Talk:Jewish culture

Music and Dance
To help shrink this article, I have moved off secular music and dance to their own page. It was also very confusing the way Jewish Music would send users here for secular music. I also added headlines for each of the types of music, "Klezmer", "Sephardic", "Israeli Folk," etc.... I also added a leadin for the Jewish Humor within this article. Epson291 09:04, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Circumcision reference
Is it not true that non-religious Jews are more likely to circumcise their sons than the statistical norm of most societies? Can someone come up with a reference? Why does this community shy away from dealing with the connection between Jewish culture and circumcision? Is there some kind of shame associated with it? What does this shame tell you? Sirkumsize 02:36, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Why are you asking so many leading questions? Jayjg (talk)  14:27, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
 * But to address your question despite your tone: probably non-religious Jews are more likely to circumcise their sons than the statistical norm of most societies. Just like they are less likely to eat pork. And just like secular people of Christian background are likely to celebrate Christmas and unlikely to feast on Passover. These are all customs of religious origin that tend to slide over into secular cultures of people of those backgrounds. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:55, Jun 7, 2005 (UTC)

Even the most secular, non-religous Jews will circumcise their sons. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.243.41.10 (talk) 00:06, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

There are also very religious Jews who do not circumcise their sons, though probably the majority of both religious and secular Jews do. 75.144.254.117 (talk) 20:33, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

WikiProject Jewish culture
I'm spreading the word about this WikiProject, which is intended to be a forum for discussion on all aspects of Jewish culture / contribution to society (apart from the explicitly religious). Please feel free to join in and help out! RMoloney (talk) 23:38, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

What are secular Jewish cultural traits?
Can anyone help with this question? I can't find discussion of traits online. Observations such as "22% of Nobel Prize winners" (from the article) seem to imply differences, but what are they? I come from a Jewish family that has been Athiest for three generation and wouldn't have known I was Jewish if I hadn't been told. I don't even know the names of the Jewish holidays. Yet I suspect that I can sense a cultural affinity with other secular Jews.

I suspect there are traits to do with education, intellectualism, agumentativeness, money management (steriotypes may be there for a reason), consumerism. There must be others, and studies published. Can anyone point me in the right direction? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rowaneisner (talk • contribs) 24 Dec 2005


 * I'm not going to try to answer more than a little of this but:
 * secular Ashkenazi culture (which seems to have become the topic of this article) is a very separate matter from any Sephardi culture. I gather from that "Eisner" that you are probably from an Ashkenazaic background, as am I.
 * I've never seen any indication of Jews being more consumption-oriented than anyone else. There are individuals who are, but same in any other group. But conscious in terms of money on some other levels? Yes. No WASP-y taboo against bargaining, no taboo against discussing prices, salaries, things like that.
 * Frankly, I find the pointing to Jewish Nobel prizewinners annoying. Yes, Jews tend to value education, and I'm sure that has been a big factor having so many Nobel prizewinners, but it kind of pisses me off when I watch it turn into some kind of implicit argument for ethnic superiority by perfectly average people try to associate themselves with some sort of claim of "racial genius" that somehow associates millions of with a relative handful of standouts.
 * Jmabel | Talk 08:20, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

The article on secular Jewish culture clearly says there is none. It says all the geographic groups have a different secular culture.

And that is what one would expect. What things unrelated to religion could the Falashmura, Arab, New York, Russian, and Iranian Jews possibly have in common? I have yet to hear of any but the Jewish Arabs ululate.

If there is to be a claim of a Jewish culture unrelated to religion then one has to list secular things which are common to all Jews else there is no such thing.

Matt Giwer (talk) 00:30, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Agree 100%. There is not a single example in the article of a cultural trait which is specifically Jewish and not related to Judaism. Everything claimed to be Jewish is actually borrowed from other cultures. Even Israel doesn't have any specifically Jewish culture (according to this article). I say delete the whole thing. Fourtildas (talk) 05:35, 8 July 2008 (UTC)


 * My ("Gentile") take on it would mostly have to do with a value upon a good education, an ethnic link to the Jewish religion (where such "ethnic roots to a religion" are mainly a social construct and to a large degree an issue of labeling from outside), and a shared Jewish experience of living within an anti-Semitic environment throughout most of the diaspora period. Beyond that, yes, there are large, considerable differences between Ashkenazis, Sephards, and Old Jehuv who never left the Middle East. --80.187.106.89 (talk) 14:44, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

We need more on Sephardim and we need more on Europe
A lot of this is getting too focused on Ashekenazim and on the U.S. We need more on Sephardim and we need more on Europe. And more on Mizrahim (in the broad sense) and far more on Israel. This has not been deliberate omission, this has been a matter of some of us writing what we know.

