Talk:Jezdimir Dangić/Archive 1

Sarajevo 1914
There are some sources which claim that Dangic was arrested by Austrians after the Sarajevo assassination in 1914 and sentenced to several years of prison as member of Yugoslavist movement Young Bosnia. If that is true it should be presented in the article, both in its text and its lede, together with clarification about the ideology of Young Bosnia.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:11, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Please provide the sources in question and if they're reliable I don't see any reason why these facts shouldn't be included in the article. 23 editor (talk) 17:35, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Dangić and related topics are not subject of my interest, so I am uncertain about them and the reliability of sources. Maybe editors who are more acquainted in the Chetniks subject can help to estimate reliabilty of the sources in context of the assertions they support. Here are some of them that confirm 1914 imprisonment of Dangić, some of them asserting that he was trialed in Tuzla:
 * - this source also says that his father's name was Savo.
 * - This source says that Savo Dangic was priest in Srebrenica and that he was also imprisoned in Tuzla during WWI and listed among Serb victims of persecution of the Serbs which followed Sarajevo 1914 assassination. ✅
 * - this source also presents the information that he completed a high-school in Tuzla.
 * According to some sources he even wrote two books about his imprisonment in Tuzla ("Naše Tamnovanje", Tuzla 1938 and "Glad i tamnica", Novi Sad, 1940)
 * There are numerous websites that present text of Dangić's letter to Ustaša commander of Zvornik. In this letter he emphasize that he was imprisoned for three and a half years because he was Yugoslav nationalist.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:42, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
 * SNO Canada is unlikely to be considered a reliable publishing house, Dedijer would be fine. I'll have to look more closely at the rest. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 02:14, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * There are numerous websites that present text of Dangić's letter to Ustaša commander of Zvornik. In this letter he emphasize that he was imprisoned for three and a half years because he was Yugoslav nationalist.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:42, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
 * SNO Canada is unlikely to be considered a reliable publishing house, Dedijer would be fine. I'll have to look more closely at the rest. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 02:14, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Čolaković visit
What is the meaning/context/relevance of that sentence? --Joy &#91;shallot&#93; (talk) 19:41, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Čolaković was a Communist politician and it is notable that he chose to visit an imprisoned Chetnik commander. 23 editor (talk) 20:08, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Their connection is also mentioned in Family section on this talkpage.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:20, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Family
According to the below source:


 * [Our mother Nevena Dangić, born Jovanović, widow of late Jezdimir Dangić]

Dangic had a wife (Nevena) and children.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:51, 30 September 2013 (UTC) He had brother Vojin, who also was chetnik:
 * --Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:24, 30 September 2013 (UTC) [Jezdimir Dangić attempted to gather at least a battalion of Chetniks to attack New Kasaba and Milići. With the same task his brother, Vojin Dangić, came from Bratunac]
 * That looks fine. The connection with Čolaković is interesting. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 09:27, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes it is. I think I saw somewhere that two of them were good friends because Dangic was leftist in his youth and as communist sympathizer collaborated with communists at the beginning of the WWII. If that is true it certainly deserves to be better researched.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:08, 30 September 2013 (UTC) ✅
 * Enver Redžić (already used in the article) explains that two of them were members of the joint Chetnik-Partisan command:
 * I am surprised that such important information was overlooked. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:11, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Even official SFRY institute confirms this:
 * --Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:13, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[The Operational Headquarter was composed of following Partisans: Svetozar Vukmanović Tempo, Rodoljub Čolaković and Slobodan Princip-Seljo, and from Chetnik side: Jezdimir Dangić, captain Sergije Mihajlović and Pero Đukanović]
 * --Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:13, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[The Operational Headquarter was composed of following Partisans: Svetozar Vukmanović Tempo, Rodoljub Čolaković and Slobodan Princip-Seljo, and from Chetnik side: Jezdimir Dangić, captain Sergije Mihajlović and Pero Đukanović]


 * More about family: Dedijer/Miletić, page 88: "Pero Dangić rođak majora Dangića ubijen je od strane Njemaca." [Pero Dangic, cousin of major Dangic was killed by Germans"--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:10, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
 * After Dangic's extradiction to Yugoslavia his wife wrote a letter to Tito begging him to release Dangic from prison. Tito rejected. - --Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:20, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[The plead of Dangićs wife to marshal Tito was rejected]
 * In respect of all of the above, and generally on this page, quotes in Serbian Cyrillic should always be accompanied by a translation into English, per WP:NONENG. I also believe that it is necessary to provide greater context than just a sentence pulled out of a source. I would appreciate it if you would comply with WP:NONENG in future when producing sources here. I will not be addressing any of your comments unless they include a translation. I have copied this onto your talk page to make sure you are clear about it. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 08:50, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

WP:NONENG, WP:V and WP:RELIABLE
I am placing this in its own section, as I believe it has become necessary to reinforce what WP policy expects from editors on talk pages in respect of bringing non-English sources. These policies have apparently been lost sight of in a rush to produce dozens of "possible" sources for various things about the subject of this article. Quotes in languages other than English should always be accompanied by a translation into English, per WP:NONENG. When producing quotes from sources that are not in English, in order to meet the requirements of WP:V, it is necessary for editors to provide greater context than just a sentence pulled out of a source. I would appreciate it if all editors on this talk page would comply with WP:NONENG in future when producing sources. I personally will not be addressing any comments that include non-English text unless they include a full translation (not a summation of the content). It is also very important that editors producing non-English sources on talk pages (assuming they are bringing them because they consider they may be WP:RELIABLE) that information is provided about the author and publisher. Otherwise, the editor producing the source could be giving the impression that they expect other editors to do their work for them in showing that the source(s) are reliable (or not). Of course, there would be little point bringing clearly unreliable sources to a talk page (especially self-published ones), and some editors might consider that repeatedly doing so is disruptive. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 09:29, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Bratunac, Vlasenica, Foča...?
There are sources that Dangić took Foča from Axis forces (and according to some of them persecuted its Muslim population).

