Talk:Jitte

Bandit ronin hunting
As I understand, this weapon played a key role in the hunting down of bandit ronin. If anyone knows more about this storyline and the role this weapon played, I'd appreciate learning. -- Sy / (talk)
 * Well, if it was a common law enforcement weapon, and law enforcement officers frequently hunted bandits, then naturally it would frequently end up being employed against bandit ronin. -Toptomcat 22:42, 22 November 2006 (UTC) (Also- 'storyline?')

Etymology
The article puts the meaning of the name as "十手; the power of ten hands weapon". Is there a source on that? It seems like an over interpretation of the kanji. I was under the impression that it had more to do with the shape of the jitte.
 * I can't find anything to suggest that this is a correct etymology. Also, it has the name 実手 according to the Japanese article. --DannyWilde 07:35, 22 November 2005 (UTC)


 * "Ju" means ten, "Te" means hand or hands. A1ecks

As far as I know, the jutte originally had a cross shape, so "jutte" would mean "ten (in the) hand". I have no valid sources for this. It might give a hinch though

Kennin 17:11, 22 May 2008 (CET)

Why is it sometimes referred to as "jitte", when it is a composition of "j&#363;" and "te"? Jutte I understand, due to the old age of the word. Jitte on the other hand does not make sense.

Kennin 17:15, 22 May 2008 (CET)

The article also later states "it resembled its name of "ten hands", having that many prongs," so the article itself is internally inconsistent on what the etymology is.

As I'm sure many of you know, Japanese the character for ten (十 juu) is a plus-sign shape, and it refers to many shapes of two lines meeting at perpendicular angles. Take the Japanese word for "cross," "十文字 juumonji," which literally means "the character juu (ten)" but often refers to the shape. This seems like the mostly likely etymology to me. Either way, there really needs to be a source.

As for "jitte", the character for ten (juu) is (according to what is taught in elementary schools) actually supposed to be read "ji" in many kanji combinations, but modern usage now allows "juu" as well. Take for example "jitten" for "ten points," even though "juuten" is equally intelligible and in use. Many older people will still use the "ji" reading in kanji combinations.

Also, I'm not sure if we should make a huge effort to try and literally translate the "ten" and the "hand" from the name. A mention of how it references the shape is probably enough.

-Karl —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.23.60.64 (talk) 00:54, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Sword-breaker?
In the Robert Jordan "wheel of time" series, there's a weapon carried by a law enforcement official called a "sword-breaker". Is this (which I haven't encountered elsewhere in fiction) perhaps modeled upon the jitte? --Alvestrand 00:41, 19 January 2006 (UTC)


 * See also Katar, also a sword-breaker.--Ketin Porta 13:10, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I later found Sword breaker too. Seems Jordan's version is European, after all.... --Alvestrand 14:07, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

jutte not neccessarily a sword breaker
as taught in the bujinkan system, specifically takagi yoshin ryu, the jutte was used to arrest the blade and control its motion, possibly twist it out of the hands of the weilder.

while is is concievable two weapons could break a sword, one alon would yeild a situation that would probly be safest to catch the blade, run the jutte to the tsuba (hilt) and control the attackers arms to disarm them and control thier body movement.

- At my dojo (also bujinkan), we were told that the jitte's tyne is *not* there to break or catch swords specifically -- although it could be used for that purpose -- it's there just as much (or perhaps more) to trap the fingers, to press into pressure points like the clavicle, sternum or wrist, and to hook into clothing. Harry Metcalfe 18:34, 17 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The tine serves a number of purposes in Juttejutsu. While it can be used to catch swords, the proximity of the hand makes it quite unsafe to catch on the blade side as the sword strikes in. Rather, it was more often the case that one would evade the sword and trap the back of the blade, thereby retaining a stronger position. Other uses would include trapping the wrist at a draw, or trapping extremities, pressing into joints, pressure points, or hooking openings (mouth, nose, etc.). For information regarding Jutte use, I'd suggest looking for information on Edo Machikata-ryu Juttejutsu.Stslavik 18:11, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I've updated this section based on the comments here. Harry Metcalfe (talk) 22:18, 6 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I think it needs to be reworded to be closer to Stslavik's original phrasing. As it is now, it essentially says that "it's false the it was used to catch a blade, but was instead used to catch a blade."  It's all in the details; Stslavik meant that it wasn't used to catch the edge of the blade, but rather the unsharpened back and thereby control the blade or the blade-wielder's arm or arms. 71.200.140.35 (talk) 11:11, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation
How do you pronounce it, anyone?