We also need more on the emergence of secular Jewish culture in the era of emancipation, and more on the Hellenizing Jews of 2000 years ago.

I suspect that a lot of what we are writing now will have to be radically reworked when more material is added. -- Jmabel | Talk 09:17, 25 December 2005 (UTC)


 * "This has not been deliberate omission, this has been a matter of some of us writing what we know." I suppose that is exactly what my additions were. Instead of the material being "radically reworked", I would probably prefer of we could add the needed information to balance the article but without deleting or cutting down on what is already there. The "Theatre" section now includes information on Israeli and European theatre, if that helps as a start. I think that the music section is much better than when it was just one paragraph, however. Previously on Jewish music the only reference to secular music was a link to klezmer, so it seemed necessary to explain how the works of Jewish musicians and composers in European and American forms is also a part of Jewish secular culture. Yid613 09:41, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Absolutely. But we have to beware of largely duplicating Jewish_American. I'm not sure if the division into genres is the right way to structure this, and I think it may be more revealing to structur it by times and places. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:50, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

-

Changed "singer  Mel Torméduring " to "singer  Mel Tormé  during". Wasn't that first guy in the Silmarillion? :-) 2 january 2006

Definition and scope, or lack thereof
Is it possible to clear up the muddled philosophy and sociology behind the term "secular Jewish culture"? Searching briefly on the web, I see the term only at irreligious organizations. That makes it hard to create an NPOV definition without expressing an original perspective. The top Google hits are organizations focusing on "Jewish Secular Humanism", "Secular Judaism" , and "Cultural Judaism". The next one may be more accepting of religious belief, I don't know.

Our premise is that Jewish culture is hardly limited to religious study and practice. We need articles that discuss the phenomenon of Jewish culture broadly. However, I'm not sure that it's NPOV, or encyclopedic, or even helpful, to start the discussion by circumscribing "secular Jewish culture" as such. Can anyone provide scholarly sources for the idea? Isn't there scholarly consensus, or at least discussion, on how to approach the body of Jewish-flavored cultural works?

Why not revise the scope a bit, perhaps as a series of articles on "Jewish themes in art", "- literature", etc. (not limited to religious themes)?

--Hoziron 14:13, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Jewish WIKIVERSITY
NEW: On Wikiversity there is now a "Jewish Studies School." Will it become a "duplication" of many things on Wikipedia? What should it's goals and functions be? Please add your learned views. Thank you. IZAK 09:12, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Jewish Ethnicity
Perhaps it is important to note that Jews have not interbred with their host countries, thus preserving a large part of their original Semitic ethnicity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smnioffe (talk • contribs) 11 December 2006 (UTC)

problem is 99.999% of jews are mixed with wherever they migrated to —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.175.1.253 (talk) 08:50, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The "original ethnicity" of Jews is not Semitic, it's Hebrew. Semitic is a language family. --80.187.106.89 (talk) 15:07, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Allen Ginsberg
any reason ginsberg isn't included? his two most famous poems (howl & kaddish) both include allusions to his judaism.

thanks, 70.49.58.177 22:50, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Yiddish culture
A couple of wikipedia pages link to Yiddishism and to Yiddish culture. Do people feel these should have pages? If so, does anyone feel like starting them? BobFromBrockley 10:28, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I feel that all three of these would overlap considerably. I'd say more expansion is needed here, and on Yiddishkeit -Lazer Stein (talk) 11:59, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Orphan alert
Jewish geography, the social game, needs incoming links -- and this article seemed appropriate, but I couldn't find a place for it. Most of the existing sections were too specific. --Dhartung | Talk 04:16, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Popular culture vastly disproportionately represented over, say, science
I was shocked to find paragraph after paragraph after paragraph on dance, song, theatre of this kind and the other kind, movies, and all manner of popular culture. . . with science and the not-even-mentioned mathematics given one whole tiny paragraph.

This profoundly misrepresents the distribution of professions among secular Jews.Daqu 09:02, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:West Side Story Poster.gif
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BetacommandBot (talk) 07:28, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Science is inappropriate
While there are many Jews represented in science so are all major religions and a lot of minor religions. There is nothing uniquely Jewish about science. Even Einstein was a German.

