Talk:Jewish ghettos in Europe

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'Ghettos' in modern London?
umm, I would really challenge the definition of the 'ghettos' in London. These are areas where Jews have traditionally lived, but entirely under their own volition. English Jewry have had a turbulent history, but no-one forces or ever forced them to live in Stamford Hill. Perhaps there was a ghetto in the city of London? I don't know.


 * Jews used to be persecuted in England for long periods of their history. See History of the Jews in England for more details.  Astronaut (talk) 18:47, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

-- A ghetto is a place where a group is CONFINED by law, by custom or because of social pressures. To suggest that modern parts of Britain are in any way "Ghetti" (the correct plural) for Jews is a libel unless one wishes to claim that Knightsbridge, say, is a billionaire's ghetto, although it fails, by this article's definition, in that it has no wall around it. While most medieval Jewish quarters, especially in Germany, were on Church or monastic land as Jews were "wards" of the local Bishop and nominally closed to other inhabitant of other faiths they could be fairly called "Ghetti", however Old Jewery in London belonged neither to the Church nor to the King, but to the Jews. There was no restriction on gentiles living there or of Jews living elsewhere: in fact Jews had more rights to move around and settle in England than ordinary Englishmen until the restrictions of the late 13th Century.

The article is biased and unfactual.Gaptech (talk) 19:44, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

RfC
An RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 16:51, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Germany and the Holocaust
Germany organized the Holocaust in annexed areas of Poland and outside Germany. The current version of this article suggests that some occupied counties were responsible (the Netherlands, Poland) rather than Germany.Xx236 (talk) 08:38, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

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Focus on traditional ghettos, not Nazi ghettos
Nazi ghettos are an entirely different genocide-driven phenomenon, and the list of them really belongs on the other article. I think this article should focus on the ghetto as it existed in European Jewish history for hundreds of years before Jewish emancipation, and that died out long before the WWII and the Nazis.--Pharos (talk) 17:25, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Planned Edit
In the coming weeks I plan to make a few changes to this article regarding the origins of the Jewish ghetto system in early modern Europe and the distinction between these types of ghettos and the Nazi Ghettos that were created in the 20th century. I plan to add a section focusing on the anti-Semitic policies of the papacy in the 16th century and the restrictions it imposed upon Jewish communities surrounding Jewish dress, property ownership and location of residence. This section will discuss the larger implications these restrictions had on the Jewish community as well as their role in the creation of Europe's tradition Jewish ghetto system. In this section I will be presenting information from Robert Bonfil's book titled Jewish Life in Renaissance Italy. Robert Bonfil is a professor of Jewish history at The Hebrew University in Jerusalem and an expert within his field. Secondarily, I would like to make some changes to the organization of this article, specifically to the list of Jewish ghettos in Europe by country. The current list presents examples of both early modern historic Jewish ghettos as well as 20th century Nazi ghettos. Considering that early modern ghettos had a very different purpose and origin than Nazi ghettos, it would be beneficial to re-organize the list to clearly differentiate between the two different ghetto systems. I plan to make one list of Jewish ghettos in Europe that originate in the early modern period before Jewish emancipation and a second list of Nazi ghettos established in the 20th century. This second list of Nazi ghettos might be more appropriately placed in a different article specifically titled "Nazi ghettos" however I do not plan on making this change at this time. If anyone has any suggestions or comments regarding my suggestions I invite you to please way in on this talk page or my talk page. Thank you. --James805 (talk) 21:11, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

