to be, due to WP:BLP and libel concerns. We must take due care when addressing controversies and accusations. But even something as seemingly simple as whether to use Zeoli or Akhon Lhamo is going to see-saw back and forth forever as editors with different ideas of what constitutes "neutral" apply their particular points of view. —KGF0 ( T | C ) 22:35, 9 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Actually, what's happened is that we had a chopped up mess that was the result of an edit war, that was replaced with a promotional version, that is slowly being edited for a neutral tone and updated with more recent articles. The Buddha From Brooklyn came out in 1999 which was more than 20 years ago. Zeoli is in her 70's now. Longchenpa (talk) 02:54, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Removing Characterization section
This is a biography of a living person. Longchenpa (talk) 02:55, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Moving Kunzang Palyul Choling-specific information
Some of what's in this article should be on the Kunzang Palyul Choling page (such as fundraisers -- they are for the temple, not her). Others should be re-written to indicate her personal involvement. Longchenpa (talk) 19:17, 12 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Started the re-writes. Longchenpa (talk) 19:43, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Incomplete
Having never heard of this person I came here to find out why people are angry at her. Not a line. Talk page shows evidence of repeated scrubbing. Look brothers and sisters, I understand that rants and innuendo have no place here, but where there is significant controversy, that's both notable and necessary to the facts. In this case, controversy is such that readers like me are finding out about this public figure through that alone. In such cases, most of our articles include a line in the contents called "Controversies" or "Controversy over X". Those links may lead to just one or two sentences, but they cover our encyclopedic duty.

This article needs such a section stat. Anything less casts doubt on the objectivity and reliability of our service. Laodah 23:16, 16 February 2022 (UTC)


 * No, thanks, that's troll bait. We tried such a section in 2008 and ended up in an edit war with both students and detractors. I doubt the Wiki mods want to referee another one. Longchenpa (talk) 20:38, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree and added a section that discusses the controversies with citations to respected newspapers and magazines like LA Times, Tricycle and so on. This way, there is at least some information about this controversial teacher here.Javier F.V. 16:49, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Overlap between Kunzang Palyul Choling and this page
I'm rewriting the charitable works section to focus on her actions. There is going to be overlap, however, because of the "follow the leader" effect typical of Buddhist temples: she adopts abandoned dogs, asks the temple to follow suit, then a dog rescue is founded, etc. Kind of impossible to separate it completely and still have an accurate article. Longchenpa (talk) 23:28, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Deleted wildly biased section
Deleted a section that was wildly biased -- recall this is a biography of a living person. We are not going through another edit war, dragging in three Wiki moderators. We went through that in 2008. Longchenpa (talk) 13:16, 24 November 2022 (UTC)


 * The references you removed are WP:RS, and a 2008 edit war is not sufficient justification for removing them. If you object to specific wording, please discuss the issues you have here. If there is a dispute about how these references should be included that can't be resolved here, a request for comment could be filed to get input from other editors.Dialectric (talk) 15:56, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
 * They are book reviews and not reliable sources. And we're not going back to the edit war, forget it. Longchenpa (talk) 02:28, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

The promised rewrite is complete
At long last, we no longer have discrete sections, but rather a narrative flow using articles about her life that pick up from The Buddha From Brooklyn (published 23 years ago) through news reports in the present. Thank you for your patience. Longchenpa (talk) 06:16, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

Removal of Steven Seagal cite
Agree with the change. The citation must be leftover from other material removed from the article. Longchenpa (talk) 19:45, 3 December 2023 (UTC)