Talk:Jewish insurgency in Mandatory Palestine/Archive 2

1939, August
In the timeline for incidents in 1939, the article states that, on August 26, "two British police officers, Inspector Ronald Barker and Inspector Ralph Cairns, commander of the Jewish Department of the C.I.D., were killed by an Irgun mine in Jerusalem."

Colin Shindler, The Triumph of Military Zionism, Nationalism and the Origins of the Israeli Right, 2006, ISBN 1 84511 030 7, p. 217: "A week before the invasion of Poland, the Irgun killed three British CID members whom they accused of torturing an Irgun commander. The day before the Germans crossed the border with Poland, the British arrested and imprisoned the entire high command of the Irgun."

I'm assuming that the article and Schindler are describing the same incident.
 * An inconsistency exists between the number of CID members killed which might be worth looking into.
 * The invasion of Poland started on the 1st of September, so there is a potential conflict of dates.
 * The article doesn't mention the motive for the killings.
 * The article doesn't mention the arrest of the Irgun's High Command.

   ←   ZScarpia  13:33, 12 February 2016 (UTC)


 * The Palestine Post of Aug 27, page 1, has the death of Cairns and Barker. It doesn't mention a third person, even one injured, or any information about perpetrator or motive except that it was believed to be Jews. Zerotalk 11:54, 13 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Thanks.       ←   ZScarpia  23:55, 13 February 2016 (UTC)


 * I also started looking at the first 3 pages of each issue starting on Aug 22.  Aug 24, p1, has a British engineer killed by a mine.  Aug 29, p2, soldier killed by bandits (apparently Arabs). I suspect the incident with 3 killed might have been earlier in the month; see the monthly summary at the lower left here:  Zerotalk 09:18, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
 * The 03 September edition reports the arrest of 20 revisionist Zionists on page 2, though it doesn't say who they were or why they were arrested.
 * Off on a tangent, but of interest to this article, is a report on page 2 of the 11 September edition of an Irgun announcement: '"Irgun Zva'i Leumi" Statement on Crisis - Ready to Join Britain - Tel Aviv, Sunday. - The "Irgun Zvai Leumi" (National Military Organization) declared in circulars distributed here last night that it has suspended all terrorist activities and was ready to join the British in fighting for democracy, until victory is assured and Hitlerism defeated, and for the establishnment of a great Jewish State in Palestine.'
 *    ←   ZScarpia  19:10, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Hello,
 * I am not sure of what is the point.
 * Are you looking for wp:rs stating that on August 31, the leaders of the IZL were arrested at Tel-Aviv by the CID ?
 * It is an important event but it is not in the article... Pluto2012 (talk) 06:54, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Two points: to verify whether information in the article is correct; to verify whether information which is not in the article, but might be worth including, is correct.     ←   ZScarpia  12:42, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Daniel Levine, David Raziel. The Man and The Legend, Gefen, 1991, in the last paragraph p.177 writes :
 * At the end of August [1939], the head of the Jewish section of the criminal division in Jerusalem was killed after repeated warnings to stop torturing Jewish prisoners. He disregarded the warnings and was blown to smithereens in the middle of Jerusalem. This lead to a full scale search for the leaders of the Irgun, and on August 31, the entire high command was arrested in Tel Aviv while a meeting was taking place.
 * At the following page, which starts a new chapter, it is written:
 * The onset of World War II, which started on September 1 1939 found the Irgun high command behind bars, and they had a dilemna: which power should they support in the war? Jabotinsky declared allegiance to the British government on behalf of the Revisionist party and Raziel followed suit (...). A letter was sent from the Sarafand detention camp on September 5 [in which Raziel motivates his allegiance in several pages]. (...)
 * p.181, it is written that:
 * This was the letter that started the intrigue that eventually led to the split of the Irgun and the formation of the splinter group known as [LHY]. At the time this letter was written, Stern and other high command officers were in the Jerusalem jail.
 * Raziel is released in November 1939 but the high command asks he goes back to jail (p.183)
 * The high command is released in June 1940 in Cairo and Raziel resigns "as a result of the agitation against him" (p.186)
 * There are many other information around Stern, Raziel, Jabotinsky and others...
 * Pluto2012 (talk) 18:36, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks Pluto. Looks as though the [David Raziel] article could do with some filling out. Does the book explain why the Irgun High Command would want him to return to jail after his release in November 1939?      ←   ZScarpia  00:15, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I think these points answer the question that was raised here above. This article cannot avoid explaining and underlying the detention of the whole high command during 10 months as well as the allegiance of both Raziel and Jabotinsky to the "British empire".
 * The high command asked him he went back to jail unless everybody is released. At the time the IZL had not taken position yet about the behaviour even if the topic was discussed. More Raziel's leadership was not recognized by all. The fact he took the decision of the allegiance alone in his prison and the fact he was released and not the other ones was an issue.
 * Pluto2012 (talk) 07:01, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Informal RfC
Hi,

English is not my mother tongue but I have a question of language because the French translation of the title sounds strange.