 * Ji (Jea as in blue JEAns) tte (te as in TEchnology) Japanese pronunciation of vowels is largely (a)ah, (e)eh, (i)ee, (o)oh, (u)oo
 * Also, Japanese syllables should be pronounced for an equal length of time per syllable. In the case of a double-t like in Jitte, the doubling indicates a space of a syllable inbetween the two.  じって　the character in the middle indicates this space of silence. 24.48.159.136 23:26, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Stub
I removed the stub tag. I think the article contains too much information to qualify as such. Sven Lotz 09:04, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Blunt or edged?
I'm 95% sure that jitte are typically blunt, but the article is somewhat vague on that point. Do edged examples exist? -Toptomcat 22:42, 22 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, they do, either having the hooks or the main bar being sharpened. --Hatsukanezumini 21:21, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


 * There are some versions that have a blunt end, but if it is ever grabbed or trapped in some way, all the user has to do is twist and the hollow blunt end screws off to reveal a dagger. --Ghostexorcist 17:45, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Trivia
Moved trivia section here per WP:TRIV and WP:WPMA. Bradford44 17:27, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

thumb|Inspector Ishida, kneeling, is holding a jutte.


 * Zenigata Heiji, a fictional okappiki who carries a jutte.
 * Sodom a character from the Street Fighter Alpha and Final Fight game series who uses a pair of jutte as weapons.
 * Smoker in One Piece has a large jutte he carries on his back.
 * In Gundam 0083 episode 09, the RX-78GP01Fb Gundam Full Vernian "Zephyranthes" uses a small beam jutte that flames out of the top wrist to parry an incoming beam saber from a Zeon mobile suit.
 * Sakami "The Saw" Manzou, a detective in the anime series Samurai Champloo, carries a jutte and puts it to some novel uses.
 * Manji the main character of Blade of the Immortal has two short-swords shaped like Jutte, as well as two smaller weapons which he notes to be able catch/break a sword in the same style as a Jutte. Additional the secondary character Doa later steals a Jutte from a policemen and sharpens it to use it as offensive weapon.
 * The title character from the Hanzo the Razor series of films is a constable in the Edo period of Japan. He carries 2 jittes(these having lengths of chain concealed in the handles) and routinely uses them as one of his primary weapons.
 * In the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan, thief-catchers like Juilin Sandar use a weapon called a sword breaker, which performs a similar function to a jitte.
 * In the Magic: The Gathering card game, a card called Umezawa’s Jitte is a much played card that is widely considered to be very powerful.
 * In the Usagi Yojimbo comic book, the police detective, Inspector Ishida, is a formidable master with the weapon.
 * Inspector Zenigata, the antagonist from the Lupin III series, uses a jutte when not utilizing his famous handcuff-throwing technique.
 * In the MMORPG Guild Wars, the jitte is a sword that deals blunt damage.
 * In the film Battle Royale, Keita Iijima obtains a jutte from his day pack.
 * In the anime series Ronin Warriors, the character Lady Kayura uses twin jutte.
 * In the Nintendo DS game Contact, the Jutte is a fairly strong Club-type weapon that improves defense.
 * In the anime series Cyber City Oedo 808, officers of the Cyber Police Squad use the jutte as a weapon and as a method of identification.
 * In the Soul Calibur video game series, the female ninja Taki has a pair of Jutte amongst her extra weapons.
 * In the MMORPG Asheron's Call, Jitte are weapons of the mace family. They do slightly less damage than the heaviest mace-type weapons but have a higher defensive bonus.
 * In the MMORPG Ragnarok Online, the Ninja use the Jutte as a ninja-only dagger family weapon that does not deal too much damage, but can in exchange break the opponent's weapon in a relatively high chance per attack.
 * The character of the constable in Yojimbo_%28film%29 wields a Jutte, but only as a demonstration of his status as a (corrupt) officer, insisting that the character of Sanjuro seek employment as a warrior for one of the gambling gangs, though Sanjuro enforces the law in the movie more effectively than the constable himself!