Foča is not even mentioned in the article. Any thoughts?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:43, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * [Chetnik commander took Foca in December 1941]
 * even Croatian institute (probably not quite neutral and reliable) confirms this [So Chetniks entered Gorazde on the same daz and on 5. December into Foca where they stayed until 20 January 1942]
 * even official institute in 1950 (probably not quite neutral and reliable) indirectly confirms this assertion [In cities: Foca, Gorazde, Cajnice as well as in the surrounding villages was wild terror. Chetnik hordes under command of Dangic, Mihailovic, Djekic, Todorovic and other threators....]
 * Milazzo mentions a move to the Foca area, but the Italians occupied the town after the Partisans left and went to Zelengora, so it seems unlikely Dangic had much to do with it. He may have worked with the Italians when they occupied it. I'll be using Milazzo to add more detail. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 10:01, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It seems that Dangic was commander of Chetnik forces (then allied with partisans) that managed to drive out Axis forces from Bratunac and Srebrenica in August 1941:
 * [... Bratunac celebrated a victory. Dangic managed to impose himself as commander of the forces that initially during first days of rebellion were gathered around Pera Djukanovic]
 * But Čolaković later decided to attack Chetniks in Bratunac.
 * [Dangic and Botic are in Bratunac where Chetnik headquarter for supplies was. We decided to attack Vlasenica immediately, and only then to go to Bratunac. Otherwise, if we would attack Bratunac now, Dangic will escape...]
 * The article presents Bratunac and Srebrenica as towns under Dangic's command, but fails to present information that Chetniks drove out Axis forces from Bratunac.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:40, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The same goes for Vlasenica.
 * The article presents information about Dangić and his Chetniks being in Vlasenica but fails to provide any explanation about it. There are many sources which claim that Vlasenica was also under control of Dangić. Even official military institute of SFRY confirms that Dangić commanded forces that captured Vlasenica . [... when rebellion on Romanija spread, the enemy retreated from Vlasenica that was entered by Chetniks of Dangic and Acim]
 * One Ustaše source emphasize that Vlasenica was actually a headquarter of Dangić . Is it true? Work of Dedijer/Miletić clarify that in Vlasenica Chetniks established 'Government of Eastern Bosnia' which president was Aćim Babić while Dangić was commander of all military units [During their work in Vlasenica, Acim Babic, merchant from Kram near Vlasenica, established so called government of eastern Bosnia with himself being its head, and major Dangice was commander of all companies, units and operated toward Visegrad]
 * - Even the official military institute of SFRY emphasizes that Dangic's forces participated in "liberation" of the area between Zvornik and Romanija which include Vlasenica, Srebrenica, Sokolac...[... from Zvornik over Vlasenica, Srebrnica, Sokolac and all the way until Stijene on Romanija was liberated either by Partisan or by Chetnik units of major Dangic]
 * WP:PRIMARY. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 08:46, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Operation Southeast Croatia which is GA confirms that Chetniks of Eastern Bosnia captured not only Vlasenica but many other towns within "a large portion of eastern Bosnia" ("According to Enver Redžić, in early January 1942, the Chetniks controlled a large portion of eastern Bosnia, including the towns of Zvornik, Višegrad, Vlasenica, Srebrenica, Drinjača, Bratunac, Foča, Ustikolina, Goražde and Čajniče. Due to continuing cooperation between the two groups, the Chetniks also shared control of the towns of Rogatica, Olovo and Han Pijesak with the Partisans.") If this was really true it should be clarified in the article.
 * A map of the Chetnik territory in Eastern Bosnia would be very useful.✅
 * [Voivode Dangic in Vlasenica installed provisional bosnian government] - This source written by Chetnik confirms claims of SFRY sources about "Provisional Government of Bosnia" proclaimed in Vlasenica by Dangić's Chetniks. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:58, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Bahaha. The collected works of Dobroslav Jevdjevic? Hoare is a reliable source for the Provisional Government, I'll get to it. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 08:46, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Celebrated?
According to the this source
 * [People began to celebrate Dangić and to sing songs about him. Here is one of them: "Over Romanija mountain Chetnik flag is waved, let it be waved, it came from Serbia. Brought by the hand of Dangić, commander of the fifth division]

Dangic was celebrated by some people who composed songs in his honour. If that is true it might be a good idea to add this information to the article, together with information about his Karadjordje star✅? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:48, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * SNO Canada is the publishing house, I assume (see above)? Surely if he was awarded the Karageorge Star there would be a clearly reliable source for that, not a book published by the Serbian National Defence of Canada? Peacemaker67 (send... over) 08:14, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The source for Karegeorge star is communist prosecutor on the trial to Draža Mihailović. I already explained it in the section about collaboration.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:29, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It wasn't clear. However, in respect of songs, we'd want a better source in my opinion. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 08:31, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * This song really exist. I found it on youtube (link).--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:25, 1 October 2013 (UTC)