Should not the title (and I don't ask any move) be :
 * Jews' insurgency in Mandatory Palestine

or even better :
 * Insurgency of the Jews of Mandatory Palestine

rather than:


 * Jewish insurgency (...)

This insurgency has nothing to deal with the Jewish culture or religion. Jewishness cannot qualifies an insurrection. A car can be blue but a car cannot be Jewish. What would be a Jewish car ? For the same reason, an insurrection can be violent and peaceful but it cannot be Jewish. A car can be driven by Jews. An insurrection can be led by Jews...

Pluto2012 (talk) 06:46, 18 February 2016 (UTC)


 * I think it is ok. The phrase "Jewish insurgency" means "insurgency by Jews" and this grammatical structure is pretty common.  Similarly "Arab houses".  Even "Jewish cars" would be acceptable in some context where the group identity of the owner was important.  "Jews' insurgency" sounds odd, and "insurgency of the Jews" would have npov issues as it hints that it was a movement uniformly supported by the group, rather than a movement by members of the group. Zerotalk 07:00, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Agree with Zero, "Jewish Insurgency" is the parallel to "Arab Revolt" (and Arab also means culture etc.). Though would like to point out that some would like to name it "Jewish revolt", which is a possibility in case it is a more common name for 1944-1947 events (see above discussions).GreyShark (dibra) 09:11, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your answers. Pluto2012 (talk) 06:47, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
 * (edit)
 * And what about Yishuv Revolt ? Pluto2012 (talk) 06:54, 19 February 2016 (UTC)


 * I would suggest that we find another title altogether. The body of the article covers the topic of armed conflict between Zionists and the British in general. As such, it covers incidents ranging from the first sporadic terrorist attacks through, later, more concerted ones, the sending of letter bombs in the UK and elsewhere, the bombing of the British embassy in Rome and the shooting down of RAF planes by the nascent State of Israel. If 'insurgency' doesn't cover the earliest attacks, it certainly doesn't cover the shooting down of aircraft by the armed forces of a recognised state. Also, the incidents concerned were not confined to Mandatory Palestine. Therefore, the title 'Jewish Insurgency in Mandatory Palestine' is inappropriate on several counts.      ←   ZScarpia  12:51, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I think the article should not cover events after May 14 and we could even consider to stop the article on 29 November 1947.
 * These events are partitioned differently among historians but there are main milestones everybody refer to :
 * Article 1 : "Arab" Revolt : 1936 - 1939 -> White Paper
 * Article 2 : Withe Paper -> "Jewish" Revolt : 1939 - 1947 -> Partition Plan
 * Article 3 : Partition Plan -> Civil War : 1947-1948 -> Palestinian Defeat / Israel declaratoin of independence
 * Article 4 : Palestinian Defeat / Israel declaratoin of independence -> Arab-Israeli War : 1948-1949 -> Israel victory
 * Pluto2012 (talk) 06:47, 19 February 2016 (UTC)


 * How about Palestine Emergency? We also have a parallel category:Palestine Emergency.GreyShark (dibra) 18:28, 8 June 2016 (UTC)
 * . I have looked in a dictionnary and I don't understand what means "Jewish Emergency". Is this "Emergency Powers in Palestine" (???). Pluto2012 (talk) 16:35, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Not "Jewish Emergency" (haven't seen such term), but Palestine Emergency.GreyShark (dibra) 12:45, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