 * And someone has simply gone and re-included the list. This is still trivia folks, and still a violation of WP:TRIV and WP:WPMA. Simply retitling it "In popular culture" does not absolve you of explaining why this data should remain in the article.  As is, it does not improve understanding of the subject, and is simply a list of fancruft appearances of the word in cartoons, games and comic books. I've removed it again, for the same reasons Bradford 44 did eight years ago. 12.233.147.42 (talk) 00:06, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Removed photo request
I added a photo of a Jutte and removed the previous photo, as this is more appropriate. --TorsodogTalk 05:09, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Mediation
This article is being mediated here. Due to a lack of responses from other parties, I have advised Samuraiantiqueworld to keep working on the article as seems necessary. If parties object to this, please voice that objection here and do not resort to edit warring or anything like that. Thank you. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:44, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

References for editors to read
Samuraiantiqueworld (talk) 23:35, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
 * 1 http://books.google.com/books?id=9SzJAAAACAAJ&dq=jutte&hl=en&ei=t-IPTbXyMoGclgfD6bm7DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA
 * 2 http://books.google.com/books?id=g5BP7DGuNFsC&pg=PA103&dq=jutte&hl=en&ei=t-IPTbXyMoGclgfD6bm7DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CD0Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=jutte&f=false
 * 3 http://books.google.com/books?id=7NoDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA63&dq=jutte&hl=en&ei=t-IPTbXyMoGclgfD6bm7DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CEcQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=jutte&f=false
 * 4 http://books.google.com/books?id=ZzIXkFec0e8C&pg=PA78&dq=jutte&hl=en&ei=LuMPTczzHIT7lwedlJGyDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCIQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=jutte&f=false
 * 5 http://books.google.com/books?id=ss8DAAAAMBAJ&pg=PT83&dq=jutte&hl=en&ei=LuMPTczzHIT7lwedlJGyDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CEsQ6AEwCDgK#v=onepage&q=jutte&f=true
 * 6 http://books.google.com/books?id=4tsDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA110&dq=jutte&hl=en&ei=NuQPTdidGoaglAe_ouWBDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CDwQ6AEwBjge#v=onepage&q=jutte&f=false
 * 7 http://books.google.com/books?id=ijLwtIeSJKMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=jutte&hl=en&ei=o-QPTZudBYWKlwfolsywDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CEEQ6AEwBjgo#v=onepage&q&f=true
 * 8 http://books.google.com/books?id=JXfVINMfbx8C&pg=PA199&dq=jutte&hl=en&ei=T-UPTZiUGMP7lwf9pMyJDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAjg8#v=onepage&q=jutte&f=false
 * 9 http://books.google.com/books?id=YSkQGC4wteAC&pg=PA36&dq=jutte&hl=en&ei=GOYPTYvyNMT7lwfj4_SEDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBjhu#v=onepage&q=jutte&f=false
 * 10 http://books.google.com/books?id=ZFf9e0DmHZUC&pg=PA312&dq=jitte&hl=en&ei=geYPTeeZCILGlQfepJS3DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=jitte&f=false
 * 11 http://books.google.com/books?id=sBWasQSsb-UC&pg=PA63&dq=jitte&hl=en&ei=geYPTeeZCILGlQfepJS3DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CEoQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=jitte&f=false
 * 12 http://books.google.com/books?id=JAFyAAAAMAAJ&q=jitte&dq=jitte&hl=en&ei=geYPTeeZCILGlQfepJS3DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CE8Q6AEwBw
 * 13 http://books.google.com/books?id=i0ni1NmbYe0C&pg=PA166&dq=jitte&hl=en&ei=geYPTeeZCILGlQfepJS3DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CFoQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=jitte&f=false
 * 14 http://books.google.com/books?id=adIDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA55&dq=jitte&hl=en&ei=geYPTeeZCILGlQfepJS3DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=11&ved=0CF8Q6AEwCg#v=onepage&q=jitte&f=false
 * 15 http://books.google.com/books?id=bbAb-7yDj5cC&pg=PA269&dq=jitte&hl=en&ei=P-cPTZL0O8H7lweI9ujFDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCIQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=jitte&f=false
 * 16 http://www.samuraiweapons.org/Jutte_Samurai.php
 * http://www.e-budokai.com/weapons/jutte2.htm
 * 17 http://shinseidojo.wordpress.com/2009/10/06/roles-and-techniques-of-the-police-during-the-edo-period-1603-1867-by-dr-kacem-zoughari/
 * 18 http://books.google.com/books?id=ZzIXkFec0e8C&pg=PA94&dq=tanbo&hl=en&ei=RaMlTeu0D8ys8Ab4tuDqAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=snippet&q=neashi&f=false
 * 19 http://books.google.com/books?id=wExlaM1ov0sC&pg=PA128&dq=hachiwara&hl=en&ei=TeEmTeyfKsH58Aa84fH6AQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=hachiwara&f=true