 * --Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:42, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[Two heroes of glorious Bosnian mountains: Todorović and major Dangić]
 * YOUTUBE! Of course, put it straight in the article! At the top! I've said this before, please familiarise yourself with the reliable sources policy, and stop wasting our time. I will not further address this issue until you explain the bona fides of the authors and the publishing house. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 00:24, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Publishing houses for Djurićs work Ilustrovana istorija četničkog pokreta are: Narodna knjiga - Beograd, Alfa - Zemun , Sezam - Beograd (link) --Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:23, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Ok, and what about them? What is Djuric's expertise/qualification and what type of publishing houses are these? Peacemaker67 (send... over) 22:30, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Prof. Dr. Veljko Đ Đurić is historian who is director of Museum of the Genocide Victims in Belgrade. What kind of expert and what type of publishing house you think is necessary to confirm existence of the song?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:36, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, so Djuric is a historian, and he is a director of a Museum created by the Serbian government during the breakup of Yugoslavia with a specific remit to focus on the suffering of Serbs? this article has some interesting things to say about the reason the Museum was created and how its narratives fit into Serbian revisionist history. Secondly, we need more context than this short snippet from the book. "Two heroes of glorious Bosnian mountains: Todorović and major Dangić" provides no context, no name of the song, no indication of who wrote it or when, when it became popular, where the information came from. This is the sort of context I am talking about. A snippet from a sentence tells us nothing, and as you are bringing the source you need to provide the context and supporting information. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 03:40, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Plenty of interesting bits and bobs re: Prof Dr Djuric. this, and his signature on this petition as "an admirer and friend" of Nebojsa M. Krstic, the late leader of the now banned extreme right wing organisation Obraz. Same Prof Dr Djuric? Looks like it to me. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 04:23, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The rhyme I presented serves to support the assertion about Dangic being glorified as hero in a song. Dangic is one of Chetnik commanders glorified as heroes in poetry about Chetniks. I think that it is almost sky blue assertion which is unrelated with any of your findings about Museum and Krstic. Is there any particular reason to insist on exceptional sources for this kind of assertion? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:43, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * All I (and WP) require is reliable sources. Not exceptional ones. Reliable ones. Something you apparently have some difficulty understanding. If you refuse to provide any context, or further information along the lines I have indicated, then I don't believe any further discussion is warranted on such a insignificant matter. I have better things to do with my time, like going through the various reliable sources in my library and expanding this article. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 09:47, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Imprisonment in Soviet Union
The text of the article says:


 * "Soviets captured Poland, Dangić was captured by the Red Army and extradited to Yugoslavia's new Communist authorities"

Below source:


 * [In the prison Lefertovskaja Tjurma were already major Jezdimir Dangic....]
 * self published. Bringing self-published sources is just a waste of time. If you want to be treated seriously, bring only serious sources. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 08:28, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

explains that he was first imprisoned in Moscow. Any thoughts?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:23, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * [Dangic was reluctantly delivered by Russians to Tito after 14 protest notes and 2,5 years of avoiding it.] - This source confirms that he was first imprisoned in Moscow and only after some time decided to deliver him to Tito.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:26, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * self published. Stop wasting my time. I am attempting to address the points that you raise in good faith, but you are not demonstrating good faith in what you raise. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 08:36, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Another unnecessarily harsh comment you write to me. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:55, 30 September 2013 (UTC)


 * .[There are several versions of death of voivode Dangic... According to one of them, he was extradited to communist government in Belgrade immediately. According to other, he was taken to Moscow and later, in 1947... ]
 * The same author wrote another work dedicated to Dangić . If those two works are the only works dedicated to Dangice they maybe can be added to further reading section? If there is any particular objection to its reliability, it can be added as a note.
 * No, that is not how it works. It needs to be accepted as reliable first, then it could be included, IF the criteria are met. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 06:53, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

--Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:54, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * [...when he was captured by Soviet army in a battle and immediately transported to Moscow by plane.]
 * For starters it's not in English, and as a self published work, it isn't reliable. I would oppose including any self-published source, even if it was in English. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 10:03, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Are you sure that (both) Đurić and Ratković are selpublished? Hoare in his work which is already used in this article uses Đurić as source. Maybe both should be avoided? Here is another non-selfpublished source:
 * --Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:05, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[Russians captured him and extradited him to Yugoslav authorities to sentence him to death and kill him at the same year.]
 * don't be ridiculous. Hoare should be avoided? Give me a break. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 00:06, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Djuric is self-published. It is also not in English. We don 't use non-English sources in further reading because this is English WP. What Hoare uses is up to him, we use WP policies. I haven't looked at Ratkovic for reliability. However, you are displaying a propensity to produce Serbian sources without explaining the author or publishing house bona fides. I will ignore any further sources you produce here unless you address this issue. I will also remove all self-published and any dubious authors and/or publishers that are added. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 00:14, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Why did you say that Djuric is self published? I clearly presented publishing house for his work (Pogledi).
 * Please don't remove Dangic's picture PRODUCER took from Pogledi website (link) without allowing PRODUCER to present his explanation about Pogledi bona fides.
 * If the clearest version of an image of Rafael Boban, for example, happens to be on a pro-Ustase site am I endorsing that site for factual statements? Of course not. I'm honestly at a loss for words. You wish to bring a Chetnik worshiping website written by the likes of Carl Savich, Nebojsa Malic, and Srdja Trifkovic and endorsed by the Serbian National Defense Council and Ravna Gora Movement of Serbian Chetniks. It's impossible to be this naive with the language skills and years you've spent here. I'd have good faith and reasonable doubt about your motives if you were a new comer, but this is the exact same modus operandi of before where you swept in whatever possible sources you could find, insisted other users vet them for you, saw what managed to stick, and nagged incessantly on about what didn't. -- ◅ PRODUCER  ( TALK ) 23:39, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Again straw man. I did not propose to use Pogledi website as source. Still, because I understand why you used it I asked Peacemaker67 not to remove your addition based on it after he announced that he will remove any addition supported by publishers like Pogledi. Will you please be so kind not to continue with writing comments about me? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:43, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, you did. You cited and promoted Pogledi both as a website and as a book publisher. I will comment on inappropriate behavior when necessary. -- ◅ PRODUCER  ( TALK ) 14:25, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Pogledi also published work of Stevo Vojinović titled "На служби код Дангића" [In service of Dangić] (link).--Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:52, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Ratkovic is published by the Serbian Cultural Club of Canada. Please explain how they would be considered a reliable publishing house. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 00:29, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
 * WP:RS "Proper sourcing always depends on context; common sense and editorial judgment are an indispensable part of the process." Adding the "possibility of Dangić's Moscow imprisonment" does not contradict any other source and corresponds with actual events. If such assertion would be carefully attributed I don't see any particular problem with it. Though I don't insist on it.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:16, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Here is one English language source:
 * --Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:10, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
 * - Lubyanka Building is in Moscow.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:33, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Poland
The text mentions "liberation of Poland in 1945". I propose to replace "liberation" with more neutral term.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:16, 29 September 2013 (UTC) ✅