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This article has multiple issues
First off, the "timeline" section should really be rewritten into a general summary, with perhaps a spinoff article to list all the attacks against the British (I'm planning on doing both when I have the time, and I've got enough source material to do it). But aside from that, this groups together what were essentially three small-scale bombing/assassination campaigns and one major military campaign into one. The Irgun's brief bombing campaign in the late 1930s, suspended with the onset of World War II, the Stern Group's brief series of bank robberies, bombings, and shootouts of the early 1940s, the attacks carried out by the Irgun and a revitalized Lehi against government and police target after the Irgun's proclamation of the revolt in February 1944 until their suppression by the Haganah in The Hunting Season, and finally, the regular military campaign that began in late 1945 under the aegis of the Jewish Resistance Movement, which was continued primarily by the Irgun and Lehi with the clandestine toleration of the Haganah and Jewish Agency after the movement fell apart, up until November 1947, when the UN Partition Resolution and the subsequent 1947-48 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine overtook it, with British-Jewish clashes being incidental to that war. In fact, I've seen memorials to British Palestine veterans commemorating those who died between 1945 and 1948. We need to make this clear. Either leave those out altogether, or put them in separate stages in the infobox.-- RM ( Be my friend ) 22:38, 15 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Rather than changing the purpose of the article and hacking it around extensively, shoehorning it into fitting what you think Wikipedia should be providing rather than what the article was intended to provide, I think you should actually produce a set of new articles. Once that has been done, we can see whether the current article is still required or not. The purpose of this article was to cover the general topic of armed conflict between Zionists and the British. A central part of fulfilling that purpose, was an attempt to give a comprehensive list of attacks. The list has no restrictions apart from who the belligerents were.     ←   ZScarpia  18:01, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 5 September 2016

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Not moved &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 21:27, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Jewish insurgency in Mandatory Palestine → Palestine Emergency (1944–47) – In line with previous discussions and remarks by several users. Furthermore, a still ongoing discussion considers renaming Category:Palestine Emergency to match the article's title, but with no consensus so far. I'm herewith proposing to fix this issue by renaming this article to Palestine Emergency, which is also the more common name for the 1944–47 Jewish revolt in Mandatory Palestine and disambiguate it from the 1929 Palestine Emergency. GreyShark (dibra) 16:02, 5 September 2016 (UTC) --Relisting. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 18:53, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
 * - participants of 2012 rename procedure considering Jewish revolt in Mandatory Palestine and Jewish insurgency in Mandatory Palestine as alternatives to "British-Zionist conflict" title which was rejected as inaccurate and unsourced.GreyShark (dibra) 16:14, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment Why Palestine Emergency (1944–47) and not just Palestine Emergency, which links here? Seems to be needless disambiguation (does anyone call the 1929 events "Palestine Emergency"? It's not even mentioned in that article). Also, MOS:DATERANGE has recently changed and I believe the proposal should now be formatted as 1944–1947 if it were to proceed). Number   5  7  08:50, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Good remark - as mentioned it the proposal - some refer to 1929 Palestine riots as "Palestine Emergency" and same goes to the 1936-39 Arab revolt. We need some disambiguation here to avoid the non-specific date problems, pointed out by many editors.GreyShark (dibra) 12:14, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
 * But if the Palestine Emergency redirects here, it's clearly the primary topic for the phrase, in which case disambiguation in the title isn't needed (a hatnote will do). Number   5  7  12:46, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
 * The fact that Palestine Emergency redirects here is not the sole reason, because Wikipedia is not a source. However i can also live with "Palestine Emergency" title without specifying years. Again - some sources refer to 1929 riots as "emergency" as well, so years in title could help differentiate.GreyShark (dibra) 06:02, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

No.The standard work on the topic by David A. Charters (The British Army and Jewish Insurgency in Palestine,) calls it what the overwhelming content of the article says it was. To rewrite this as "Palestine Emergency (1944-1947)" changes the topic. It is no longer the specific event of a Jewish insurgency, but, within the parameters suggested by the new wording, the whole history of the British crisis in fulfilling the mandate in those years, which is a much broader topic.Nishidani (talk) 11:33, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose per poor rationale, a google search for "Palestine Emergency" results in very few hits. There is apparently a "Palestine Emergency Committee" but it is unclear if that committee has anything to do with this subject. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:02, 14 September 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Let me once again point out the obvious. This article currently covers events which took place in a period spanning from 1939 to 1948. Therefore, titles such as "Palestine Emergency (1944–47)" do not fit the current scope of the article and to change the title to such would not only change be a change of title, but also a change of subject-matter. The article also covers, besides those of the British, the acts of all three Zionist paramilitary organisations (one of which tried to sustain its anti-British activities throughout the period of the world war). If some editors would like to have an article which focuses on Begin's revolt of 1944-47, perhaps they should go and create a new one rather than hijacking the current one.    ←   ZScarpia  21:26, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

Mooted 1939 Irgun invasion of Palestine
In Zionist-Revisionism, The Years of Fascism and Terror, Lenni Brenner describes an Easter-1916-style revolt which Vladimir Jabotinsky planned to mount in Palestine in October 1939. Perhaps somebody has access to a more mainstream source covering the same event? Brenner's source is: Nathan Yalin-Mor, "Memories of Yair and Etzel," Jewish Spectator (Summer 1980).