Awkward Sentence
The sentence "This law applied to everyone except the shogun's sons and hatamoto, including the palace guards." is almost impossible to parse. Does it mean, the hatamoto (including the palace guards) were excluded? That makes the next part nonsensical, but does seem to be the most obvious reading of the sentence. Instead, I think it means everyone was prohibited except sones and hatamoto, and the prohibition included the palace guards. Perhaps it should read "This law applied to everyone (except the shogun's sons and hatamoto), including the palace guards." It is still ugly, but it reads more clearly. Or maybe even, for the sake of clarity, drop some of the detail and just write "This law applied to nearly everyone, including the palace guards." We don't really need the specific exclusions here, so this works even better. (By the way, this whole section is word-for-word from the web page cited, which seems a bit like plagiarism. I am going to change this one sentence, but the rest may need to be cleane dup too to avoid unattributed, um, "borrowing" from another source.) 76.111.27.52 (talk) 07:37, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was moved. With the dust settled, I see one editor opposing this move, with two skeptical neutrals. I am excluding the sockpuppet, of course. While usage still seems mixed in English, there does seem to be consensus for the move as proposed. --BDD (talk) 18:50, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Jutte → Jitte – The actual name is "jitte" (十手). "Jutte" is a misspelling along the lines of "Tokio". --Relisted. Wilhelm Meis (&#9742; Diskuss &#124; &#x270D; Beiträge) 04:44, 4 May 2013 (UTC) Konjakupoet (talk) 13:47, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment "Tokio" isn't a mispelling, it's a different romanization scheme. -- 70.24.250.103 (talk) 22:58, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It's an inaccurate different romanization scheme that doesn't differentiate between the vowel -i and the consonant -y-. And most of the time it is used (in English, anyway), it is in the same sources that for more obscure words and names stick strictly to some form of Hepburn, so it can't be treated as a different romanization system in those cases. Konjakupoet (talk) 03:22, 21 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment what about Juttejutsu ? -- 70.24.250.103 (talk) 22:58, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't know. That article doesn't cite its sources. But the word "juttejutsu" doesn't appear in any of my Japanese dictionaries. And no one in Japan seems to think that the word is pronounced "juttejutsu": 7 hits for "Juttejutsu" -Wikipedia < 579 hits for "Jittejutsu" -Wikipedia. Konjakupoet (talk) 03:22, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Japanese language results are frankly irrelevant in determining English usage. Many words borrowed into English are corrupted but it is not Wikipedia's job to prescribe usage. —  AjaxSmack   04:00, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The above post was about a separate word. Honestly if we can't use professional, scholarly sources in Japanese and are limited to martial arts magazines, then Wikipedia is doomed. Konjakupoet (talk) 10:38, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * No, Wikipedia is not doomed. It is a general (not a scholarly) reference work that reflects common English usage, whether scholars agree or not. —  AjaxSmack   01:55, 22 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose without further rationale . Almost all of the article's sources use jutte.  See also the latter part of this section above for more info on the spelling and pronunciation.  —  AjaxSmack   02:20, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Check Japanese Wikipedia. The Japanese dictionaries Daijisen and Meikyō Kokugo Jiten, as well as the encyclopedias Britannica and My Pedia, and the J-E dictionary Progressive Wa-Ei-chū Jiten all say it is pronounced jitte and make no reference to jutte. It appears this is another case like "jigai" and where "Cool Japan" books written by westerners who don't speak Japanese and don't live here have picked up some mistaken understanding of the meanings of Japanese words and it found its way onto Wikipedia. Konjakupoet (talk) 03:08, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Additionally, see GBooks and GScholar for the evidence that even though this misunderstanding is widespread, the spelling "jitte" still wins out in terms of reliable sources. (The vast majority of the [results for "Jutte" by itself yielded books written by people with the name "Jutte" that had nothing to do with Japan, so the qualifier Edo weaponry is needed.) Konjakupoet (talk) 03:22, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Good points but English Wikipedia treats Japanese usage as less relevant than English usage and dictionary entries of Japanese pronunciation are not considered acceptable evidence of English usage. The Google results are more convincing but, when I use "'Jutte' samurai weaponry" and "'Jitte' samurai weaponry" as search terms, I get aa over 2:1 majority of hits for "Jutte". —  AjaxSmack   04:00, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia uses reliable sources, regardless of language. There are hardly any reliable sources on this subject readily available in English, but thousands in Japanese. By including the phrase "samurai weapon" you have biased your results in favour of unscholarly "Cool Japan" books and magazines. The jitte was not a "samurai weapon" -- it was a weapon used by police enforcers (捕吏, which are not the same thing as samurai) during the Edo period. Konjakupoet (talk) 05:57, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I checked your results: of the first 50 hits for each, 40 for "jutte" are just different issues of the non-academic martial arts magazine Black Belt, compared to only 21 for "jitte". "Jitte" also came up with hits in the highly-respected Japanese studies journal Monumenta Nipponics well-known multilingual magazine Nipponia. Konjakupoet (talk) 07:22, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Complete analysis: It was actually 28/83 for "jitte" come from Black Belt, compared to 113/153 for "jutte". Additionally, several of the more reliable-ish non-Black Belt sources that use "jutte" make it subordinate to "jitte". So basically if we disregard this one non-scholarly magazine, we are left with not a 2:1 majority for "jutte", but a 55:40 majority for "jitte". Additionally, I forgot that GBooks search results estimates are usually completely bogus: for my earlier search, the results were actually 35>15 in favour of "jitte". Konjakupoet (talk) 07:41, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't find your arguments extremely convincing. Wikipedia is a general reference and not a scholarly work.  And the Japanese pronunciation is irrelevant if said pronunciation is not reflected in English usage (cf. ginkgo, yen, rickshaw).  I got the info on samurai usage from the sourced intro of the Wikipedia article.  However, I will withdraw opposition and let others decide on the merits. —  AjaxSmack   01:55, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Are you serious? The word rickshaw comes from Japanese?? *looks* Oh my stars, it does. Wow! Thank you! Never would've guessed... *walks away marveling* ... Red Slash 15:23, 4 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose, Don Cunningham who is a recognized authority on these weapons discusses why this is called "jutte" and not "jitte" then the is the fact that another weapon which is similar to the "jutte" is called "jitte". He discusses this in his book Taiho-Jutsu p.73 for anyone who is interested in reading that section. . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkness walks (talk • contribs) 05:07, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * NOTE: Darkness walks was found after posting the above oppose !vote to be a block-evading sockpuppet. Konjakupoet (talk) 18:11, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Don Cunningham is not a scholar of Japanese history. He is an English lecturer. Any Japanese dictionary will tell you that this word is pronounced jitte. Please explain why you think these "Cool Japan" books are reliable sources? Additionally, the link you gave is not referring to this word (十手), but to the separate (made-up?) word jutte (術手). Konjakupoet (talk) 05:57, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