 * - This source says that Dangic was imprisoned until the end of 1943 when he escaped and in 1945 in Krakov surrendered himself to Red Army.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:30, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

If you can improve the article in any way using reliable sources then please do. 23 editor (talk) 17:33, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I might be wrong with this and would appreciate additional imput. Dangić and related topics are not subject of my interest, so I am uncertain about them and the reliability of sources. Maybe editors who are more acquainted in the Chetniks subject can help to estimate reliability of the sources in context of the assertions they support. If he was really imprisoned only until 1943 it is very important to clarify what happened to him in period 1943-1945.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:18, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I think that the topic of this article should have been better researched before GA nomination. This source says that Dangic joined Armia Krajowa in 1943 and struggled against Nazi Germans and being one of participants in the Warsaw Uprising. Even Politikin Zabavnik has a story about Dangić's struggle against Germans in period 1943-1945 (link). --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:34, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
 * There is nothing wrong with the referencing of this article. GA criteria 3 is broad coverage, addressing the main aspects of the topic, not every single detail of the man's life. No doubt you are aware (although others may not be) that Krakov was a nephew of Milan Nedić? I would not consider him a reliable source on a Chetnik that collaborated with his uncle. Krakov was also a friend of the fascist Zbor leader and collaborator Dimitrije Ljotić, and was the propaganda chief of Zbor from 1937 onwards. He later edited the collaborationist Belgrade newspaper Obnova. Shall I go on? Dedijer and Miletić, on the other hand, could be reasonably considered to be reliable on Dangić, and should be included. Be BOLD and add the information you have sourced from them. In what alternate Wikipedia universe would Politikin Zabavnik be a reliable source about anything other than itself? Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 01:26, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * If he really escaped the prison in 1943 and joined Armia Krajowa to fight against Nazi Germans for next two years, even participating in the Warsaw Uprising, such information can be hardly referred to as "every single detail of the man's life". --Antidiskriminator (talk) 06:53, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * True, but of course we would first have to have a reliable source for it, not Nedic's nephew or a comic. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 07:00, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * There are three important assertions about Poland here:
 * escape from the prison in 1943
 * joining Armia Krajowa to struggle against Nazi Germans
 * participation in the Warsaw uprising
 * You probably overlooked that I presented Dedijer/Miletić as source for the first assertion. They are already used in the article so I guess you will not attempt to proclaim their unreliability.
 * Krakov's lack of neutrality is not same as lack of reliability. If Krakov, as nephew of Milan Nedić and Dangić's 'fellow Nazi collaborator', says that Dangic fought against Nazi Germans in Poland then it is likely to be true. Don't you agree? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:24, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Here are some additional sources:
 * --Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:32, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Like I said already (I didn't overlook it, I addressed it in my comment), I have no problem with the first point, so I've encouraged you to go right ahead and edit the article and cite it from the source you have indicated. I'm not going to guess about Krakov's motives, he is affiliated with Nedic and Ljotic, and not a third party, so an uncorroborated claim by him that Dangić did something that runs against his well-documented collaboration is an extraordinary claim in my book. Of course, if a reliable third party source for the second two points is verified, I would encourage that the information to be added. I'll have a look at the ones you've produced, as I am sure the other involved editors will. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 07:55, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * forget Djelevich and Djelevich, which looks to be self-published. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 08:02, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I have no view about Colic, but he is already used in the article, so it would seem that other editors consider him a RS. Thus, including any information from his book would be fine. Why don't you go right ahead and add it? Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 08:10, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I will do it as soon as I study this period a little more. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:06, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Like I said already (I didn't overlook it, I addressed it in my comment), I have no problem with the first point, so I've encouraged you to go right ahead and edit the article and cite it from the source you have indicated. I'm not going to guess about Krakov's motives, he is affiliated with Nedic and Ljotic, and not a third party, so an uncorroborated claim by him that Dangić did something that runs against his well-documented collaboration is an extraordinary claim in my book. Of course, if a reliable third party source for the second two points is verified, I would encourage that the information to be added. I'll have a look at the ones you've produced, as I am sure the other involved editors will. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 07:55, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * forget Djelevich and Djelevich, which looks to be self-published. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 08:02, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I have no view about Colic, but he is already used in the article, so it would seem that other editors consider him a RS. Thus, including any information from his book would be fine. Why don't you go right ahead and add it? Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 08:10, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I will do it as soon as I study this period a little more. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:06, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Colic doesn't say he joined the Armija, just the uprising, I have amended the article (and the "solved" template) to reflect this. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 23:42, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * AD please abstain from making assumptions and claims that the sources do not make. -- ◅ PRODUCER  ( TALK ) 17:47, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
 * This edit of mine (reverted by PRODUCER) does not mention Armia Krajowa. Colic confirms that Dangic joined rebelion in Warsaw. What is problem with it? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:55, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
 * These edits are not explicitly supported by Colic. You are making assumptions. I've added "August - October 1944", the span of the uprising, for now. -- ◅  PRODUCER  ( TALK ) 18:23, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
 * My addition about Dagnic's allegiance to Polish resistance was explicitly supported by Colic. That is why you had to restore it after I insisted on it. Your insisting on the monthly time-span (which does not exist at three other allegiances) could not justify its removal. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:44, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
 * No it wasn't. First you had 1943-1945 for Armia Krajowa then 1944 for general resistance. Both were misleading and neither was explicitly sourced so it warranted removal. According to Colic we're discussing a two month allegiance here and that's assuming he joined the uprising from the get-go. -- ◅ PRODUCER  ( TALK ) 20:23, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Straw man fallacy. I already clarified (diff) that I refer to edit which "does not mention Armia Krajowa" but to my addition about Dagnic's 1944 allegiance to Polish resistance (diff, diff) which is explicitly supported by Colic. Not specifying the monthly time span (which is consistent to three other allegiances of Dangic) can not serve as an excuse to remove referenced assertion from the article. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:14, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
 * It wouldn't have mattered if you put 1943-1945 for general resistance it still would have been incorrect. You first added he joined Armia Krajowa, served from '43 until '45, and engaged in Operation Tempest citing the same source which tells me how "precise" you intend to be with sources. Now I don't know what your definition of "explicit" is when even August – October 1944 is speculation let alone the year of 1944 and if it's acceptable to use months for the Nazi German allegiance then using it for something lasting two months max is undoubtedly even more acceptable. You've been disruptive in the nominated article of another Chatnik commander and without good results so I recommend you actually stick to what the sources say. -- ◅ PRODUCER  ( TALK ) 22:59, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I understand that you believe that time span you added (August – October) is speculation. I also understand that you object to Armia Krajowa assertion and 43-45 time span. Still, that does not justify your removal of my later addition about Dagnic's 1944 allegiance to Polish resistance (diff, diff). I propose you to revert yourself and remove (August – October) monthly time span restoring my version with only 1944.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 06:45, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I also object to the Armija assertion, because it completely lacks any reliable source whatsoever. The only reliable source we have (Colic) just says he participated in the uprising, and the months of the uprising were Aug-Oct. Quite a reasonable position IMO. Antidiskriminator, you made this edit, which indicated that Dangic had an allegiance to the Polish Underground State from 1943 to 1945. Colic, the only reliable source in this matter, merely says (according to Google Translate) "Managed to escape from the camp and joined the Warsaw Uprising in 1944". PRODUCER has merely applied what Colic actually says to the infobox. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 09:32, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Again, this discussion is not about my edit which mentions Armia Krajowa but about my addition of Dangic's 1944 allegiance to Polish resistance (diff, diff).
 * Neither you Peacemaker67 nor PRODUCER presented any valid argument to justify PRODUCER's reverts (diff, diff) of my above two edits. Not specifying the monthly time span (which is consistent to three other allegiances of Dangic) can not serve as an excuse to remove referenced assertion from the article. As far as I am concerned this discussion is over. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:39, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, I must have missed your comment acknowledging that you were wrong about the source saying he was with the Armija Krajowa. The accepted source says he joined the Warsaw Uprising, not that he joined the Polish resistance. If you have a reliable source that says he joined the Polish resistance, feel free to bring it here with the stipulations about context, translation, author and publisher. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 10:45, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