p.19: "On June 9, 1936, Jabotinsky met with Beck and on September 11, with Prime Minister Felicjan Slawoy-Skladkowski. In October 1937, he returned to meet Marshall Edward Smygly-Rydz, the new strongman. He worked out what he was pleased to call an "alliance" with the anti-Semitic regime."

p.20: "The Poles did not bother to ask London for the Mandate; they did better. In the Spring of 1939, they set up a guerrilla training school for their Revisionist clients at Zakopane in the Tatra Mountains. Twenty-five Irgunists were brought from Palestine and taught the finer points of sabotage and insurrection by the Polish Army, which reportedly also provided weapons for 10,000 men for a proposed invasion of Palestine in April 1940."

p.21-22: "Revisionism was engulfed in a wave of maximalism, the Irgun was increasingly acting independently of Jabotinsky and, once again, he capitulated to his extremists. In August 1939, he informed the Irgun that he wanted to advance their proposed invasion of Palestine to October of that year. He would lead a boatload of the Betar, who would land on the beach at Tel Aviv, while the Irgun would seize Government House in Jerusalem, hold it for 24 hours, and declare a provisional government. After Jabotinsky's arrest or death, the Revisionists in Europe and America would further proclaim a government-in-exile. The adventure was clearly patterned after the 1916 Easter uprising in Ireland, where the leaders were duly executed after their surrender, but their gesture triggered a popular revolution which ultimately led to the British evacuation of the south of Ireland."

   ←   ZScarpia  21:07, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 November 2017
Change "Dozens of British soldiers, Jewish militants and civilians died during the campaigns of insurgency." to "Hundreds of people were killed during the campaign, the majority being British." 143.159.219.222 (talk) 00:21, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Can you provide a reliable source to support that statement? The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 14:59, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: Per above. ToThAc (talk) 15:21, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

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Rewriting
I am trying to revamp this article, to give it more detail and a better chronology of attacks and major events as the insurgency progressed. I've already made some progress. Anyone else who can assist in creating a better timeline please do so. The article right now is sorely lacking in a decent full account of this insurgency.--RM (Be my friend) 07:44, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 February 2021
Safiire (talk) 09:33, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

Inaccuracies, lack of source in lead (intro)
This page inaccurately states that both the IZL and LEHI began their insurgencies against British rule in 1944. This is factually inaccurate. The LEHI's insurgency began in 1940, as is correctly stated on the Lehi wikipedia page. this should be corrected. Safiire (talk) 09:33, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Lehi's original insurgency petered out after a few months, it was only resurrected with the Irgun's formal declaration of revolt in February 1944.--RM (Be my friend) 19:53, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
 * If you read the whole thing, the information is there. Maybe a bit disjointed, though, feel free to suggest improved structure. Zerotalk 12:01, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Irgun and Lehi "intentionally avoided military targets, to ensure that they would not hamper the British war effort against their common enemy, Nazi Germany." Is that a fact? Irgun yes, but not sure this can be said about Lehi, who even tried to cooperate with Mussolini and Hitler against the UK.
 * Also, the second paragraph of the intro, which contains this and other very useful, less controversial bits of info (the intro does need to sum up what the article later expands), would benefit from adding a source or two. Other than the Lehi bit, I guess the rest of the info there is part of the general consensus and it should be easy to find fitting sources. Arminden (talk) 13:06, 8 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Some time back, one editor was constantly trying to add statements claiming that Zionist insurgency against the British didn't start until late in, or after the end of the Second World War. The statements were cited to the work of an academic without specialist knowlege of Middle East history who made false claims about groups such as the IZL and LEHI in support of a theory about anti-colonial insurgency. On the question of whether British military targets were avoided is concerned, I believe that the history of what happened is as follows. Following the publishing of the White Paper of 1938, the IZL started to ramp up anti-British activities. Revisionist Zionists were inspired by the IRA in Ireland (Yitzhak Shamir used the codename Michael, after Michael Collins, for that reason). In emulation of the IRA, the IZL planned an Easter Rising-style revolt in 1939. However, the start of WWII intervened. At that point, the leadership of the IZL decided to suspend anti-British operations. IZL members enlisted in the British forces or co-operated with them, one example being IZL leader David Raziel, who died in an operation in Iraq. The IZL suspension of activities against the British, however, was rejected by ultra-Fascist members, who viewed the British as the principal enemy and that, therefore, co-operation with and assistance from the enemies of the British should be sought. These split and formed the LEHI (Stern Gang), establishing links to the UK's principal enemy, Germany. Prior to the war, Revisionist Zionists had been given assistance, including military training, by Italy. My guess is that, besides seeking co-operation with Germans, the LEHI also maintained links with the Italians. The notion that the LEHI suspended operations against the British is therefore incorrect. The whole reason for the formation of the LEHI was a rejection of the Irgun's suspension of anti-British activities. Although the anti-British activities of the LEHI during the war may have been insignificant, there was no suspension.      ←   ZScarpia  12:04, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 June 2021
This >"They intentionally avoided military targets, to ensure that they would not hamper the British war effort against their common enemy, Nazi Germany."< should be removed. This is unsourced and as another user has already brought up in the talkpage, it is dubious. Will Tyson for real (talk) 06:45, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template. &mdash;  LeoFrank   Talk 10:14, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
 * LeoFrank so far three users (see above discussion) including myself have expressed that the unsourced article statement is demonstrably false and should be changed and none have disagreed. How many need to weigh in for it to be changed? Will Tyson for real (talk) 01:50, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
 * LeoFrank it has been two months, can you please explain yourself. The information is both false and unsourced, why does this require a consensus when this has already been discussed? Are you yourself in disagreement with this edit? Will Tyson for real (talk) 22:57, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Holocaust reason for bombing
The Jews bombed the British in Palestine because Churchill caused the Final Solution by preventing the Madagascar Plan in 1940-41. (86.135.242.30 (talk) 13:00, 28 April 2022 (UTC))