--karakuri jitte--
 * Comment:Konjakupoet, you either do not do very reliable research or you are deliberately adding misleading statements, Don Cunningham a well respected author on the subject of Japanese weapons, he has written three books on the subject, he is a PHD and an associate professor at Radford University, and an adjunct professor at Virginia Tech's Language and Cultural Institute, hardly a "lecturer" He also lived in Japan for many years, he researched his book with help from curators and scholars at Meiji university's criminology museum, Fukogawa Museum and the Japanese National Museum. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkness walks (talk • contribs) 08:08, 23 April 2013
 * Support per all the reliable sources I can find and the ones I own have "jitte" as the correct pronunciation. "Jutte" is simply a corruption of that. ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 06:16, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - About 1,500 GB results jitte + sword vs jutte + sword 800 results 2001-2012 ; seems that more recent sources are spelling the sword per standard Japanese. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:04, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * FACT:There is another weapon which is named jitte, p.36 of Classical weaponry of Japan: special weapons and tactics of the martial arts By Serge Mol devotes a section to this weapon, clearly a completely separate weapon from the jutte, there are several different varieties of jitte shown. Serge Mol has written several books and he has lived in Japan for years and is a fluent speaker of Japanese as well as having a Japanese wife, he has studied and practiced martial arts in Japan. He provides a detailed history and usage of this weapon. There are pictures of several different types and well as pictures of it being used, how can you rename an article to a name that already has a weapon with that name. What if someone were to write an article about this particular weapon, what then??? Here is a link to a similar jitte that sold online.
 * COMPROMISE, I think that under these circumstances the best thing to do would be to add a section in the jutte article were people like Konja can explain why they feel the wording in incorrect, I would have no problem with that.Darkness walks (talk) 08:08, 23 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose Although the correct Romanization of the Japanese pronunciation is Jitte, an article title is determined by the most common English name rather than the correctness of Romanization. According to the Google Book search, the most common English name is Jutte.
 * "Jutte" weapon 1,500
 * "Jitte" weapon 980
 * ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 12:43, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Could you try that again with some restrictions like "-Wikipedia" and so on? IIO and myself have already pointed out that in GoogleBooks, and I noticed your results include such things as "www.narutoforums.com". Konjakupoet (talk) 13:14, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry, KP, but Ajax has got it right. WP:COMMONNAME says we use the name most commonly used in English-language sources, regardless of how it appears in sources in other languages, even the language from which the term was adopted, and with little weight to how it appears in glossaries or Japanese-English dictionaries. Remember, interlingual dictionaries are tertiary sources, so they have narrower applications to WP articles. Since secondary sources are preferred for researching/writing an article, they also get preference for naming the article.  I see where you're coming from, KP, but for better or worse, the convention on en.WP is to give strong preference to English sources over those in the topic's source language.  Sometimes it's frustrating to me too, when the English sources butcher terms from another language, but WP is descriptive, not prescriptive. Wilhelm Meis (&#9742; Diskuss &#124; &#x270D; Beiträge) 16:59, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry, no, not in this case. IIO and I already pointed out, this subject is best-known in reliable sources by its correct name jitte. The majority of the results in Phoenix7777's above search are Wikipedia mirrors, random blogs and message boards, and other websites that don't meet WP:RS. "Google Books ... is a better measure than a normal Google search". Konjakupoet (talk) 14:56, 24 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment Ajax has withdrawn his oppose !vote, but this is still kind of . He commented before withdrawing his vote that all of the sources currently cited in the article use jutte rather than jitte. This is actually completely wrong, as I will demonstrate.