When did Dangic become a Major?
The article sources him to the rank of cavalry sub-lieutenant, but there is no mention of Major (several steps up from there). We know he made it to Major, as almost all sources refer to him as such, but when? Anyone have a source for it? Cheers, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 10:51, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Various

 * I found a source which says that Dangic was commander of gendarmerie in Tuzla --Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:56, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[In the report of Jezdimir Dangic, commander of Tuzla gendarmerie company]
 * Great. When? Context please. Another sentence fragment. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 06:39, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I note PRODUCER has added information to the article about where he worked as a gendarme, which includes Tuzla. The source you provided doesn't say how big the gendarmerie were in Tuzla at the time does it? Because if he was the commander of a company that wouldn't make him the commander of the gendarmerie in Tuzla if there was more than one company of gendarmes in Tuzla at the time in question. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 11:03, 4 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I found a couple of SFRY sources (not always reliable when it comes to Chetniks) which say that Partisans made agreement with Dangic and his Chetniks in Drinjača on 1 October 1941:
 * ). [partisan-Chetnik agreement in Drinjaca on 1 October 1941]
 * . This source, coauthored by Redžić who is already used in the article, asserts that Vlasenica conference was proposed by partisans because Dangić complained that they do not respect their agreement reached in Drinjača.[... decision on conference... Dangic in Rogatica publicly spoke that cooperation between Partisans and Chetniks is over "because Partisans do not respect agreement reached in Drinjaca"]
 * --Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:43, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * - even official SFRY military institute confirms this agreement.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:46, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
 * There was the Drinjača declaration on 1 October, followed by the Milici agreement (on the details of the joint command) on 6 October. Both are covered in detail in Hoare, and need to be included, as Dangic was influential with both. The joint command only lasted until 16 November. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 06:39, 3 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Timeline of Dangic-Partisan cooperation . The below source says that first contacts between Partisans and Dangic were obtained in the first half of September 1941. Members of the Partisan command of Sarajevo region met with Dangic on Romanija and reported to their supreme command about Dangic being their potential ally. On 20 September Supreme Partisan command issued instructions for cooperation with Chetniks' detachments which was the basis for establishment of the cooperation between Partisans and Dangic.
 * --Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:57, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Voivode title . There is an ocean of sources which refer to Dangić as voivode. Still, I could not find any reliable source for this title being officially awarded to Dangic. Therefore it might be a good idea to clarify that Dangic was one of self-proclaimed Chetnik voivode as the following SFRY source says --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:30, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[Those spies are Chetnik officers and self-declared voivode Dangice, Todorovic, Jeftic, Mihailovic...]
 * WP:PRIMARY applies here. Zbornik is a primary source. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 06:22, 3 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Bruno Bušić as source for number of Muslim victims of Dangić's forces? Here is what Tomasevich says about him - I think that it is necessary to find better source for this assertion.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:43, 30 September 2013 (UTC) ✅