The Holocaust in Poland
A recent well attended RM - Talk:The Holocaust in Poland/Archives/2019/July concluded that The Holocaust in Poland should be at that title as a neutral descriptor. As background, there is a POV push in some circles - e.g. this Polish government site - to add "German-occupied"/"Nazi-occupied"/"occupied" to any phrase connecting Poland to the Holocaust. this change - which modified a subsection under the existing "Poland" subsection to "Holocaust" and which matched the target The Holocaust in Poland was reverted. There's no reason to have an "in Poland" under a section which is already "Poland". Using a different title in the see also - The Holocaust in occupied Poland is inconsistent with the chosen neutral title name - The Holocaust in Poland. Icewhiz (talk) 09:00, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
 * The RM was about the title of a specific article. It did NOT, contrary to the false suggestion above, say anything about the use of the phrase "German occupied" when referring to... well, German occupied Poland during WW2, in other instances. As to this supposed "background", POV is a Wikipedia specific concept. Whether there are some "circles" (what? like a conspiracy or something?) who have some opinions or others is completely irrelevant.
 * Icewhiz, if you want to propose a general RfC to outright ban the use of the phrase "German occupied" when referencing Poland during WW2 everywhere on Wikipedia, then be my guest. Go ahead and put it on display for everyone to see and comment.Volunteer Marek (talk) 09:15, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
 * - please provide a clear rationale for why you are circumventing the RM's consensus. We had a RM. Very clear consensus against "occupied Poland". Links to articles generally follow the title chosen for them. Why link to The Holocaust in occupied Poland as opposed to The Holocaust in Poland? If you can't provide a rationale for overriding the consensus at the target article - then - please self-revert - circumventing a clear consensus is WP:DISRUPTIVE, particularly given you haven't provided any rationale for your action (beyond disagreeing with said consensus). Furthermore - Why do we have to repeat "in Poland" in a subsection under "Poland"? This is a clear violation of MOS:NOBACKREF. Icewhiz (talk) 09:26, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I am NOT "circumventing the RM's consensus". I did NOT move the article which the RM concerned to any name. Stop making stuff up, and especially stop making stuff up in order to falsely accuse me of being disruptive. What's disruptive is falsely pretending that an RM about a particular article title gives you a blank check to remove any mention of German occupation of Poland from wherever you feel like it. Why are you doing that anyway? Can YOU provide a rationale for a such a WP:TENDENTIOUS and ahistorical mass series of edits? If you want to start an RfC demanding that the phrase "German occupied" be banned across all of Wikipedia when referring to ... German occupied Poland, then go for it. I'd really like to see that.Volunteer Marek (talk) 09:41, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Please provide a rationale for violating MOS:NOBACKREF in the section title (no need to repeat "Poland" given header above is "Poland"), and for using "The Holocaust in occupied Poland" instead of The Holocaust in Poland - the consensus in the RM. If you are unable to provide a reason for breaking BACKREF and for using a different title than the one agreed upon in the RM (in a "see also" link) - please self revert. Icewhiz (talk) 10:00, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Please quit it with the WP:TENDENTIOUS WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. As already explained THREE TIMES (at least) the "consensus in the RM" was about a specific article title and no-one is going against that consensus. That result DOES NOT give you a carte blanche to go throughout Wikipedia and remove the fact that Poland was occupied by Germany in World War 2. That's absurd and obnoxious. Why would anyone want to do that? I can't imagine am not going to speculate the reason and I'll let you explain why you think that's acceptable by starting an appropriate RfC where you request that the fact of German occupation be removed from Wikipedia.
 * I have no idea what you're talking about with regard to NOBACKREF. Sounds like an invented excuse, now that your first rationale for your disruptive edits has fallen apart. Can you articulate what, how, where, violates NOBACKREF and why it's relevant? Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:27, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

It’s rather indisputable that Poland was occupied by Nazi Germany during the Holocaust. What’s the problem with saying that? Wivescoals (talk) 15:36, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Welcome to Wikipedia, and thank you for making your forst edit here. One can say many things about Poland during the Holocaust - including that it was occupied. Stressing the occupation is redundant, and is aligned with a particular POV.Icewhiz (talk) 15:41, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Uh... what??? You think that the fact that Poland was occupied by Nazi Germany during WW2 is a... "particular POV"??? Once again you illustrate why you shouldn't be allowed anywhere near any article that has anything to do with Poland.Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:24, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Per Dr. Waitman W. Beorn (Holocaust historian at The University of Virginia) - who explains the push to use clunky terms such as "German Nazi-occupied Poland" as caused by "current trends in conservative Polish nationalism. In order to highlight what right wing Poles see as unrecognized Polish suffering (3 million non-Jewish Poles were murdered by the Nazis), it is important to minimize other suffering". Icewhiz (talk) 05:44, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Omission of details may be seen as some of kind of denial or trivialization of the atrocities committed by Nazi Germany against Jews and others. Distortion of facts about the Holocaust is a form of antisemitism. What’s POV? Wivescoals (talk) 16:06, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/point_of_view#English POV = a position from which something is seen Preserving relevant facts is a POV? What are you talking about? Sorry, this is some kind of baloney. Poland was occupied by Nazi Germany during the Holocaust, it’s a fact not POV. Wivescoals (talk) 17:51, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
 * There is nothing wrong with a reference to the German occupation in the image caption, it's factually correct also it's a long standing text and does not need changing. --E-960 (talk) 18:44, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
 * E-960 - we're not discussing an image caption. We're discussing a sub-header under "Poland" (please see MOS:NOBACKREF) and a see-also link to The Holocaust in Poland. See diff. Icewhiz (talk) 19:18, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

" Stressing the occupation is redundant, and is aligned with a particular POV"-Icewhiz I am all ears for your explanation how claiming Poland was occupied by Germany is POV.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 20:37, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