 * See the header of this talkpage: "Editing restrictions for new editors: All IP editors, accounts with fewer than 500 edits, and accounts with less than 30 days tenure are prohibited from editing any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab–Israeli conflict." "Any page" includes talkpages, though users who don't meet the requirements are allowed to make "constructive suggestions." It would be a bit of a stretch to count your comment as a constructive suggestion however. Nor do I think you'd have much success finding reliable sources to back up your statement. {Wikipedia article: Madagascar Plan}     ←   ZScarpia  15:26, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Unbearably biased sources
A recent edit (that I modified) used this source. It is worth looking at as an example of the open bias that pervades the Israeli press. Two incidents are mentioned. In one case, British soldiers shot some Lehi recruits who were training in firearm usage. The evidence given that the recruits posed no danger to the soldiers is that no soldiers were injured! Were they supposed to deliberately take casualties in order to justify their action? What does this say about the hundreds of cases where the IDF kills Palestinians, including children, without taking casualties? In the other incident, an armored car struck a motorcyclist, killing the cyclist and his passenger. Both the driver of the armored car and an independent Jewish witness describe the driver as losing control and running off the road into a tree. How is that consistent with the author's claim that the collision was deliberate? How did the driver of the armored car know who was on the motorcycle or even that they were Jewish? No answers are given to these obvious questions. Zerotalk 07:48, 17 September 2022 (UTC)


 * This would be far from the first time that YNET provided less than stellar factual reporting or left glaring gaps in the same. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:18, 17 September 2022 (UTC)


 * There's some ambiguity in the independent witness's account, but I think that the likeliest interpretation is that the the driver of the armoured car deliberately swerved to hit the motorcycle and subsequently lost control. The witness states that the motorcycle was ahead of him and that the armoured car was ahead of both of them. That being the case, the only way I can conceive of the armoured car managing to hit the motorcycle during a swerve was if its brakes were applied (or if the motorcycle had begun to overtake). I think that it should be borne in mind that the incident happened in the wake of the Sereants affair, when troops and police, including a police armoured car unit, went on the rampage, during which they murdered Jewish civilians.
 * I doubt that there would have been much fuss made in the UK about troops shooting at youths (age 15-18) running away from a raided firearms practice session. Nor for that matter if the same thing had happened during other post-WWII small wars such as those in Kenya, Cyprus, Aden or Northern Ireland.
 *    ←   ZScarpia  14:59, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
 * If the driver of the armored car lost control, hitting the brakes would have been the first reaction of the driver. It is entirely plausible that the incident was deliberate but no direct evidence was offered. And if the motorcyclist was behind the car it is even less likely that the car driver knew who the motorcyclist was. You are correct about the youths but I don't think we should present the claims of a ynet writer as fact without some evidence. The title and initial text of the article reads as if new archival revelations prove that the youths were deliberately murdered, but the article fails to deliver any such revelations. Zerotalk 01:05, 18 September 2022 (UTC)