 * The number of Muslims killed used in the trial charges can be sourced from the trial documents. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 00:03, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I looked trough DM indictment but it does not present number of Dangic's civilian victims. It only says (p 28, Helsinki) that Chetniks killed over 2,000 muslims in December-January 1941 in Foca, Gorazde and Cajnice but do not accuse Dangic for that. Do you have approach to the trial document you mentioned?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:00, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
 * No, I don't. If he had a trial they must have charged him with something, I'll look. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 06:39, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Good point on Bušić. Can you find another source mentioning Colaković and the number of Muslim deaths Dangić was responsible for? Good work digging up sources so far. 23 editor (talk) 23:23, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I'll try to find it.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:01, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Here are some sources about number of Muslim victims of Dangic I managed to find so far:
 * - SFRY source but I guess it can be used with careful attribution
 * - This source says that, [according to some overestimations, in period October 1941 — 20 January 1942 Chetniks killed between 5,000 and 6,000 Muslims in the region of Foca - Gorazde - Cajnice.]--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:21, 1 October 2013 (UTC)


 * - this source also presents the information that he completed a high-school in Tuzla .[Dangic was born in Podrinje, on Bosnian side, near Zvornik. He attended high-school in Tuzla and as its student was member of Young Bosnia, for which he was arrested and imprisoned, before WWI, and trialed and sentenced...]
 * According to some sources he even wrote two books about his imprisonment in Tuzla ("Naše Tamnovanje", Tuzla 1938 and "Glad i tamnica", Novi Sad, 1940). He wrote the first book under alias Miroljub Bogic -
 * --Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:35, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
 * According to this source Dangic was imprisoned by Germans twice, in April 1942 and after the collapse of the Warsaw uprising [Caught when Germans took Warsaw,]. This means he was imprisoned by monarchists, fascists and communists five times for 7 years, five countries and three different ideologies:
 * June 1914 for 2,5 years by Austria-Hungary, as member of pro-Yugoslav Young Bosnia opposed to Austrian imperialism
 * April 1942 for 1,5 years by Germans, as member of pro-Serbian Chetniks and opposed to NDH (puppet state of Nazi Germany)
 * October 1944 for 1 year by Germans, as member of pro-Polish resistance and opposed to Nazi Germans
 * 1945 for 2 years by Soviets, as former member of pro-capitalist Chetniks and Polish resistance opposed to communism
 * 1947 by SFRY, for pro-German collaboration - and hanged--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:07, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Tomasevich recommends (p. 208) work of Krakov as text which presents pro-Nedic POV on Dangic . It might be a good idea to add it to further reading section with this note.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:43, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, no. Per my comment when you have raised Krakov previously, Krakov is not in English (which is preferred), and he is unreliable because he was published by Iskra in Munich. Iskra was a Serb emigre newspaper, that could hardly be considered a reliable publishing house . Krakov was also Nedic's nephew, a Zbor propagandist etc, and in my view that also makes him extremely dubious as a source. Tomasevich does not recommend him, he points readers to his book if they want a pro-Nedic POV on Dangic's activities. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 08:27, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, that is why Tomasevich emphasized that this work contains pro-Nedic view. But he still pointed readers to this book if they want a pro-Nedic POV on Dangic's activities. It would be useful for readers who would like to see such view. That is exactly why I proposed to add him with a note which could be "pro-Nedic POV on Dangic's activities". Is there any particular reason not to follow Tomasevich's example and not to present it? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:57, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, the reason is, it's not reliable. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 06:42, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Are you sure? Reliability≠neutrality. Per WP:BIASED guideline "reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective.... " --Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:23, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Absolutely certain. Neither he nor his publisher are reliable on this topic, neutrality doesn't even come into it. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 10:58, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
 * If Tomasevich "points readers to his book if they want a pro-Nedic POV on Dangic's activities" then I think this work could be considered as reliable for assertions which present this view. After I learn more about the subject of this article I will go trough its text to check if this view is given due weight. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:14, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
 * If Tomasevich "points readers to his book if they want a pro-Nedic POV on Dangic's activities" then I think this work could be considered as reliable for assertions which present this view. After I learn more about the subject of this article I will go trough its text to check if this view is given due weight. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:14, 4 October 2013 (UTC)


 * The projected agreement between Dangic and Germans worried Ustaše. The current text of the article presents the following reasons:
 * it would harm the NDH's position,
 * expand the suffering of Muslims in east Bosnia which outnumbered the Serbs, and
 * damage German-Muslim world relations
 * Tomasevich (p. 208) explains that the Croatian Ustashe were "very annoyed and extremely worried" because they saw this Dangic/Axis affair as "a conspiracy against the Croatian state". The current text of the article could mislead readers to believe that position of Ustaše was based on some unclear position of their state, humanitarianism and Islamophilia.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:09, 1 October 2013 (UTC)


 * The current text of the article emphasized (more than once) "kill them all" policy of Dangic and Chetniks toward Muslims. This contradicts to one SFRY source (published by state military institute) which says that Chetniks in Eastern Bosnia attempted to recruit Muslims into separate Muslim Chetnik units and that Partisans in January 1942 issued proclamation to Muslims from Eastern Bosnia because of this practice. [Proclamation of Muslim fighters of NOP and DV Yugoslavia on January 1942 to Muslims from Eastern Bosnia regarding attempts of Chetniks to create Muslim Chetniks units]--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:29, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
 * It does nothing of the sort. Zbornik is, to my understanding, a collection of primary documents. The use of primary documents is subject to WP:PRIMARY.


