Talk:Jewish education

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Disputed
These refer, however, specifically to the commandments to love God. The obligation to teach Judaism to one's children is therefore rabbinic in origin. Not everyone agrees with this (e.g. Rashi). Actually IMO most people would not agree with this. eeemess 11:11, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Yep, the Shema refers to 'these words which I command you today'. You don't need to be a Rabbi to infer that that means all of Torah should be passed on, rather than the one specific commandment.Nomist 22:17, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Please define "these words" and "today". On what grounds are you saying that they refer to the Torah as a whole? Eeemess, can you show me the mitzvah in the Chinnuch and Sefer ha-Mitzvos? JFW | T@lk  23:14, 2 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Number 22 in Maimonides. Are we seeing ? ;) ems (not to be confused with the nonexistant pre-dating account by the same name) 16:07, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

If I hadn't heard this observation personally from a rather prominent British lamdan I would not have believed it. But there you have it. JFW | T@lk  23:30, 2 May 2006 (UTC)


 * All of Torah was in theory given at the same time at Sinai, no? Thus if it's talking about all words given 'today', it's all of Torah. That's how it seems to me (not that I subscribe to Torah minHaShamayim in any case :-) Nomist 00:33, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

A few things
I wouldn't presume to be expert on this, but a few things I'd mention:


 * The commandment to pass down the story of Passover at the seder, a pretty specific command to pass a piece of religious knowledge down the generations
 * The present-day after-school "Hebrew schools" common in the U.S. at least, especially as a way of learning enough Hebrew for a bar mitzvah.
 * Where and when governments have subsidized Jewish education. There is at least one interesting case where the generally conservative and anti-Semitic government of Imperial Russia subsidized at least one of the more liberal yeshivas, the one at Zhytomyr (not, by the way, currently mentioned in our article on Zhytomyr). - Jmabel | Talk 06:01, 22 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Hebrew schools = Talmud Torah. Your example of "vehigadeta le-vincha" (concerning the seder) refers to one specific commandment, not to the Torah as a whole!


 * The Russians supporting "yeshivas" has been well documented, not just in Zhytomir but in Vilna just the same; Adam ha-Cohen tried to attract Israel Lipkin Salanter, who declined and fled Vilna to retreat in Kovno to avoid further pressure. JFW | T@lk  23:14, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

The Institute for Informal Jewish Education
We are being told that this body is apparently so important that it needs its own section in this article. I cannot imagine that this in institute should get such a detailed coverage while not a word is spent on any other similar institutions elsewhere in the USA, in Europe and Israel.

Could I suggest:
 * Expanding the content on Brandeis University
 * Starting a separate article on the Institute that might or might not survive AFD

Either way, please don't use this article to discuss a single institution. JFW | T@lk  17:14, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Camp Ramah
added specific content on Camp Ramah. The addition gave no explanation why this network of camps needed specific mention, compared to other camps, and I therefore removed it. Gilabrand has now returned the content with the request that I not remove "sourced material". In fact, I think there is no point giving extensive detail about one particular organisation unless there is particular reason to do so. I therefore think that for WP:WEIGHT purposes, the single example should either be indicated as such or followed by others. JFW | T@lk  17:02, 15 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I would think that adding information to this skeletal article, which basically says nothing of any value about Jewish education aside from a few platitudes, would be welcomed. I fail to understand your objection to sourced material about a very prominent network of summer camps, preceded by a statement about the importance of summer camps in Jewish education.--Geewhiz (talk) 17:31, 15 September 2010 (UTC)


 * The quality of the rest of the article is not a reason to single out one particular organisation without an explanation. JFW | T@lk  18:46, 15 September 2010 (UTC)


 * No articles on Wikipedia are ever complete. Information is added bit by bit, and the same is true here. If you have sourced information about another network of camps that promotes Jewish education in a notable way, please add it. Same goes for all the other sections that need filling out--Geewhiz (talk) 19:20, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

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no Jewish colleges
Why don't you explain why there are nearly no Jewish colleges or universities in the US, or most anywhere else? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.28.102.27 (talk) 16:02, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