Preceding unsigned comment added by Matt Giwer (talk • contribs) 22:12, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Need this clearing up - Secular Jewish Culture
"For example, religiously observant Orthodox Jews who write literature and music or produce films with non-religious themes are participating in secular Jewish culture, even if they are not s

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Chinese food
I've just removed this addition:
 * American Jews have often adopted take-out Chinese food as a sort of second Jewish cuisine. This has occured thanks to the large overlap of Jewish and Chinese immigrants in New York City during the last century, where only restaurants run by non-Christians (i.e. Asians) would be open on Sundays and Christian holidays... and "in many dishes pork and shrimp are minced to the point of plausible deniability" . It is now fairly common to see vegetarian-Kosher Chinese restaurants in Chinatowns. Many Jewish families have established a tradition of going out for Chinese food and then to a movie on Christmas, when there is little else available to do. This has become an established point of humor in Jewish culture, with Christmas-Eve comedy shows in recent years even billing themselves as "Kung Pao Kosher Comedy" and "The Mu-Shu Jew Show".

It sounds fun, but the sources are journalistic rather than academic. (I've hyperlinked them.) The main points are not sourced -- e.g. first sentence, "many Jewish families", many kosher restaurants in Chinatowns. Maybe I'm being too punctilious. What do other editors think? (Including, but not limited to, the one who wrote this.) BrainyBabe (talk) 07:02, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Isaac Babel
Isaac Babel was a Soviet writer, the word "Russian" isn't precise.Xx236 (talk) 13:25, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, "Soviet" isn't too precise, either. He was a Soviet-era writer (and not necessarily sympathetic to the movement), but was born in the Ukraine pre-revolution.  Russian writer usually implies language used.  -  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lazer Stein (talk • contribs) 19:26, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Relationship with Christianity
Some academics have questioned whether secular Judaism or religious Judaism is considered to be the most hostile to Christianity. Both arguably contain strains that are deeply critical of Christian teachings. For instance, secular Judaism has produced revolutionary characters like Baruch Spinoza, Karl Marx, Leon Trotsky and Herbert Marcuse, while religious Judaism has a comparable number of internal currents such as religious Zionism, Haredi Judaism, Hasidic Judaism and Chabad that show no real desire to entering in a pragmatic dialogue with the leaders of the Christian Church. ADM (talk) 22:24, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not seeing any immediate connection to this question and the content of the article. If anything, I see it as a foray into an argument that you wish to have. Remember, Wikipedia is not a Soapbox. To answer your question honestly, I don't believe either Religious or Secular Judaism (they aren't so easily distinguishable before the 19th Century anyway) have it out for Christianity. Judaism has been mostly apathetic towards Christianity, in that in arguing against it, nothing can be gained economically or socially. The self-righteousness which may emerge from such an argument is ultimately poisoning.
 * If you examine closely the writings of Moses Mendelssohn, you will see this is ultimately the truth. The Lavater incident shows Mendelssohn's reluctance to enter into this argument, and in his correspondance with Lavater he expresses regret that Lavater has attempted to bait him into the arena. Said Mendelssohn, "[T]he written and oral Law that constitutes our revealed religion is binding for our people alone." Please see "Mendelssohn's religious perspective of non-Jews" in the Journal of Ecumenical Studies, Summer/Fall 2004. Wes! &#149; Tc

Jews have no 'hostility' to Christianity whether they be secular or orthodox. It is simply irrelevant. It only becomes an issue when messianic Christians try to impose their belief system on vulnerable Jews. To the learned Jew, 'Jesus' is simply an invention based on mis-translations and ignorance of the Hebrew scriptures. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.243.41.10 (talk) 00:17, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

discussion on Judaism and the secular Jewish identity
Please note the discussion arising at Talk:Judaism. Thank you. Maysara (talk) 11:04, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

I am hoping one or more editors
can come over to Jacob Epstein and help us resolve what is escalating into a very contentious discussion about whether or not Epstein should be classified as a Category:Jewish sculptors, Category:Jewish artists, and more. Thanks Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 21:28, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Jewish film composers under "FIlm"
Why is there an indiscriminate list of film composers with Jewish background under this section with no mention of what their connection to Jewish culture is? All these people are from various backgrounds with different connections to Judaism and the culture around it. Seems like a lot of WP:SYNTH going on there. Bull dog123 16:45, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Proposal: splitting "American English-language theatre" section into separate article
It's a long section, and it can only get longer (for example, I'm sure the book Making Americans: Jews and the Broadway Musical, which isn't used in the article although a review of it is, would be super useful for providing more information). A separate article would allow for better structure on the history and development of the musical, explicit Judaism in the musical (Fiddler, Parade, the other things mentioned), possibly even pop-cultural references to the influence of Jews on Broadway ("You Won't Succeed" from Spamalot).

