Talk:Jieitaikakutōjutsu

Help needed from Japanese and English speakers
With exception of Japanese wikipedia entry on Jieitaikakutōjutsu, getting material about the martial art in question is quite difficult. Especially with the post-2008 revised version of the style, that is strictly limited to Japan Self-Defense Forces. Only valid source I have is the 2002 book "Introduction to Self-Defense Forces Hand Fighting" (自衛隊徒手格闘入門), ISBN 978-4890631506. I'm trying to find others, but to tell you the truth, I am quite handicapped with citations and I need help. I prefer not to have this entry deleted over technicalities or an moderator who prefers deletion over research and aid. --TrickShotFinn (talk) 20:00, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

'influenced by' note
"Kenji Tomiki was one of the people asked in helping build the 1959 hand-to-hand fighting manual. Saying that this style was "influenced by Aikido" is bit board and obscures details, as Tomiki's knowledge and foundation of Shodokan Aikido have ultimately influenced the direction of the style, divergent from base Aikido and Morihei Ueshiba's vision."
 * This may be fair comment, but it's unsourced -- as is the comment it's referring to -- and leads to an article that reads like it's trying to point-counterpoint itself. Is there some way this could be integrated better or otherwise reworked?  Otherwise I'll just cn both and people can think about whether either or both might be better removed, in the longer run.  109.255.211.6 (talk) 09:23, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
 * If it's citations you need, then maybe you should take look at the article more carefully. (oi.) Most of this info is based on information retrieved from Japanese language version of the entry. Otherwise I'm not certain what you are saying. Shodokan-style of Aikido would be more factually accurate than "just Aikido", no? Shodokan Aikido is more sport-based than the "base" Aikikai system. Or should the section just be changed to "Aikido (Tomiki-Ryu)" instead or something? TrickShotFinn (talk) 17:25, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you should look more carefully at my comment, then, in order to determine what it is that I'm saying? "oi".  It's not I that "need citations", it's a pretty basic tenet of Wikipedia.  At time of my comment, we had an infobox on the "parenthood" of this style, and a note that reads like it was rowing back hard on that.  The Japanese article has neither of those.  (It does discuss aikido inline, but without appearing to make this sort of self-contradicting commentary, so I don't see how this assists this discussion.) This article has no cites for either -- the references may or may not support either (or neither, or both), but specific claims should have specific cites, and claims that contradict each other shouldn't just be juxtaposed, like two different editors conducting an argument inside the article.  Does that help matters at all?
 * But as you've entirely changed that text in the meantime, moving on... The contradictory internal quibble (and typo) have been eliminated entirely, yay.  However, now we have the (again uncited) claim in the infobox that a style formally founded in 1967 is a "parent" of an art originating in 1959.  That's at best a jarring breakdown of metaphor, and at worst misleading as to the sequence of events.  I'd propose to move that parenthesis into the note to avoid that, where it can be made clearer.  109.255.211.6 (talk) 09:34, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
 * You write in awfully ornate way just to say "If page x says thing was founded in contradictory dates, then how could one have influenced the other?". You could've just *said this clearly* earlier, rather than start flexing your legalese and waste the time of us both. TrickShotFinn (talk) 11:24, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
 * The Shodokan Aikido entry is rather incomplete - as it lacks citations in many places and then some. Also on Kenji Tomiki entry, I haven't found anything concrete about when base/Aikikai Aikido and Tomiki's Aikido start to deviate. Earliest is either late 1940s or early 1950s, with Tomiki's Aikido University club proper established in 1958 and the "central dojo" being founded in 1967. TrickShotFinn (talk) 20:09, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
 * It appears User talk:PRehse is on the opinion that Tomiki-ryu is shouldn't be counted as one of the parent styles of JTKJ and that 1967 would be more reasonable seperation date between his and Ueshiba's/Aikikai schools. I'll proceed fixing this up. Next time, no Randroid speak, yeah?TrickShotFinn (talk) 11:29, 18 March 2021 (UTC)