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Discussion: What belongs exclusively in this article vs. Jewish day school?
There is some overlap, but I'm curious if there's any consensus as to what information primarily belongs where? Contributor613 (talk) 20:44, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

References concerning Hasidic yeshivas
I don't have the time, but for someone who does here are some references, which can be used as sources for adding information to this article, concerning the dearth of secular education in Hasidic yeshivas. All the lohud links are by Adrienne Sanders, a rare secular reporter who actually understands enough of the topic to provide quite nuanced and accurate reporting. Note that all of the following concern various Hasidic schools in particular.
 * https://www.lohud.com/story/news/investigations/2015/09/16/east-ramapo-yeshivas/32482729/
 * https://www.lohud.com/story/news/investigations/2015/09/17/tales-yoel-falkowitz/32509727/
 * https://www.lohud.com/story/news/investigations/2015/09/17/crippling-education-eisenberger/32521317/
 * https://www.lohud.com/story/news/2016/01/26/adrienne-sanders-appear-pbs/79346452/
 * https://www.lohud.com/story/news/investigations/2016/04/20/east-ramapo-education/82519112/
 * https://www.lohud.com/story/opinion/2016/04/21/lohudreacts-yeshiva-students-path-college/83333548/
 * Education indirectly addressed in this lengthy article, but provides a window to a particular Hasidic community: https://www.lohud.com/story/news/investigations/2015/11/05/new-square-rules/74471378/

See also: https://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/2016/01/29/january-29-2016-ultra-orthodox-yeshiva-controversy/28831/

Unfortunately, these are just reliable sources documenting the nature of what Hasidic secular education there is or isn't in America. As noted below in Talk:Jewish education, there is much more that requires discussion in this article. Contributor613 (talk) 23:25, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Inaccurate portrayal of Haredi education outside Israel
It's important to note that this article is in serious need of accurate, nuanced, and even basic details concerning Haredi education.

As it pertains to Israel people (too) often conveniently use the "Haredi" umbrella-term without specifying whether it is Hasidic or non-Hasidic Jews being referred to. As it pertains to the absence of secular education, this may very well be correct in Israel as I am not aware of a fundamental difference between the different groups in this matter. However, it is absolutely incorrect for this article to make any reference to Haredi Jews in America without specifying whether they're non-Hasidic (also known as Lithuanian) or Hasidic, the reason being that non-Hasidic yeshivas in America (probably other countries outside Israel as well) overwhelmingly offer state-compliant secular education and although the quality of this education will obviously vary from school to school, variation also exists in non-Jewish public schools as well. In America (and as said, probably other countries as well), the non-Hasidic Hareidi schools do provide secular education such that a graduate of this non-Hasidic yeshiva system will be able to be accepted to college right out of high school if so desired.