My question would be, though, would straight (ie. non-musical) theatre also be split into that article? Right now it's not a very big part of the section, but with expansion from good sources, perhaps it could be. However, my inclination is to create an article just on Jews and musicals, and leave the straight theatre content here. -- Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 06:28, 16 January 2011 (UTC)


 * This article is about Secular Jewish culture not "Pop-culture references to Jews in theatre." The latter is not an encyclopedic article per WP:NOT. I wouldn't oppose just taking the entire section out and making an article or merging the article - if it gets too long - into Yiddish theatre or Jewish theatre though. Bull dog123  02:58, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Are you kidding? The article has paragraphs and paragraphs on how Jews were instrumental to the development of American musical theatre. I'm saying I think that deserves a separate article. The Spamalot joke would not be an integral part of that article. Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 03:10, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * ...which, to finish my thought, is not at all the same thing as Yiddish theatre, and "Jewish theatre" is both a dab page and also not the same thing. Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 03:11, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree that it would be helpful to start a new article about Jewish influence on American English-language theatre. Then the section here could be shortened to hit the highlights.  Yes, I do think the new article should include both plays and musicals.  I wonder if there is a similar article somewhere about Jewish influence in American film/radio/TV.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 06:58, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
 * What do you think the article would be called? "Jews and Broadway" is a short snappy title, "Jews and American theatre" less so but still concise, but with radio/film/TV..."Jews and American performing arts"? Eep. Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 07:04, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
 * A little too snappy, I think. I would go with Jews and American theatre and have a separate article for Jews and American film, TV and radio.  I am sure that each of these articles would be plenty involved without trying to combine them.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 07:16, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Peter L. Berger
Thinking about adding a section on him. He claims, in his book The Sacred Canopy, that Judaism was prone to develop secularism because it places so much emphasis on history, rather than just faith, etc. Is this relevant? - Lazer Stein (talk) 12:03, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Jewish culture redirect to here
Jewish culture is a redirect to here. Almost no articles link to here with the word secular. Either this article should be moved to Jewish culture, or we need to disambiguate that term and to a lot of redirect fixing. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; talk to me 20:32, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 06:26, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Secular Jewish culture → Jewish culture – Per my argument above. Then a section on religious culture can be added. The split between secular and religious is artificial, and not done for any other Wikipedia article on ethnic or national culture, as far as I can tell. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; talk to me 04:47, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Secular (Jewish) culture
Regarding the move mentioned above: with other ethnicities, say, Hungarian or Iranian, there are no naming mistakes to be made, because one can use the distinct terms "Christian" and "Muslim" to use when referring to religion. On the other hand, a believer in Judaism is generally called a Jew, just as someone of Jewish ancestry. So, we have things like the title of this article being "Jewish culture" and only the introduction informing us that it's secular - seems like the article should at least renamed to include "Secular", or ideally split. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.107.7.218 (talk) 04:41, 8 December 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree, this article should be called secular Jewish cultureDalai lama ding dong (talk) 12:04, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Judaism Religious Judaism
Judaism is variously described and defined as the history, religion, culture, of the Jewish people. Note that religion is only a part of that definition. Judaism and religion are not identical.. Non religious Jews are not distanced from Judaism, they are only distanced from religion. To suggest otherwise is a clear POV. Dalai lama ding dong (talk) 17:58, 1 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I would recommend "the Jewish religion" rather than "religious Judaism", which sounds like a machine translation from another language. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 19:20, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Do you have any sources for your claim that Judaism isn't a religion? Jayjg (talk) 19:22, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
 * you need to provide sources if you want to claim that Judaism is nothing except a religion, I.e. you need sources to show that Jewish culture and history are not part of Judaism. I am happy to adopt the wording Jewish religion.Dalai lama ding dong (talk) 21:13, 1 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Dalai lama ding dong, please consider reverting yourself until this discussion is completed. I don't want this to become an edit war. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 21:22, 1 March 2012 (UTC)


 * too late, as you will see, the discussion has moved onDalai lama ding dong (talk) 22:45, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Even in the Torah
The word even is very definitely a weasel word in this case, as it implies that it should come as a surprise that 'A range of moral and political views in Judaism is evident in the Torah, and early Jewish history'. From the link given we can end up at Use of grammatical devices such as qualifiers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualifier  The use of even is very definitely a qualifier in this case.Dalai lama ding dong (talk) 14:26, 2 March 2012 (UTC)


 * First, the word "even" is not being used in the same way as the usage at Qualifier. I don't pretend to be a grammar expert, but I think "even" is being used as an adverb.
 * But regardless, I think you're confused about what weasel words are. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 18:38, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree, Malik. Jayjg (talk) 21:45, 2 March 2012 (UTC)


