Talk:Jim Bartels

Notability and BLP issue
I wonder if this figure is really notable enough for a Wikipedia article. Being known for a controversy is not necessarily the best demonstration of notability. He may have been a descendent of a more notable Hawaiian figure from history, but just being related to someone from history does not make one notable. Has the figure done anything noteworthy enough to not make this so unbalanced. It seems insensitive to his memory and to his family for this article to stand alone if the man was most notable for resigning a board membership over a controversy. There are a number of examples I can make such as the Prop 8 controversy over an artistic director. This would be a BLP violation if he were still a living person but may still be since the other figure mentioned is still living. Per WP:AVOIDVICTIM: "When writing about a person noteworthy only for one or two events, including every detail can lead to problems, even when the material is well sourced. When in doubt, biographies should be pared back to a version that is completely sourced, neutral, and on-topic. This is of particular importance when dealing with living individuals whose notability stems largely or entirely from being victims of another's actions. Wikipedia editors must not act, intentionally or otherwise, in a way that amounts to participating in or prolonging the victimization. "--Mark Miller (talk) 23:28, 29 June 2014 (UTC) Has the figure done anything notable too Wikipedia standards that does not involve a small scandal at a local level?--Mark Miller (talk) 23:50, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
 * He is. He was the curator of Iolani Palace and headed the final restoration process of the palace, and helped First Lady Vicky Cayetano restore Washington Place into a museum. His fame and career span thirty years. That is his main notability not the throne incident or his ancestry or his brief marriage to a Kawananakoa. He was a respected historian and Kupuna of the Hawaiian community and one of the most well learned and gifted Hawaiian historian of his lifetime and consulted about Hawaiian history when making the documentaries Conquest of Hawaii and Hawaii's Last Queen, in which he appears in. He is not globally recognized as Neil Armstrong or Queen Elizabeth II is, nor does he need to be, but he is notable in his own right. It is high time he had an article and I found it unexplainable that Wikipedia has nothing about him up to this point. I have only covered the ice tip of this man's notability in the brief paragraphs I have written here about him. I had only intended to create a stub article but wrote a bit more. The article is small and brief at this point but has so much potentials for expansions. Also the throne incident is neutral to a point and follows what the source says about the incident. No one is casted as a victim or anybody as an aggressor. Both Bartels' and Kawananakoa's resignation were voluntary, Bartels chose to resign and was not the victim of Kawananakoa's actions. The paragraph we have mow merely reports what happened without taking side, --KAVEBEAR (talk) 00:07, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I should apologize for some of my responses to your allegations. Some of fixes you made made it more neutral. Thanks for that. Should have used "incident" not scandal, my bad; I think I meant to get across the idea that it was a big deal. Your right, I searched and found no Hawaiian news reporter calling it a scandal. The age (which is no longer accurate) and fragility of the throne shouldn't be specified, you're right and it was too close of paraphrasing too. The additional sentence was unnecessary but it allow the reader to know both Bartel and Kawananakoa resigned, although I don't feel it is worth it to argue for its reinclusion since a reader can just look at Kawananakoa's article to know she resigned too shortly after the incident.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 00:51, 30 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Bartels also appeared on the documentaries The American Experience: Hawaii's Last Queen (1994) and Conquest of Hawaii (2003). – I am going to double check on your allegations with an administrator and possibly find a reliable source,--KAVEBEAR (talk) 00:56, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
 * You're right. Imdb is not allowed here. Found reliable source for first movie.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 01:16, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Let me sourced things I claimed in my response: He was the curator of Iolani Palace and headed the final restoration process of the palace, and helped First Lady Vicky Cayetano restore Washington Place into a museum. He was a respected historian and Kupuna of the Hawaiian community and one of the most well learned and gifted Hawaiian historian of his lifetime
 * http://archives.starbulletin.com/2003/04/22/news/story11.html
 * http://archives.starbulletin.com/98/08/04/news/story4.html
 * http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2003/Apr/21/ln/ln19a.html
 * http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2003/Apr/22/ln/ln09a.html
 * http://archives.starbulletin.com/98/07/21/news/story1.html
 * http://archives.starbulletin.com/2001/08/19/news/story3.html
 * http://archives.starbulletin.com/2001/08/19/news/story3.html
 * http://archives.starbulletin.com/2002/03/27/news/index6.html
 * http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2001/Aug/22/ln/ln01a.html
 * http://archives.starbulletin.com/98/12/02/news/story8.html
 * http://www.hanahou.com/pages/magazine.asp?Action=DrawArticle&ArticleID=295&MagazineID=18
 * http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2002/Nov/20/op/op01a.html
 * http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2002/Oct/21/ln/ln24a.html
 * http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2002/Oct/21/ln/ln24a.html
 * http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/2001/Jan/21/bob.html
 * http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/2001/Jan/21/lee.html
 * google book search
 * google scholar search
 * http://archives.starbulletin.com/2003/04/22/news/story11.html
 * http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2003/Apr/21/ln/ln19a.html
 * http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2003/Apr/22/ln/ln09a.html
 * http://archives.starbulletin.com/98/07/21/news/story1.html
 * http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2003/Apr/23/op/op03a.html
 * Briefly mentioned probably in above links relating to work with Washington Place and Iolani Palace


 * I believe you owe me a specific apology for accusing me of "Your words dishonor the memory of Mr. Bartels and his place in the Hawaiian community".. You are getting out of hand and I am warning you, there are limits to the attacks I will take from you. I have tried to give you AGF but you continue to throw that back with accusations of bad faith.
 * Sorry. I apologize for my comment. What I said there was not professional.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 04:58, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you for that.--Mark Miller (talk) 08:43, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I think this may need to be nominated for deletion based on the lack of notability to Wikipedia standards. I think this may be a local personality and that their notability is limited as a curator of a museum and historian, that appeared in two documentaries. I am not sure if this qualifies as notable in an encyclopedic manner.--Mark Miller (talk) 04:26, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Sure if you want. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 04:58, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

I have a concern with the above links. You stated that the subject is briefly mentioned "probably". Are you saying you are not sure if the above links mention the subject or not? ""Here is my concern using the criteria for notability:

From WP:SIGCOV

I don't believe this subject has significant coverage. I believe the reliable sources are very limited and just from the above seems to be almost all newspaper coverage and does not pass the criteria for multiple sources. The last part of this I believe is also a concern that there may be a presumption of notability due to what one believes to be significant coverage is one particular medium.--Mark Miller (talk) 08:33, 30 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Yes, after a review of the above links I am convinced this does not pass notability. the many of the links are doubles of the same story and only one is detailed about the subject himself. The Google book search only resulted in a single page on my browser and the scholar search only showed three. I believe this is a nomination candidate for deletion.--Mark Miller (talk) 08:43, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I closed that AFD as the nominator per guidelines as it appeared to me to be a clear support with reasonable discussion to convince me that the article may meet borderline notability. While I still support deletion, going forward I only ask editors to please watch for NPOV and copyright issues and that the sources clearly support the claims. Thanks.--Mark Miller (talk) 02:28, 1 July 2014 (UTC)