Of the nine sources currently in the article:

(1) Kirby & Lee is of questionable reliability. "Ohara Publications" is a perhaps-notable publication of martial arts books (not history books) that seems to have been inactive since the late 1980s.

(2) Turnbull uses jitte and not jutte.

(3) Cunningham (as cited by the blocked sockpuppet DW above) appears to use jutte, but he clearly establishes that he means 十手 ("ten-hands"), which is always read as jitte, and (perhaps mistakenly) claims that jitte is written as 実手 ("truth-hand").

(4) Mol uses jutte, but makes a similar mistake to Cunningham, thinking that jitte is a different weapon/written with a different kanji.

(5) Deal use jitte and not jutte.

(6) Pauley & Pauley uses both, apparently with no preference, even specifically stating that the jutte is also known as jitte.

(7) Louis & Ito use jutte -- can't argue with that.

(8) vancouverjujitsu.org cites Kirby & Lee as its only source, and if we use the home pages of random martial arts schools as sources for our military history articles we are going to get into trouble down the road.

(9) guildwiki.org, judging from its name, almost certainly fails WP:RS.

So of 7 independent, possibly-reliable sources (dismissing vancouverjujitsu.org as subordinate to Kirby & Lee, and guildwiki.org as a wiki) we have 2 that prefer jitte, 1 that uses both, 2 that prefer jutte, and 2 that use both but prefer jutte but really seem to prefer jitte because their authors don't appear to know what they're talking about. And one of the two that prefer jutte doesn't even belong because it only backs up a dictionary-definition. Konjakupoet (talk) 15:11, 25 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I think you're conflating a few sourcing issues here. You said Ajax wrongly stated that all of the sources currently cited in the article use jutte rather than jitte (in fact Ajax said "almost all [emphasis added] of the article's sources use jutte," saying nothing about them not using jitte.)  Please do not put words in another editor's mouth.  As you pointed out here, seven of the nine do use jutte and three use jitte (the one source calling them synonymous).  So Ajax was not wrong in his statement (the way he stated it).  Impeaching the credibility or reliability of some of the article's current sources is a separate issue from Ajax's comment, though still germane to this discussion.  I would tend to agree that a wiki and a martial arts school with no apparent scholarly notability on the topic both probably fail WP:RS.  What about adding any new sources?  Do you have any other authoritative secondary sources not yet represented here, and what term(s) do they use for this article's topic? Wilhelm Meis (&#9742; Diskuss &#124; &#x270D; Beiträge) 17:30, 25 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I like your assumption of bad faith. It was a mistake on my part: I had forgotten Ajax's exact words. But he was misrepresenting the facts: most of the sources currently cited in the article using jutte, doesn't mean they don't use jitte as well. And the jutte sources are still also ultimately wrong. Please stop ignoring all of the arguments we have offered in favour of moving: all of the accurate, reliable sources only give jitte. Why should we give preference to inaccurate, vanity-level materials? I get the feeling that one martial arts magazine will publish anything written by anyone with a blue belt, without checking whether they understand Japanese language or history. Normal people don't have a problem with us using the correct spelling, and there are apparently not all that many people who think we should follow the martial arts magazines. I like what Green Cardamon said on this issue several months back. Konjakupoet (talk) 17:17, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * No assumption of bad faith here. I saw your post that mischaracterized another editor's post and I called you out on it.  I know you mean well, and I'm sure that was just an accidental oversight, but it was worth pointing out.  Ajax said most of the sources currently (at the time of his post) included in the article use jutte, and that was true (7 out of 9 is most of the sources).  That doesn't mean we can't drop some unreliable sources from the article and add some more reliable sources to it.  I was, in my own way, inviting you to do just that.  