 * It is clearly being used as a grammatical modifier, and it is thus being used as a weasel word. It is clearly not been used as an adverb. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adverb from which comes 'Adverbs are words like slowly, yesterday, now, soon and suddenly. An adverb usually modifies a verb or a verb phrase. It provides information about the manner, place, time, frequency, certainty or other circumstances of the activity denoted by the verb or verb phrase.'  Adverbs do not change the meaning of a noun.  Are you really suggesting that the Torah is being read in an even, i.e. smooth, steady, rhythmical manner?  I do not think that you mean this.  The use of even is therefore as I suggest above, it is being used to indicate that one should be surprised that the Torah does not contain a single, unified moral/political view.  Thus it is being used as a weasel word, thus it should be removed.Dalai lama ding dong (talk) 22:25, 2 March 2012 (UTC)


 * A range of moral and political views in Judaism is evident even in the Torah
 * Evidently nothing is clear to you, Dalai lama ding dong. In the sentence in question, "is evident" is the verb phrase and "even in the Torah" is the adverbial phrase that "provides information about the ... time ... of the activity denoted by the ... verb phrase".
 * Now please read Weasel word and explain how "even" is a weasel word, no matter what part of speech it is. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 22:42, 2 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I actually agree with DLDD that the use of "even" suggests that one should be surprised that this range of views is evident in the Torah. It's not a weasel word because a weasel word is something different, but it is a tiny bit off. Is there something wrong with the phrase "A range of moral and political views in Judaism is evident in the Torah" without "even"? What do you feel is different about that sentence's connotations, other than that it does not suggest that we should be surprised? –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 06:28, 3 March 2012 (UTC)


 * it would be better if I had called this 'words to avoid' which is what it is. The word even does not have to be on a list of weasel words, it is the use of the word that means that it should be removed, it is being used to prime the reader to a certain interpretation of theTorah. Words to avoid is all laid out in the links that I have already given?Dalai lama ding dong (talk) 11:28, 3 March 2012 (UTC)


 * can I please have a reply from MS, and JJ as to whether or not we go with Roscelese's suggestion that this change is acceptable, or do they have any reason to add as to why the word even adds anything useful to this sentence? If you do not agree to the change, then I will refer it for a decision.Dalai lama ding dong (talk) 19:25, 5 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't agree that the word "even" suggests surprise. Rather, the phrase means "A range of moral and political views in Judaism is evident in its early history". Perhaps that's a better way to say it, since two readers seem surprised by the word "even". — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 20:07, 5 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree with the intention behind M K's suggestion, and the view that a range of moral and political views is evident early in the history of Judaism. I would be happy with something close to that wording.  However the rest of the sentence could do with some work.  Inserting M K's wording we get something like.  ''A range of moral and political views is evident early in the history of Judaism, that serves to educate the diversity that is even more apparent among secular Jews who are often strongly influenced by moral beliefs deriving from Jewish scripture, religious practices and traditions.'.  Can we agree on an improved version of the whole sentence while we are there? Suggestions welcome.Dalai lama ding dong (talk) 21:44, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Traditional Jewish Medicine
Why does no page for traditional Jewish medicines exist? Such a topic should be covered under Wikipedia Project Traditional Medicine where a list of organisms and minerals used as medicine can be compiled for anthropological education. Most cultures wikipedia pages; and even the pages for their traditional medicine have barely a few paragraphs of information on traditional medicine and reference few specific organisms and minerals. Please help make the world a kinder place for everyone and contribute to this world pharmacopoeia. CensoredScribe (talk) 17:54, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Why, does the topic exist? –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 01:12, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I think it does. It just has been articulated as a topic, so it is worth investigating for RSS. Sounds good. Personally I have faint memories of my grandmother repeating healing type mantras, that she seemed to have picked up. It seemed influenced by purging, starving fevers, if a pain moves thats a good sign. (sic). Not to belabour a trite cliche, but chicken soup, but not just soup, was considered vital medicine. No dairy products with respiratory illnesses. I got the sense there was a tradition. More formally, the works of medevel Rabbis could be examined. Hillel ben Samuel and Maimonides were physicians. There are probably lots more with a medical training. Remember Saladins personal physician was Maimonides himself! This strong respect for Jewish physicians appears to have been widespread, across culture and continent, especially among the non-Jewish elite. Queen Elizabeth Is personal physician was a Jew, Rodrigo Lopez who tragically was implicated in a court intrque. He was innocent. So Jewish medical knowledge was obviously widespread. Logically there must have been a strong underlying folk tradition to underpin it. This could be an interesting section. Cheers! Irondome (talk) 01:37, 4 September 2013 (UTC)