 * The lede does not summarize the text of the article because it does not mention Dangic's membership in Young Bosnia nor his imprisonment in 1914.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:50, 2 October 2013 (UTC)✅
 * Fair point. It does now. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 06:20, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Hurray! I got a tick. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 08:39, 3 October 2013 (UTC)


 * "Chetniks under Dangić's command massacred 1,370 Bosnian Muslims in the town of Goražde." - This sentence is not directly supported by the source which discuss number of Muslims killed during WWII and explains that during two major massacres of Muslims in parish Goražde 1,370 people were killed. I think that the first major massacre probably occurred during Dangic's rule, but the second major massacre (with allegedly 500 victims according to source used in this article) this source refers to probably occurred in 1943, when Dangic was in Poland and could not command the massacre.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:45, 4 October 2013 (UTC)✅
 * That is correct, I checked Locke and Littel (eds) and the passage did not lay it at Dangic's feet or state when massacred Muslims were killed in Gorazde. I have added better information from Hoare and contrasted it with slightly differing information from Dulic. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 10:08, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I corrected the lede per corresponding text in the main body of the article.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:13, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Relatively untouched by genocide
@PRODUCER, I sincerely apologize if I did not understand this sentence properly but, since you added this sentence (diff), will you please be so kind to clarify what does it mean "relatively untouched by genocide" and present the full quotation from the source?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:09, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
 * "In east Bosnia the largest Chetnik massacres took place despite the area being relatively untouched by the Ustaše genocide until spring of 1942." -
 * "Relatively untouched" is lifted verbatim. The Ustaše genocide occurred primarily in central Croatia and Bosanska Krajina. Hoare notes the massacres of Bosniaks were not revenge, but "an expression of the genocidal policy and ideology of the Chetnik movement".  -- ◅  PRODUCER  ( TALK ) 23:41, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Entirely correct per the source. Move on. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 02:01, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * @Peacemaker67: Please be so kind not to violate wikipedia rules and collapse active discussion on other editor's objections.
 * I object to the above mentioned sentence because it is not directly supported by the source, incorrect, illogical and could mislead the readers.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 06:35, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Who says it is incorrect? You? What reliable source do you have for that statement? As far as the collapsing boxes are concerned, if you can use them, so can I. Talk about living in glasshouses. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 06:44, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Within reasonable period of time I will present sources which contradict the assertion about east Bosnia being (relatively) untouched by Ustashe genocide before Spring 1942.
 * Go right ahead. Just make sure they are reliable sources with translations in full context, and that you provide explanations of who the author and publishing house are and their bona fides. Especially when the source you are challenging is written by a Doctor of History who specialises in the former Yugoslavia, is widely cited by other historians of the former Yugoslavia, and whose book was published by Oxford University Press. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 09:14, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify: I presented more than one (I believe) valid reason for my objection (it is not directly supported by the source, incorrect, illogical and could mislead the readers):
 * I don't think PRODUCER (yet) presented a quote which directly supports "relatively untouched by genocide" assertion. I did not challenge the source because I did not even see the quote. What I am uncertain about (and I emphasize that I sincerely apologize if I am wrong) is not the source. Its how PRODUCER interpreted the source to write this sentence. That is why I politely requested a quote but he has not (yet) provided it. ✅
 * This assertion is incorrect (I will present sources to prove it)
 * PRODUCER did not clarify what does being "relatively untouched by genocide" exactly means
 * this assertion could mislead readers about the real nature of Ustasha regime--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:14, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * This information is from a detailed explanation by Hoare of the creation of the "Provisional Administration for East Bosnia" that resulted from discussions Todorovic had with the Italians in November 1941. The Italians handed over Visegrad, Gorazde and Foca and the surrounding areas to Todorovic, after they forced the NDH troops to withdraw. Here is the quote in context:
 * "The establishment of the Chetnik puppet administration proceeded in a manner that paralleled the establishment of the NDH only half a year earlier: the Chetniks carried out systematic massacres and plunder of the Mulsim population of east Bosnia much as the Ustashas to the west had carried out massacres of the Serbs. These Chetnik massacres were not simply an expression of Serb revenge for Ustasha crimes, for whereas the largest Ustasha massacres occurred in Bosanska Krajina, and especially in those areas of Croatia with large numbers of Serbs (Banija, Kordun, Lika, northern Dalmatia), the Chetnik movement in those areas was comparatively weak; the largest Chetnik massacres took place in east Bosnia, which had been relatively untouched by the Ustasha genocide until the spring of 1942."
 * Thank you Peacemaker67 replying to my question. I don't understand why PRODUCER did not reply to it although the source uses the same wording. I had a feeling that Hoare did use the same words, but I just wanted to be sure. Relatively untouched by genocide... --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:02, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I told you that "relatively untouched" is lifted verbatim. -- ◅ PRODUCER  ( TALK ) 23:53, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I again sincerely apologize if I don't understand English well, but I simply can not understand how something can be "relatively untouched by genocide". Ustase either carried out their genocidal policy in east Bosnia or not. Do you have any other source which supports the assertion that this part of NDH was "relatively" exempt from genocide?
 * I found a text written by Hoare which might bring more light to this unclear assertion: "For one thing, the weight of Ustasha genocide occurred in Croatia proper and in West Bosnia, whereas the largest Chetnik massacres occurred in East Bosnia and the Sanjak region - the latter was not even under Ustasha rule or touched by the Ustasha genocide." - the latter means Sanjak region (link).
 * There is an ocean of sources which emphasize that Ustase commited terrible atrocities against Serbs in east as soon as they established their rule in east Bosnia which they considered of vital importance for their genocidal Greater Croatia project (because there was mythic Drina border toward Serbs ("међа на Дрини")). I think it is obvious that Hoare's assertion is generalization of his findings about Sanjak which was considered as part of Bosnia until the end of 20th century. Don't you agree?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:28, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Another loaded and almost rhetorical question. And another "ocean of sources"! None of which (of course) has actually been produced, in context, translated with information about author and publishing house. You can "think something is obvious" as much as you like, but it's OR unless Hoare explicitly says he is including the Sanjak. He doesn't, and in fact he mentions the Sanjak several times in the book, so it would be strange indeed if he meant to include it in this context, but didn't. What he does say is that east Bosnia was relatively untouched by the Ustasha genocide until July 1942. Which is what goes in the article. Desperate ploy thwarted. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 09:36, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I already explained that "Within reasonable period of time I will present sources which contradict the assertion about east Bosnia being (relatively) untouched by Ustashe genocide before Spring 1942" so there was no reason for another unnecessarily harsh comment.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:16, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Below is sourced text which explains that "east Bosnia being (relatively) untouched by Ustashe genocide before Spring 1942" assertion is not only illogical but also incorrect and misleading:

