Talk:Jeu de cartes (Balanchine)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: seems to be no consensus to do this move at the moment Kotniski (talk) 09:25, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Jeu de cartes (Balanchine) → Jeu de cartes — The only other article with this title is 1992 ballet Jeu de cartes (Martins) based on the same music, so I'm requesting this as the primary topic per WP:TWODABS. Stravinsky collaborated with Balanchine to create the 1937 ballet, so if an article mentions "Stravinsky's Jeu de cartes", it means this one.  Ja Ga  talk 16:43, 3 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Oppose but not with any hostility; this is a peculiar case, possibly unique in the ballet world, in that Martins was Balanchine's protégé and made the ballet to the same music that the master had used at the latter's instigation (see New York City Ballet website repertory entry for Jeu de cartes (Martins).)
 * What makes it peculiar is that Martins succeeded Balanchine (and Jerome Robbins) as balletmaster-in-chief at NYCB and the company now dances his wholly unrelated version — as recently as last year (it's not a situation like Swan Lake where even the most radical versions relate to or react against the original.) JaGa is perfectly correct to consider the Balanchine/Stravinsky collaboration — one of many — as more significant in the historical context, but it's been replaced in the rep. by the Martins (not an uncommon developement either in ballet.)
 * The situation gets even messier in that the Balanchine pre-dates NYCB by a decade, though the music was commissioned by Lincoln Kirstein, Balanchine's co-founder of City Ballet, and Kirstein's close friend EM Warburg (on whose estate some of Balanchine and Kirstein's precursor companies performed.)
 * Balanchine named most of his ballets for the music (a practice now commonplace) but here translated the title, initially as The Card Game and later as The Card Party, so if we want to be thorough — and thoroughly academic — about things these names should redirect to Jeu de cartes (Balanchine), as it is often called these days following the choreographer's later habit of not translating music titles, but which properly speaking is not its title at all!
 * It was due to this tangle of names that I created the Jeu de cartes (ballet) redirect contrary to the WP:TWODABS guidelines, and I wonder whether there might be a consensus that this is an exception to the rule. — Robert Greer (talk) 18:59, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Afterthoughts: Perhaps what is needed is to MERGE Jeu de cartes (Balanchine) and Jeu de cartes (Martins) into Jeu de cartes (ballet) and redirect both of them, as well as Jeu de cartes (Stravinsky) and the various alternate names of the Balanchine there (possibly with R to section). My reasoning is as follows.
 * The Balanchine Jeu de cartes has been replaced in the repertory by the Martins, which in turn owes not only its music but its very existence to Balanchine's mentoring of Martins, and the Stravinsky music owes its existence to a commission by Balanchine's patron and artistic collaborator Lincoln Kirstein. They form an inseperable triad and might be best served by treatment in one, combined article (this contrary to my usual preference for seperate articles.) — Robert Greer (talk) 20:04, 5 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Oppose "jeu de cartes" == card game; I've see that used to refer to some European casino card games before. 64.229.102.230 (talk) 04:40, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.