 * There have been Jewish physicians for ages, and there is certainly medical knowledge in traditional Jewish literature (e.g. the Talmud) but Jewish physicians have not used these remedies for many centuries. A well-known statement by Moelin effectively discourages the use of any Talmudic medical knowledge as its precise indications and content is unclear, and failure would cast doubts on the remainder of the Talmud.
 * Incidentally, medical practice is not usually grouped under "culture". JFW &#124; T@lk  15:54, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Should this be about "Jewish Secularism" rather than Jewish culture
I came to this article seeking to learn about Jewish culture, but it seems almost entirely concerned with secular Jewish culture. Maybe it should be merged into http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_secularism and a new entry on the original topic created.

I'm not a subject expert so I don't think I can contribute to editing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:B000:204:2:0:0:45:97 (talk) 01:09, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Karl Marx et al.
Should these guys really be crammed into a single sentence at the end of the "science" category? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.254.116.222 (talk) 02:18, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Jewish directors
What about Kubrick and Polanski? They are two world-famous Jewish directors, at least one of which has made a Holocaust film (The Pianist, and then arguably the most Kafkaesque aspects of The Tenant, next to its Thomas Mann-like themes, hark back to the shared Jewish experience of both Kafka and Polanski in a predominantly anti-Semitic environment). Kubrick always wanted to make a Holocaust film, but in the end was scotched by Spielberg, but there are scholars such as Geoffrey Cocks who claim The Shining (see the film's article) is the one where he got closest to it and even his own collaborators, when later confronted with the hypothesis, agreed that it was likely that he purposefully put allusions to the Holocaust and his personal interpretations of it into the film. What about the Coen Brothers? They also often prominently feature Jewish characters in their films. --80.187.106.89 (talk) 14:31, 26 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Also, if you list Wittgenstein under Jewish philosophers even though his mother wasn't Jewish, then what about Theodor W. Adorno (only a Jewish father, just like Wittgenstein), Hannah Arendt (both parents Jewish), Max Horkheimer (both parents Jewish), Walter Benjamin (both parents Jewish), Herbert Marcuse (both parents Jewish), and Ernst Cassirer (both parents Jewish, they even were cousins)? All of these either self-defined as Jewish, or at the very least were targeted by anti-Semites due to their ethnic descend, and most of them wrote extensively on anti-Semitism. Nor does any of them hold lesser merit in the halls of philosophy as does Wittgenstein. --80.187.106.89 (talk) 15:45, 26 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Feel free to add more information that seems legitimate to you. Infantom (talk) 19:16, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Jewish civilization
I removed the following equation from the article's first sentence of Jewish culture and Jewish civilization:
 * Jewish culture, also Jewish civilization,

Unfortunately, none of the cited sources include page numbers so I can't verify them. I have, however, read Kaplan's Judaism as a Civilization several times and I believe that it is being misinterpreted or misrepresented. Kaplan's book is a statement that Judaism is a civilization in a sociological sense, as opposed to being "a religion only" (a side-effect of Jewish emancipation that Kaplan considered a "grievous mistake" that "must now be rectified"). Kaplan did not write that Judaism or Jewish secular culture or Jewish culture may be referred to by the phrase "Jewish civilization".

As I wrote, checking the other three sources is hampered by the editor's failure to provide page numbers, but I suspect they have been similarly misinterpreted or misrepresented. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 03:33, 30 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Malik, I believe a more precise term here would be Polity, and suggest that be substituted for "civilization" and the sources restored. Substituting Polity would make perfect sense in the sense of the cited material. Simon Irondome (talk) 03:41, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Ignore the above. Orthopraxy is an excellent term. Irondome (talk) 03:58, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Not for this article, surely! –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 04:00, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
 * What would you suggest? Irondome (talk) 04:03, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
 * That may be part of the problem. This article used to be called "Secular Jewish culture" or "Jewish secular culture". It was renamed "Jewish culture", but I think most if not all of the content is still about secular culture. To label as Jewish civilization (or even Jewish culture, to be honest) what the article describes is a serious misrepresentation. I recognize that, and I'm a secular Jew who feels his culture is described in this article. I can only imagine what a religious Jew might think of this article, which says nothing about her/his culture. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 04:26, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Then perhaps a BOLD return to the articles original title may be a viable solution. I am not familiar with the discussion or consensus which has resulted in the present article title however. Irondome (talk) 04:44, 30 July 2016 (UTC)


