Talk:Jewish exodus from the Muslim world

Quick Grammar error/Typo
1. Could an authorised editor please make the following 2/1 character correction in the article lede? Sentence currently flips "direction" in its final third -- jarring for native English speakers. Thanks in advance.

NOW: "In total, of the 900,000 Jews who left Arab and other Muslim countries, 600,000 settled in the new state of Israel, and 300,000 immigrated to France and the United States."

BETTER AS: "~ 300,000 emigrated ~" Tom Segev's quote (footnote 300)

2. "if a man as well connected and powerful as Shafiq Ades could he eliminated by the state" - change "he" to "be"

Requested move 26 February 2024

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Withdrawn by nominator; clear consensus against. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 17:51, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Jewish exodus from the Muslim world → Jewish expulsion and flight from the Muslim world – "Expulsion and flight" is a neutral description of what occurred, while the current title is a euphemism. It would also be WP:CONSISTENT with 1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight and the RM that moved it to that title from "1948 Palestinian exodus" - the reasons for that move apply equally to this. BilledMammal (talk) 04:33, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Note: WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 11:40, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Note: WikiProject International relations has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 11:41, 26 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Support, exodus has an Iron Age biblical meaning that is not appropriate here. Abductive  (reasoning) 13:02, 26 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Comment WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not an argument, the circumstances are distinct and consistency is therefore not required. For a start, the opening for this article says "migrated, fled, or were expelled" whereas the other says "fled from their homes or were expelled" and the other was in 1948 whereas the events here took place over a long period of time. Therefore, if there should be a new title, it should include the word migration and a date range needs to be established. What needs to be determined by reference to reliable sources is the relevant %'s, migrated, fled, expelled and when did these occur rather than an obvious POV push to match the other title with spurious argumentation. Selfstudier (talk) 13:15, 26 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose the title should be as neutral as possible and inline with how the RS describe the events (such as the "Jewish migration from the Arab world" and the "emigration of the Jews from the Arab World"). While those sourced common names are about the Arab world, I see no reason why they shouldn't apply to the "Muslim world". The various reasons for the migration should be discussed in each relevant section. M.Bitton (talk) 13:53, 26 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose - I do not think "expulsion and flight" is an NPOV way to describe the event. Yes, Morris 2008 says "emigrated, were intimidated into flight, or were expelled." But Pappe 2004 and 2022 AFAICS just calls that "immigration" without the "intimidated" or "expelled" part. And I just checked Mark Tessler's 2009 book, pp. 309-311:
 * The take away is that we should not equate the Nakba with Jewish emigration from Arab countries post-1948. Levivich (talk) 17:46, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Oppose the false equivalence behind this proposal. As in Levivich's quotation, it is simply not true that the two mass population movements were similar. Zerotalk 00:05, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Levivich and Zero. Very obvious attempt at a moral equivalence, and one that the sources do not support. I would support Jewish migration from the Muslim world. The claim of consistency with a completely different topic is one that fails even the most cursory glances. This was not a population largely chased out by militias/armed forces. There is no consistency required between completely different topics. Even the order of words here betrays the POV of the proposal, there are very few instances of expulsions of Jews from any of the Muslim/Arab states. And the claim that the reasons for that move apply equally to this is so obviously specious that not even an attempt at justifying the claim is made. In fact, the quote from the Tessler brought by Levivich attributes such an argument to "Israeli propagandists".  nableezy  - 00:12, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose. "Flight" carries an inappropriate connotation, considering that not all Jews who left Muslim lands "fled" them. The current title is appropriate. Zanahary (talk) 19:02, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose. This is a false equivalent as Zero suggests. Hogo-2020 (talk) 06:16, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose I'm not sure this move makes much more sense than calling large-scale Jewish migration from the Russian Empire (in response to, among other things, pogroms and discrimination) circa 1900 "flight and expulsion of Jews from Russia". (t &#183; c)  buidhe  09:49, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose Why would article titles on two seperate concepts need to be consistent? What an utterly ridiculous and intellectually dishonest argument. This is so obviously a WP:POINTY proposal designed to advance a certain POV. AusLondonder (talk) 16:48, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose as factually incorrect. Per Talk:Jewish exodus from the Muslim world/Archive 3, I have been looking to verify the use of the term "expulsions" for the departure of Jews across all the Arab and Muslim countries for a decade without success. Across the entire Arab and Muslim world, only the 1956–1957 exodus and expulsions from Egypt (post-Suez Crisis purge of the Mutamassirun) appears to have included a small number of expulsions of Jews (alongside a large number of Europeans), at least some of whom would not have been Egyptian citizens. There is no evidence of expulsions from any other Arab or Muslim country, despite some propagandistic claims to the contrary. Onceinawhile (talk) 17:47, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