"Eastern Bosnia was of particular importance for NDH and Ustashe because of Drina which they propagated as frontier of their worlds toward another world. They saw Drina as China wall-alike border which separates Croats from Serbia forever. Serbs who lived in region of east Bosnia (near Drina) were subjected to Ustashe terror just like in other parts of NDH. Before uprising in the east Bosnia, mass atrocities (including those in Drinjača, Rašića Gaj, Skelani...) already committed by Ustashe significantly contributed to the success of the uprising in east Bosnia."


 * General remarks
 * Work published by Bosnian Academy in 1995 (unlikely being pro-Serb)
 * Drinjača - July-August 1941
 * Blic, Interview of Rade Jokić with Neđo Lukić who explained that Ustaše had intention to send to Pavelic a barrel full of blood of Serbs they slaughtered. He managed to escape, but many of Serbs were slaughtered and buried without heads. (link)
 * Srebrenica: a ‘safe’ area Appendix IV History and Reminders in East Bosnia present some claims that more than a hundred Serbs were killed in Drinjaèe by 12 August 1941 and that the basket full of eyes found by Italian war journalist, Curzio Malaparte, at Ante Pavelic’s desk during a late-summer visit to Zagreb in 1941 was from Serbs killed in Drinjaèa. This basket was an episode which he described in his autobiographical war novel Kaputt)
 * Rašića Gaj - July 1941
 * Skelani (after 22 June 1941)
 * Blic, Interview of Rade Jokić with Neđo Lukić who explained that Ustaše had intention to send to Pavelic a barrel full of blood of Serbs they slaughtered. He managed to escape, but many of Serbs were slaughtered and buried without heads. (link)
 * Srebrenica: a ‘safe’ area Appendix IV History and Reminders in East Bosnia present some claims that more than a hundred Serbs were killed in Drinjaèe by 12 August 1941 and that the basket full of eyes found by Italian war journalist, Curzio Malaparte, at Ante Pavelic’s desk during a late-summer visit to Zagreb in 1941 was from Serbs killed in Drinjaèa. This basket was an episode which he described in his autobiographical war novel Kaputt)
 * Rašića Gaj - July 1941
 * Skelani (after 22 June 1941)
 * Skelani (after 22 June 1941)
 * Skelani (after 22 June 1941)


 * This is only a short text and short list of sources I managed to prepare until now. I had intention to prepare longer text and list of sources but I made decision to refrain from further editing of this article and its talk page, for now.
 * I am concerned about using works of Hoare so often in this article, taking in consideration that his work contains such illogical and incorrect assertion like this about east Bosnia being being (relatively) untouched by Ustashe genocide before Spring 1942.
 * I wish all the best to all editors of this article. I am glad that I significantly contributed to its quality and hope that its remaining issues will be resolved without my assistance. But if anybody feels that I could help in future just let me know and I will reconsider my decision to withdraw from the editing of this article. Cheers.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:45, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Comments

 * Is there any particular reason for such harsh comment? I significantly contributed to the quality of this article but almost all comments you write to me are harsh (like always). Why? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 06:50, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

If you feel my language is direct, I am sure that is just a cross-cultural thing. No doubt some would find your talk page behaviour frustrating, but I actually find it mildly entertaining. On balance though, I consider your involvement in articles I have edited as a negative, mainly due to the inordinate amount of time wasted explaining the application of WP policies and researching dubious authors and publishing houses, despite the fact you have been on WP longer than I.

This behaviour is exemplified by descending on an article when it is nominated for review, raising huge swathes of text on the talk page, with self-commissioned ticks and collapse boxes that no-one else is permitted to touch until you decide the matter has been addressed to your satisfaction (regardless of any consensus to the contrary), using snippets of phrases from primary sources, self-published sources, dubious or demonstrably biased or non-academic ones, with no context, no discussion of who the author is and what their academic credentials are, the bona fides of the publishing house etc. This information then has to be found by other interested editors, or sometimes you provide it when queried. This repeated and demonstrated behaviour also incorporates a demonstrated lack of editing in article space even on the odd occasion that the point is valid and a reliable, in-context source has been brought for it, and no-one has an objection to it being added. It is often characterised by a focus on incredibly unimportant things, like a song or the name of someone's brother, and claims that these additions (assuming a reliable source can be eventually found for them) are a significant improvement to the article in question. Sometimes this behaviour unearths a useful point, but even they are rarely raised without an observation of how it is "surprising XXXX was overlooked" or words to that effect. Sensitive souls might feel you were being sarcastic or questioning their motivation.

I don't share your view (stated above) on how much of a contribution you make to articles through this behaviour, my impression (based on significant interaction over time) is that this behaviour is probably aimed at trying to get material that doesn't suit your particular point of view removed, and vice versa. The Pavle Djurisic article, and the fact that you are topic banned from it, is a case in point, and this one (another Chetnik leader) is shaping up in a very similar way. I recommend you examine your behaviour and try to make one point at a time, properly, in context, using reliable sources whose bona fides withstand examination, rather than this shotgun approach. PRODUCER has said as much above, and we both have plenty of interaction with you we can point to in order to demonstrate this pattern of behaviour occurs. I might add that these observations are not about you as a person, as I do not know you and I am sure you would be very interesting to have a chat with, they are observations about your behaviour on talk pages on WP. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 07:59, 3 October 2013 (UTC)