For all I know, most of the reliable sources in the world may use jitte, but I would need to see some evidence one way or the other of just what the prevailing spelling is in English sources. Wilhelm Meis (&#9742; Diskuss &#124; &#x270D; Beiträge) 21:59, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * As for the cited etymology section above -- if there's one thing that's worse than Wikipedians citing published authors who don't really know Japanese, it's Wikipedians speculating based on their own elementary-level Japanese study. I'm not blaming these Wikipedians: in 2005 my Japanese was no better. But Wikipedians speculating on Japanese pronunciation is not a reliable source. Konjakupoet (talk) 16:17, 25 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment: I don't see a clear indication of common name one way or the other. I am not an authority on the topic of this article and I would not presume to have the final word on which sources are reliable and which are not.  That being said, just looking at the numbers available on Google book and scholarly article searches, I do not see any strong indication of a WP:COMMONNAME one way or the other. For convenience, I have linked some search results below. Wilhelm Meis (&#9742; Diskuss &#124; &#x270D; Beiträge) 22:45, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Books: samurai jitte (818 hits)
 * Books: samurai jutte (858 hits)
 * Scholar: samurai jitte (104)
 * Scholar: samurai jutte (75 hits)
 * That doesn't show us anything new. Please read what I said to Ajax above again: almost all of the (230 odd) results you got for jutte are separate issues of the same magazine. If the Wikipedia community can take one magazine's using the incorrect spelling as demonstrating that this is the WP:COMMONNAME, fine. But please remember what happened to when Wikipedians decided that when we have some sources in English that give false information, and other sources that point out that that information is false, we should not give the false information its own article. Konjakupoet (talk) 02:45, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay, but then when I use your suggested search terms on Google Scholar, (eliminating "Black Belt") I still get 352 hits for jutte edo weapon -"black belt" and only 49 hits for jitte edo weapon -"black belt". I'm not trying to be obtuse. I just honestly don't see the evidence that jitte is more commonly used than jutte. I would be happy to go along with jitte, but I'd have to see some better evidence of its prominence. Wilhelm Meis (&#9742; Diskuss &#124; &#x270D; Beiträge) 03:08, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I honestly don't know why, but the way you searched, your results for "jutte" included countless results that contain some word or code that barely resembles the word "jutte", but the "jitte" results were all accurate. If you add inverted commas to "jitte" and "jutte", the results become 49>26 in favour of the former. (Your results appear to have included numerous instances of the names "Jute", "Jutta", "Jutte" - not the weapon - and so on. Further, even including "Black Belt" there appears to be little change in the results.) Konjakupoet (talk) 10:46, 28 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support Long-time lurker, first real time poster, here... Forgive any formatting errors, please. When I first saw this article, I was perplexed at the constant usage of "Jutte" instead of "Jitte" and started doing my own research into various resources. In agreement with Konjakupoet above, the very first problem with people using any search engine to search these terms, including on Google Books: Jutte is a not-uncommon last name that also comes up, and there are even books that come up without relevance to the weapon in question. Wilhelm Meis, above, links a search of "Samurai Jutte". The -very first result- is a publication from General Books, LLC, which WP:Commonname specifically notes, "When using Google, generally a search of Google Books and News Archive should be defaulted to before a web search, as they concentrate reliable sources (exclude works from Books, LLC when searching Google Books[5])([5] states, "Add this code in the search: -inauthor:"Books, LLC" (the quotes " " are essential); Books, LLC "publishes" compilations of WP articles."). The sixth result (excluding magazines; Black Belt magazine is a self-published item that never cites any reputable references, and thus while acceptable for a self-source is NOT acceptable as a continued reference outside itself, as per WP:BLP and WP:Identifying_reliable_sources) returns the book, "Ultimate Mind Control" which, as Black Belt, is not a reputable source and does not cite sources (It also includes such things as "Suggestology"... Take that as you will).


