Talk:Jewish fascism

Merge proposal
I propose merging Jewish fascism into Revisionist Maximalism. The majority of this article is simply summarizing other articles, particularly this one but also Otzma Yehudit.A. Rosenberg (talk) 14:48, 21 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Support merge and redirect, this article is an unnecessary fork. Otzma Yehudit is linked to the topic only by reference in op-eds, which does not justify a dedicated article. Marokwitz (talk) 11:55, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose Jewish fascism is a wider conceptual category than that particular political movement and deserves its own article 49.183.0.118 (talk) 09:17, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose: The topic here is a broad political framework, and the target being suggested is a specific political movement. The relationship between the two pages is parent and child, and the page clearly states that the target is just an early example of the broader subject. The application of the term to the Kach movement is another piece of currently absent discourse. The page is presently just a start-class encyclopedia entry and needs expanding. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:11, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Weak Support per Marokwitz to allow for a more nuanced discussion in the new article, but amenable to a different solution if one is found FortunateSons (talk) 14:08, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Support merge and redirect also pero Marokwitz and the point that this is an unnecessary fork. Hogo-2020 (talk) 06:47, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose Jewish fascism is a long-running movement with many iterations and facets, those include revisionist maximalism but other streams exist and folding them under maximalism obfuscates the differences. Majdal.cc (talk) 18:37, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose This is a relevant and growing topic, given its history and the current political climate where some increasingly disturbing views are being aired openly by politicians in Israel Mrfuzzydwagginz (talk) 17:53, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Support Most of these comments you are referring to would regardless be better classified as Kahanist than "Jewish Fascism," as fascism has many distinguishing aspects besides nationalism or bigotry. So I would consider this point in particular moot. A. Rosenberg (talk) 14:48, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I think one problem with this article is it's unclear whether there is a genuine connection between Israel in the 2020s and the first movement. The recent autocratic power grab in Israel was only compared to more well known movements. There's a gap in the middle. MWQs (talk) 02:08, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose. This article is poorly written right now but it can be rewritten to one that properly examines both radical early Zionists, Kahanists, and potentially Jewish supporters of white nationalism in the US. HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 23:04, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose This topic has a long history and the term "Jewish Fascism" needs its own article. 2A01:5EC0:7027:93E8:15F1:4CF3:F15D:7DF7 (talk) 18:26, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Support. The renaming proposal is clear to point. Outside of light use by the Revisionist Maximalists, the term "Jewish fascism" finds no basis outside of external accusation, which I do not believe achieves the threshold for an independent article supporting the term (most especially when historical fascists proudly used the term and that is not the case here). Mistamystery (talk) 18:34, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
 * This is extremely incoherent. First, this is a merger proposal, not a renaming one. Secondly, subjects are not named based on what they call themselves. That is not, and will never be, a naming criterion (let alone a criterion for whether a subject qualifies as having standalone notability). Thirdly, it's rather by the by, but fascism is a term derived from Latin by way of Italian politics in the 1910s. But non-Italian groups did not call themselves this; they called themselves "national socialists" and the like, so I'm not sure where this idea that fascists call themselves "fascists" even comes from frankly. Although Smotrich has incidentally noted his indifference to being called a fascist. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:08, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
 * This is not a renaming proposal, but certainly much of this article could be moved to the other. A. Rosenberg (talk) 20:52, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The name is relevant to the scope and the scope is relevant to the merge. I think "fascist Jewish nationalism" would be a slight improvement. This would exclude Jewish American supporters of white nationalism, who somebody mentioned above. I have not seen all three words together, but fascist and Jewish nationalist are both terms I've seen used to describe the same people. MWQs (talk) 14:51, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose - If it gets merged with anything it should be merged with far-right politics in Israel, but that would need a new title, neither of the current titles quite fit, not everything here is Israeli and not everything there is fascist, they don't overlap entirely. A separate article might be warranted, but a different name might help define the scope. MWQs (talk) 14:35, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

added content
I have copied over some of the most relevant material from far-right politics in Israel (the pairs of big deletions and additions in the edit history were me moving sections into order, sorry I forgot to put edit summaries on those). I also included some material that was recently removed from that page, it was not notable in that context, but is possibly relevant here. We can try to work this into a separate article, and then if they end up overlapping too much, merge them? MWQs (talk) 14:35, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I edited my comment above because I realised some of it made no sense. MWQs (talk) 16:59, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

items of interest, possible sub topics, etc.
I will probably come back and add more to this thread as I go.