 * First, there's no contradiction, religious Jews may identify with secular culture as as well. As much as secular Jews may identify with religious elements. The article does mention religious contribution (philosophy, literature) and some of the secular culture was/is inspired by religious influence. The article is not restricted only to secular culture and is available for anyone who wants to add more religious related material. Disassociation of religious and secular culture from one article would be a mistake.
 * As for civilization, it may be misrepresented with regard to Jewish culture, however all the sources refer to Jews as a civilization. Perhaps a separate article about Jewish civilization (which includes culture as an element) might be a better option. Infantom (talk) 12:22, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
 * What would such an article contain? –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 19:11, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

*Why* was/is Jewish influence in Theatre/Cinema so huge?
Are there historical reasons to explain it just as there are to explain the disproportionate Jewish involvement in finance or in the clothing trade? Were there bans on other areas which made theatre and cinema more attractive to them? (I assume that Jewish influence in cinema was a follow on from their influence in theatre - is that a correct assumption?). Thanks. 80.111.140.140 (talk) 21:30, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
 * There's lots of serious and popular writing on this topic: one very noteworthy book on the topic is Neal Gabler's prize-winning book An Empire of Their Own: How the Jews Invented Hollywood. --Arxiloxos (talk) 21:46, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

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 * Hannah arendt-150x150.jpg

Western Culture Cat
I reverted this removal from The Human Trumpet Solo who has in the past been on a vendetta of keeping anything Western out of Jewish related articles. His thinking is that Judaism is only a Middle Eastern culture/ethnicity, and that if you are Jewish, you are only Middle Eastern. I obviously do not think that is correct. Sir Joseph (talk) 04:32, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

"The Human Trumpet Solo who has in the past been on a vendetta of keeping anything Western out of Jewish related articles"

^This is against WP:AGF and WP:No personal attacks. Please strike this line.

I removed that category because it is, from a holistic point of view, inaccurate. The Jewish sojourn in Europe is only one part of Jewish history and culture, not the sum. Placing Jewish culture under Western culture ignores both pre- and post- diaspora culture and effectively airbrushes non-Ashkenazi Jews out of the picture. No one could reasonably argue that Mizrahi Jews are "Western".The Human Trumpet Solo (talk) 05:24, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

"His thinking is that Judaism is only a Middle Eastern culture/ethnicity, and that if you are Jewish, you are only Middle Eastern."

This is a strawman argument. I never said Jews are "only" Middle Eastern. I said Jews are a Middle Eastern people (because that is....you know, true), but I never said Jews were "only" that.The Human Trumpet Solo (talk) 05:36, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Jews are part of western culture and your are erasing that. Nobody said that there are other Jews that are not part of western culture just that there are Jews that are part of western culture. Sir Joseph (talk) 05:53, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
 * this is about Jewish culture and it's impact on Western culture. Not sure why you can't see the distinction. Sir Joseph (talk) 06:03, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
 * The article is about Jewish culture. Period. Nothing more. If it was about Jewish culture's impact on Western culture, the article's title would reflect that.
 * Jewish culture had a tremendous impact on Western culture. No one denies that. But if you want to argue they are one and the same (or classify it as such), you'll need to provide reliable citations. One could make an equally strong case for including Islamic civilization here, but something tells me that wouldn't go over well.The Human Trumpet Solo (talk) 06:11, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
 * well, you are also wrong because the western world is exactly what you are saying it should include. Western world doesn't just mean Europe, if you would have ppl looked before you reverted, the template for Western World has a picture of Jerusalem in it, because that is part of the western world. So I'm really not sure why you took out the template. Judaism is not an Eastern world culture, that would be Buddhism or similar. Sir Joseph (talk) 06:40, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, the cat should be kept, without prejudice to having other ones. Johnbod (talk) 12:38, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
 * So include both Western and Eastern culture, then. Only problem is, there's no template for Eastern or Middle Eastern culture on here.The Human Trumpet Solo (talk) 03:27, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Fine in theory, though at present the article seems to cover only Jewish culture in the Western world - rather a weakness of it. Johnbod (talk) 03:33, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
 * "Western world doesn't just mean Europe, if you would have ppl looked before you reverted, the template for Western World has a picture of Jerusalem in it, because that is part of the western world." I will agree to include the template only on these grounds, but nothing more.The Human Trumpet Solo (talk) 03:32, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

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Rather drastic cuts
...by an editor who seems to do a lot of that on Jewish-topic articles. For the record. Johnbod (talk) 16:19, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

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Stealth link to Return to Zion in the lede
Does anyone have a good argument against removing this link? I would strongly contest the suggestion that Jewish culture began 300-odd years after the Talmud was written, for instance. –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 02:29, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

What does "CSJO" stand for? (red link...)
In the last paragraph of the "History" section (at least, in the "18:25, 11 January 2022‎" version of the article, ... which is the "current revision"), the second-to-last hyperlink is a 'red' link.]