 * Another commonly cited work, Taiho-jutsu, written by Don Cunningham, references absolutely no sources, only his own knowledge- As do the other two of his works. Within the world of budojutsu, I would agree that he could potentially serve as a reputable source (though, again, would prefer to just go to the Budokan instructors that taught him in the first place, themselves) but he is not in any way a linguist. He has degrees in journalism and his PhD is in Technical Communications; Both these things illustrate he knows how to -product sensationalist material that people will buy into-, not that he knows how to teach anything to anyone- especially on the semantics of jitte/jutte. His [i]experience as a member of the Budokai[/i] is what gives him the knowledge to teach [i]Judo[/i], nothing more.


 * Further, if you search " Jutte -inauthor:"Books, LLC" -inauthor:"Robert Jütte" -inauthor:"Jütte" -inauthor:"Jitte" -inauthor:Jütte -inauthor:Jitte -inpublisher:"Books, LLC" -inpublisher:"Robert Jütte" -inpublisher:"Jütte" -inpublisher:"Jitte" -inpublisher:Jütte -inpublisher:Jitte " which aims to remove all authors and publishers with the name Jutte, Jitte, or Jütte (Due to complications arising from inclusion of irrelevant material), and even specifically targets the author Robert Jütte, it -does not remove him or any other such author or publisher from the search-. In fact, looking at the top ten results for Jutte in this case returns THREE un-related books, specifically "Poverty and Deviance in Early Modern Europe" by Robert Jutte, "Generalized Synthesis Methodology of Nonlinear Springs for Prescribed Load-Displacement Functions" by Christine Vehar Jutte, and "International competitiveness of the Polish food sector" by Ieroen Jutte. This is unacceptable. Even just the simple "Jutte NOT Jütte" shows that it completely ignores the accent and treats it as a normal character, and then ignores the -inauthor et al search operators completely.


 * Adding the search term "Edo" to the search, however, seems to refine the search far better than trying to exclude any authors or publishers to try and deal with Google's irritating and not-quite-working search operator structure... and returns something that I've expected all along, as well (Note: This is STRICTLY "Jutte Edo" and " "Jitte" Edo" ( "Jitte" in brackets because google ikes to try and do the near-correct "jitter" and gets a number of hits from there), no search operators, since they seem to fail hard). With 100 results/page, Jutte Edo returns 87 results total. Refining it to exclude any non-English returns a mere 55 results (still removing magazines), of which there are a number that STILL reference Jutte as a last name (Mostly books that involve law in some fashion, or are citing a work by an author named Jutte and an author named Edo... though the interesting case of the seventh book is a novel titled, "Mutants of Bain"). Doing the same with "Jitte" Edo returns 82 results, of which I note three (one on self contracting(???), San Francisco Symphony (The image capture software caught "Briggite" and apparently severed the 'g' into 'cj') and lastly, the Lay of Havelok the Dane (?!? The hell?).


 * Looking FURTHER into the etymology, 十 can be read many, many different ways depending on just how it's used. The on'yomi (音読み, lit. "Sound Reading", defined as the Japanese reading of the original Chinese pronounciation) alone of the first grade Kyōiku kanji "十" is じゅう (jū), but it also じっ (jit) and じゅっ (jut). Over at Forvo a /native Japanese speaker/ pronounces it "ji", not "ju"- though I can't say it is acceptable as a verifiable third party source... other than to say Forvo typically is a good source of pronounciations, given that the speakers typically are from the country of the language being pronounced. I don't think it could be used as an official source, however, but I felt it appropriate to mention at the least.


 * This to me supports all the material I've experienced in my life, that being that it is read Jitte. KainYusanagi (talk) 16:05, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Relisted
Okay folks, I didn't want to see the discussion end there, so I got the consent of the closer to reopen the move request and relist for one week. That means we have one week from now to come to some conclusion! I would like to thank KainYusanagi for his/her contribution to the discussion, and I am eager to see more evidence of what the WP:COMMONNAME for this topic may be. As for myself, I am still not ready to cast a !vote just yet, but I would like to see the discussion reach its own end before the RM gets closed again. So let's keep it going! Thank you to all the editors who have been involved so far. Wilhelm Meis (&#9742; Diskuss &#124; &#x270D; Beiträge) 04:50, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

v sai
This section should be added.

I am no expert so to me for example, a matched pair of iron jutte and two kagi (that is in the picture) looks exactly like sai. Differences between weapons should be discussed in the article. 185.18.60.16 (talk) 20:22, 7 March 2020 (UTC)