items of interest
 * Wiki Ed/Middlebury College/Zionism and the Roads Not Taken 1880-1948 (Spring 2023) (found on Talk:Revisionist Maximalism)

Possible sub topics: I am not sure whether to include these? Are they relevant? Do they risk derailing the page? MWQs (talk) 16:59, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

A small gang of "Jewish neonazis" in Tel Aviv. They were Jewish Israelis who had recently immigrated from Russia. They seem to already have a page: Patrol 36. It got a enough press coverage to warrant that page, but the press coverage was all just a few days in 2007, another day when they were sentenced. It seems to have been a weird and shocking story more than a big important story? Not part of a broader movement? MWQs (talk) 17:18, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The Economist says that only 1 of the 8 was Jewish, which makes me wonder why he was in the gang, and why the other 7 were in Israel? But almost certainly not relevant here except as background reading on Israeli immigration law? MWQs (talk) 17:34, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Israel's laws against mixed marriages, and related laws? MWQs (talk) 17:34, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

The Huwara pogrom / Huwara rampage? MWQs (talk) 17:34, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

The basic nationality law of 2019, ethno-nationalism? MWQs (talk) 13:34, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

page name
Would "Fascist Jewish nationalism" be a better page name?


 * It is somewhat more precise? and that helps decide which topics above should be included? (e.g. white supremacists who are Jewish don't count)


 * It is also somewhat less provocative?

I think in both cases the improvement is because it more clearly refers to a specific ideology or set of related ideologies, whereas the current title can be read as "Jewish people who are fascists"? MWQs (talk) 13:51, 27 May 2024 (UTC)


 * @Iskandar323, it looks like you started the page with the current title? Do you think my suggestion would be an improvement? would you have any objections to a change? MWQs (talk) 05:02, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @MWQs: I'm afraid I do have objections. The current title is a term that actually finds currency in extant books and works of scholarship. The proposed term is both tautologous (fascism is inherently understood to serve nationalistic functions) and finds no usage in extant books or scholarship. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:13, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Iskandar323, Can you include some quotes that use the term? You can add them to existing references with the "quote =" field. If it's in hard copy books we should try to find samples on Google Books or full copies on Web Archive so it is verifiable. MWQs (talk) 06:43, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Iskandar323, Which movements are included in that label in sources? Maybe the modern stuff I've added belongs back on far-right politics in Israel? But you brought up Smotrich yourself? And Smotrich offended Jordan by using the same old map as some of the pre-48 movements. The modern extremists look like a continuation of related movements in the British Mandate era? Are they? MWQs (talk) 07:44, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Nationalism: I agree "nationalism" is inherently part of fascism, but it's informative to include, because fascist (insult) is used so broadly that a lot of people associate it with socialism or globalisation or other things which are almost the opposite of the narrow definition of fascism that this page is about. MWQs (talk) 07:44, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * "Fascist Jewish nationalism" is the most precise description the topic. I've not got any examples of all three words in that order, but "fascism" and "Jewish nationalism" are both used to describe modern extenders like Smotrich and Ben Gvir, and sometimes Netenyahu. MWQs (talk) 07:44, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Looking for pages with similar names
conclusion = inconclusive ? Similarly named pages exist, but only for far less controversial cases, far less controversial given fascism is defined by the movements in Christian majority Europe.

Pages that exist
 * Christian fascism
 * Arab fascism exists, but it's a 6 week old stub.
 * Italian fascism
 * British fascism
 * Clerical fascism

Redirect to a specific movement:
 * Hindu fascism redirects to Hindutva
 * Fascism in India also redirects to Hindutva


 * German fascism redirects to Nazism
 * Esoteric fascism redirects to Esoteric Nazism


 * Spanish fascism redirects to Falangism
 * Croatian fascism redirects to Ustaše

Redirects to "Fascism in…" or something else general. I was leaning towards changing "Jewish fascism" when I found "History of far-right movements in France" then I found "British fascism" and now I'm back to unsure. MWQs (talk) 18:04, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Islamic fascism redirecta to Islamofascism.
 * French fascism redirects to History of far-right movements in France.
 * Japanese fascism redirects to Fascism in Asia the sub section for Japan includes 4 movements.
 * Russian fascism redirects to the Fascism in Russia a disambiguation page with about ten links including: Neo-Nazism in Russia and Extremist nationalism in Russia which itself redirects to Russian nationalism.
 * Austrian fascism redirects to Federal State of Austria 1934–1938.