In the area of nuance I just made an edit noting the important distinction between Haredi Jews in Israel and America, but someone needs to devote time to expansion of the wiki article (and more importantly, with supporting sources). since much nuanced information remains unsaid.
 * For example, no mention is made of Ultra-Orthodox non-Hasidic Rabbis advocating against their high school graduates enrolling in college (not to be confused with enrollment years after high school where a good number of non-Hasidic Haredi, or Ultra-Orthodox, adults will be found attending college, whether state colleges or private universities, including those such as Touro College).
 * Another thing that should be detailed in an article of this nature is the philosophical and sociological tension in the non-Hasidic Haredi community in America which enables secular education to continue to be provided in their non-Hasidic yeshivas, i.e. the general community believing secular education to be essential to a yeshiva, as opposed to prominent Lithuanian Rabbis who share the ideological aversion of their Israeli counterparts but continue to offer secular education since they know that 90-99% of the community would refuse to send their kids to a Hasidic-like yeshiva lacking secular education (if I recall correctly Rabbi Moshe Feinstein has a responsa making this essential point).
 * No mention is made in this article of the American Ultra-Orthodox non-Hasidic public (and even many rabbis among them) having an educational philosophy far more similar to that of Maimonides than to the Israeli Haredi public.
 * Similarly (skip to below paragraph on "accuracy" if you want to avoid subjectivity, as what I'm presenting now is facts interspersed with my interpretation), no mention is made of the organizational American non-Hasidic (Lituanian) rabbinic response to recent calls for increased secular education in Hasidic schools, where in response they disingenuously pointed to their own non-Hasidic yeshivas as providing secular education, in an attempt (probably successful) to shield Hasidic schools from scrutiny amid calls to provide basic secular education (see Young Advocates for Fair Education). These non-hasidic rabbis could have easily said that their educational system provides students with sufficient secular education for (if not encouragement for) college attendance and that the problem lies with the Hasidic yeshivas alone, but they didn't; instead, in their response they appear to have leveraged the general public's unfamiliarity with the fundamentally different Hasidic and non-Hasidic educational systems, and they highlighted the plethora of non-Hasidic yeshivas which boast decent secular education programs, in an ostensible attempt to debunk claims that secular education is lacking in Haredi yeshivas. The reason for this deflection away from Hasidic yeshivas is not just political (Agudath Israel of America and Torah Umesorah each represent a partnership of the Hasidic and non-Hasidic public in general [for the former] as well as yeshivas [for the latter]), but because many non-Hasidic rabbis admire their Hasidic counterparts for their success in standing against calls for secular education, as opposed to the non-Hasidic yeshivas which continue to provide secular education due to the prevailing public demand which runs counter to prominent strains of thought in the educational philosophy of non-Hasidic rabbinic authorities that don't see secular education in a positive light.
 * Edit: To expand on a point just touched upon (unrelated to this wiki article so skip to below paragraph if uninterested), it's worth noting that despite the Ultra-Orthodox group PEARLS NY comprising many non-Hasidic Jews (who themselves got the secular education that Hasidic schools deprive their students of), their activist reporting (circa 2019) was that "Orthodox" communities were being stereotyped and targeted, and they failed to differentiate between the targeted Hasidic schools and the non-Hasidic schools which don't suffer from a dearth of secular education. Reasons for this include the following: 1) They see the focus on Jewish private school education as an infringement on their educational autonomy; it's a slippery slope downward from Hasidic to Orthodox once government steps in to dictate education (a feeling shared by Catholic schools). 2) Getting along with Hasidic Jews despite religious and ideological differences, a philosophy of live and let live predominates (unfortunately they focus less on the deleterious outcomes of this philosophy taken to its conclusion). 3) Their representative or "community advocate" may, depending on their personal beliefs, identify with non-Hasidic Ultra-Orthodox Rabbis in Israel opposed to secular education, feeling that even though non-Hasidic parents in America won't stand for such opposition it constitutes a worthy endeavor to "protect" and shild the Hasidic groups in America who were actually successful in keeping secular education out from their educational system. One might say this is similar to Metzitzah B'Peh in circumcision in that even Orthodox Rabbis that do not suction blood with the mouth may defend the practice since they are both fearful of the slippery slope that comes into play when Jews cave to government intervention and also are of the philosophy that whoever believes that suctioning by mouth is religiously required should be allowed to observe their religious beliefs (unfortunately, turning a blind eye to Herpes transmission). Contributor613 (talk) 23:50, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

In the area of accuracy, this article also needs improvement. For example, this wiki currently makes the absurd statement that "As of 2012, education in the Haredi community was strictly segregated by sex" although separate schooling has existed in the Haredi community well before 2012, going back decades if not even longer. Naturally, the incorrect information isn't accompanied by any reference so perhaps the first step for editing this article would be beefing it up with supporting sources.

In the area of basic information, this article lacks significant information on Haredi education of girls, where secular education is often offered both in American and Israeli schools from the elementary to high school level, whether non-Hasidic or Hasidic (unlike the situation for boys). Notable mention might even be made of Satmar Hasidic girls schools which, if memory serves me right, do not teach certain things like Bible to their students per the direction of the Satmer rebbe.

Until someone addresses the glaring deficiencies in this article, it would well deserve a header-type label along the lines of informing readers that information isn't backed up by sources yet, and that much of the information presented concerning Jewish education in the last century is bare-bones and woefully unreliable. Unfortunately, while I have some interest, I have not the time to give this article the rewrite it requires. Contributor613 (talk) 20:48, 31 July 2020 (UTC)