There is some evidence (see, e.g., the SRP ["search results page"]
 * https://www.google.com/search?q=the+Congress+of+Secular+Jewish+Organizations

e.g.) that the "translation" of the acronym "CSJO" into the name "Congress of Secular Jewish Organizations" might have come from a source at https://www.idealist.org/en/nonprofit/a4f7d51183414a009aff0cb8ad2e74ac-congress-of-secular-jewish-organizations-east-setauket on the web site of "idealist.org" ("see also" https://www.idealist.org/en/about for more info about "idealist dot org" itself.)

However, according to the web site of the "CSJO" itself, (which has a URL of http://www.csjo.org/ ... both according to the above-mentioned SRP, AND according to the way it is "linked to", from the above mentioned "source" on the "idealist dot org" web site) ... it appears that CSJO actually stands for something else ("Cultural and Secular Jewish Organization").

Note that the word "Organization" is not plural in the version from the CSJO's own web site. It appears that the "translation" seen in the red link may have come primarily -- (maybe only?) -- from the "idealist dot org" web site.

IMHO, that paragraph (the one containing that red link) should be updated. Any comments? --Mike Schwartz (talk) 22:24, 18 January 2022 (UTC)


 * I think if an organization is not notable enough to have its own article, putting it in the same line as the SHJ and the Arbeter Ring is uncalled for. That said, as well, there's a lot of weirdness in that section vis-a-vis explaining that it relates to secular culture in particular when that's not the ostensible purpose of the article - am I remembering correctly that this article used to be titled "secular Jewish culture"? –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 00:21, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Is Judaism a non faith-based religion ?
I mean obviously in Judaism, there are lots of things that are in the class of orthopraxy, but this really excludes the faith part in Judaism, once faith is defined in Wikipedia as a confidence or trust in a thing, person or concept and some classical orthodox jews thinkers like Maimonides write about the principles of faith in Judaism, that includes the belief in God, the coming of the Messiah and revelation, mainly in prevalen in Orthodox Judaism today. Besides that the use of Judaism without specify if it's talking about Orthodox, Reform, Conservative, Reconstrucionist or Humanist doesn't generalize the assumption that all jewish denominations acts by the same principles, what is wrong, once Orthodox Judaism calls for conversion if the mother of one isn't jewish while others denominations don't, that way ignoring the ethnic definitions of "Who is a jew ?". So what i'm trying to do in this exaustive and boring argumentation is to argue for the removal of the part that says that "Judaism is not a faith-based religion", once this part in my opinion isn't totally certain and must have more discussion, which includes more sources and references, to be accepted in the article.

Sorry, for stealing your time in a long and exaustive argumentation that maybe doesn't changes anything. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123Done2x (talk • contribs) 20:13, 6 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Adepts of Judaism have faith (i.e. beliefs). But Judaism is not a purity-of-faith-based religion like Christianity and Islam, wherein slightest heterodoxy dooms one to hell. tgeorgescu (talk) 21:02, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Judaism is interpreted differently by different Jews. Some consider it merely cultural, others are not religious at all and still consider themselves Jewish. Its commonly referred to as an ethnoreligious cultural group. Homerethegreat (talk) 14:58, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

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Chess has been described as the "Jewish national game"
List of Jewish chess players אריה ענבר (talk) 20:33, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Why no mention of Zionism?
It seems a little strange that a section on Zionism isn't in here? Or a mention of the extremist segments of Judaism. It should be added, but I am not the one to do it. 174.141.198.10 (talk) 11:18, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Removed unreferenced paragraph in History section
Hello, I have removed an unreferenced paragraph because of the Verifiability policy. All content must be verifiable. The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and it is satisfied by providing an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution. 2601:204:F100:83B0:E1C4:4964:FC7F:5162 (talk) 11:34, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The material wasn't specifically cited, but was accurate and not controversial. You seem to be going through articles related to Jews and deleting unreferenced material "on principle", even when it is accurate and not controversial. Perhaps tagging would be more helpful. The point of an encyclopedia is to provide accurate information, so even more helpful would be finding sources that support the provided information (or if it is inaccurate, fixing the statements with sources that say something different). Jayjg (talk) 15:07, 28 April 2024 (UTC)