@Icewhiz. Dude, it’s possible to scan your prior edits simply by looking at the edit history. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Icewhiz you removed chunks about Poland being occupied by Nazis from several other articles. What’s the matter with you?Wivescoals (talk) 22:27, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
 * We generally follow RM consensus when linking + there is no need to repeat the obvious over and over again. I am confused by your question - whatever do you mean by "What’s the matter with you?" ?Icewhiz (talk) 23:08, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
 * We generally follow RM consensus when linking - you know VERY WELL at this point that that is not the issue and that is not an appropriate argument. Apparantly there IS a need to "repeat the obvious over and over again" since you insist on WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT.Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:30, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
 * As we are discussing a see also link to The Holocaust in Poland the RM consensus on title is highly relevant.Icewhiz (talk) 06:09, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
 * That's not all what we're discussing.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:25, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, it does seem you are making arguements vs. an edit that has not been done, full of rhetoric on how Poland fared during the war. The edit here is a section title per MOS:NOBACKREF, and a see also link (matching title of target). Now - any on topic policy based objection to this?Icewhiz (talk) 11:03, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
 * This is a stupid discussion. Do other articles use this descriptor? WP:CONSISTENCY. François Robere (talk) 13:24, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Pls stop trying to use a discussion about a Wikipeida article title, to sanitize text in other articles (this is not the same issue) — an article title is one thing, full text inside of an article is another, as full text will naturaly have more detail, and carry stylistic variations, especially that there is nothing wrong with using the term German-occupied Poland... it's a historical fact. As always, comparing apples to oranges and then trying to base an entire argument on it. In Wikipeida, there are numerous examples where the text is linked to a specific article, but the linked text is not the proper name of the article, a few examples form other pages: "Soviets quickly signed a non-aggression pact with China" actual article title Sino-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact, or " Finno-Soviet war ended in March 1940 with minimal Finnish concessions" actual article title Moscow Peace Treaty --E-960 (talk) 07:37, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I assume this was not directed at me. François Robere (talk) 13:31, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Icewhiz Crap! Icewhiz, you’re editing Wikipedia 18 hours a day, every day. Is that your employment or something!? Netflix and chill dude.Wivescoals (talk) 22:51, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
 * - 18 hours a day? Better conditions in an early 20th century sweatshop (see New York shirtwaist strike of 1909 - protesting 65 hour work days). I really only edit when I'm bored from other stuff - and I actually do some stuff on my tablet from in front of the TV (in particular if I'm watching something live with commercials - guess my editing would go down if I saw stuff without ads). I thank you, however, for you concern for my well being. I assure you (in regards to "What’s the matter with you?" you stated previously) I'm A-OK and am ready, willing, and able to contribute. Icewhiz (talk) 23:03, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Icewhiz, please read one book about the Holocaust, watching TV and googling doesn't make you competent.Xx236 (talk) 06:35, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Subsection header
- please justify this reversion in the light of MOS:SECTIONSTYLE (bullet 2 - "Not refer to a higher-level heading, unless doing so is shorter or clearer.". This is an English Wikipedia guideline, and we generally attempt to follow guidelines on the English Wikipedia.Icewhiz (talk) 07:32, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
 * So now you're claiming that the problem is with the word "Poland"? Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:36, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I've been referring to the relevant MOS guideline all along for the subsection header - no "now" here. Subsection 3.10. is titled "Poland". Per MOS:SECTIONSTYLE the sub-header - subsection 3.10.1 - should not refer to the header above it. Please justify your edit in light of the relevant English Wikipedia guideline which has duly been brought to your notice. Icewhiz (talk) 08:35, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
 * You manipulate to accuse the Poles and to hide German and Austrian responsibility. It's Holocaust revisonism. It's immoral, dirty.Xx236 (talk) 09:19, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
 * - the above accusation is without any sort of supporting evidence. Please either provide such evidence or strike it. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:23, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
 * There are thousands of edits in hundreds of pages including this one and eg. Feminism in Poland, Islamophobia in Poland. Either we cooperate editing an encyclopedia or we are fighting nationalistic/religious wars. One of the methods is hiding German crimes in Poland and discussing "crimes in Poland" or crimes comitted by ethnic Poles instead. German politics in Western Europe was different so some people use their 'Allo 'Allo! TV series knowledge to understand life in occupied Poland. Xx236 (talk) 12:45, 7 August 2019 (UTC)


 * I have only now found "One can say many things about Poland during the Holocaust - including that it was occupied". I find the statement disgusting and revisionistic. Xx236 (talk) 11:36, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Total ignorance
"Starting in 1939, Adolf Eichmann, a German Nazi and SS-Obersturmbannführer who was head of the Final Solution program, began to systematically move Polish Jews"
 * Please prove that Eichmann was "head of the Final Solution program" in 1939.  What was the German name of such "head"?Xx236 (talk) 09:22, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Central Office for Jewish Emigration since October 1939. SS-Obersturmbannführer since 1941, so not yet in 1939.Xx236 (talk) 10:37, 6 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Did Eichmann really control transfers of Jews? Warthegau Jews were to be expelled to GG, but the trasfers were stopped and Warthegau murdered its Jews locally in Kulmhof-Chelm. Xx236 (talk) 10:39, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

"The Ghettos were walled off" - small ghettos weren't walled off.Xx236 (talk) 09:24, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

"The Jews were not allowed out of the ghetto" - but children up to 14 years weren't punished during a certain period, so they tried to get some food.Xx236 (talk) 09:27, 6 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Operation Reinhard was local, in General Government. It's probably linked in a wrong place. Lodz Jews were transported to Kulmhof (Chelm) and the crime wasn't a part of the Operation.Xx236 (talk) 09:31, 6 August 2019 (UTC)


 * The ghettos were centers of Jewish life, eg. Ringelblum Archive.Xx236 (talk) 10:13, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Jew's coat
Red link.Xx236 (talk) 09:51, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

between 12 and 30
My source says 13, not 30.Xx236 (talk) 11:13, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

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