2024 Jewish Population In Arab countries
Ref:https://www.jewishrefugees.org.uk/tag/jews-of-lebanon
 * algeria 0
 * egypt   6   (3 Known alive)
 * Iran    8000
 * Iraq    3
 * Lebanon 20
 * Libya   0
 * Morocco 1000
 * Syria   3
 * Tunisa  1000
 * Yemen   1

Note the Jewish Population in Turkey is about 14,500 72.49.135.188 (talk) 12:30, 8 April 2024 (UTC)


 * That's an unreliable source (it's a blog). M.Bitton (talk) 12:51, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Last paragraph in opening text
I don't understand why this line is being removed

"sometimes positing a "malicious Zionist conspiracy" to explain the exodus."

It was apparently removed for being POV but the main reference supporting it as an actual scholar and professor Philip Mendes, who has spent many years researching the Jewish expulsion from the MENA region. The main reference also has another 10 or so sources supporting it.

Lotsofsalt (talk) 10 April 2024 (UTC)


 * 1) You have been blocked for edit warring over this. 2) It has been reverted by 3 different editors: (that you personally attacked in one of your edit summaries),  and myself. 3) You violated 1RR again. M.Bitton (talk) 11:49, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

The reference does not contain the number 24.000

 * What I think should be changed (format using textdiff):


 * Why it should be changed:
 * The current linked reference does not contain the number 24,000.
 * The Jews Of Lebanon, Between Coexistence And Conflict, second edition in page 6 puts it at 5,200: "Thus, in 1948 the number of Jews had increased to 5,200 and by 1951 to 9,000, 6,961 of whom were Lebanese citizens."
 * Sources close to the Near east report and AIPAC put it at 20,000, for example the jewish virtual library (JVL is WP:GUNREL though) or Myths and Facts 1976 A Concise Record of the Arab-Israeli Conflict (page 84)
 * This jewcy opinion article says "the numbers seem to be closer to 10 – 14,000 than 24,000". It also mentions another now deleted opinion article which seems the source of the 24k claim.


 * References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):

Bowad91017 (talk) 02:15, 16 May 2024 (UTC)


 * for the 1932 census numbers, it's in the Al Jazeera article here: Uncovering Lebanon’s Jewish past | Arts and Culture | Al Jazeera Bowad91017 (talk) 01:35, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @M.Bitton Hi, since you replied to the other edit-request in this article. Could you please remove the 24k in the section for lebanon?
 * Here is the reference used in the current version of the article: Beirut’s last Jews (ynetnews.com) It doesn't contain 24 at all. Bowad91017 (talk) 22:59, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Having reviewed the sources, I can confirm that the current source doesn't support the 24k figure. As for the proposed change, I'm not convinced that the 20k figure should be mentioned since the source is not strong, the jump from 3.5k to 20k in 16 years (without explanation) seems implausible and the claim is contradicted by two recent RS (Kirsten E. Schulze and Al-Jazeera). What is probably worth mentioning is the fact that the population increased in the 1950s due to the wave of immigration from Syria. Here's what I suggest:
 * I'll leave it here for you and others to review. M.Bitton (talk) 13:29, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I'll leave it here for you and others to review. M.Bitton (talk) 13:29, 30 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: Per M. Bitton.  thetechie@enwiki  :  ~/talk/  $  03:11, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * ✅ I implemented the above proposal. Feel free to revert, but please, do ping me if you do. M.Bitton (talk) 20:34, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

2024 Jewish population of Yemen
Yemenite Jews says:

> As of 2024, only 5 Jew remained in Yemen, with one of them being Levi Marhabi.

Cites: https://www.ynetnews.com/article/sj7dfbxic

The population table should be updated accordingly. Miraj31415 (talk) 05:42, 6 July 2024 (UTC)