Talk:Jitterbug

Untitled
This article has been renamed as the result of a move request.

elsewhere
Good info. Can anyone add stuff about the jitterbug elsewhere in the world ?.Johncmullen1960 08:36, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Also it would be useful to have a description of what is particular to this dance. When it was introduced, what was new about it. Johncmullen1960 (talk) 12:05, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

It seems logical that American troops would also have introduced the dance to Austrailia and Japan. Finding references, though, is not so easy. Regarding a description... It would be a repeating of information in the Lindy Hop article. But not quite. Better to leave it to the Lindy page. It would be a can of worms. Steve Pastor (talk) 21:22, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

See Also List
I wouldn't mind it if someone would liberally crop the See Also list of this page. It's a bit excessive and not really helpful (e.g. would I really want to click on Groucho after searching for Jitterbug?)  Personally, I don't feel like any of the dance moves really belong in this list. I'll be bold sometime soon unless someone has objections. --Will.i.am 08:27, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I cut out most of it. Feel free to remove some more if you want. —Cswrye 13:46, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
 * 10x better, thanks! I'm also going to remove the "technique" links, but they can go back in if you want.--Will.i.am 23:29, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Please add more data about the postage stamp.

Jitterbug Wireless

&#91;&#91; hopiakuta &#124; &#91;&#91; &#91;&#91;%c2%a1]] &#91;&#91;%c2%bf]] &#91;&#91; %7e%7e%7e%7e ]] -]] 11:57, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

pages swapped. (Discussion closed by Muchness 21:04 July 22, 2007 UTC).

Requested move
Jitterbug (dance) → Jitterbug — Suggest removing the parenthetical clarifier since this article is the primary topic. There's no salvageable encyclopedic content at jitterbug. —Muchness 15:28, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.


 * Support per nomination. —  AjaxSmack     01:28, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Short Rationale: The history for both pages is preserved. Long Rationale: The original Jitterbug page was created by User:204.134.0.183 at 06:05, 30 December 2002 and was about the dance. Jitterbug (dance) was created by User: 172.192.215.106 at 03:29, 19 February 2004 (a 5th grader according to the original page) who was playing around with Wikipedia. It should have been deleted but the text was changed by User:Fuzheado at 03:35, 19 February 2004 to be about the dance. Thus, two pages about the same topic were developed simultaneously until 23:56, 28 June 2006 when User: Will.i.am changed Jitterbug into a redirect to Jitterbug (dance), instead of the other way around. At 23:56, 28 June 2006 User: Will.i.am then merged info from Jitterbug into Jitterbug (dance). I don't know the reason for moving the info in the direction it went but it might have been because more people were editing Jitterbug (dance) than Jitterbug, by 2006 there were other pages that included "Jitterbug" in its title (e.g., The Jitterbug, Jitterbug Wireless, etc), and someone may have been planning to change Jitterbug into a disambiguation page. They probably forgot to create a disambiguation page so now I've created Jitterbug (disambiguation). Currently, all of the links from other wikipages to Jitterbug refer to the dance and not some other meaning of the word. So it makes more sense to copy all of the text back to Jitterbug, where it started, and change Jitterbug (dance) into a redirect to Jitterbug. –panda 20:36, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Why not just copy all of the text from Jitterbug (dance) back to Jitterbug and change Jitterbug (dance) to a redirect to Jitterbug?
 * The problem with your proposal is that copy and pasting text to move or swap articles splits their edit histories, making old revisions, notes, and attributions harder to keep track of. The issue has been elegantly resolved by DanMS, who swapped the articles. --Muchness 21:04, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Any additional comments:

Regarding Recent Undos and the subject of Music
In a message on my talk page Panda wrote "AFAIK, people have danced "jitterbug" to many types of music, including big band swing music, western swing music, rock & roll, rockabilly, country western, blues, hip hop, etc -- it all depends on which dance is meant by jitterbug. It's not clear to me that the page should list all of these different types of music since the page is about an ambiguous dance style."
 * This article is hardly too long considering the fact the the term "jitterbug" was being used to decribe swing-like dancing into the 60s. Except hip hop (and quite possibly country western(another discussion)), I agree with all of the musical genres that Panda lists. Music and dance are very much connected, and where a dance term covers such a wide range of music, and several to many decades, information about that music should be part of any article that claims to be anything more than a summary.
 * I expected to be challenged on the 'people did jitterbug to Western Swing' statement, and would not have posted it if there hadn't been a reference. I doubt that it is common knowledge among the general public. The quote is still in the article, but it has been taken out of context, and is being used an example of the word being used as a verb.
 * I hope that we can come to an understanding on how to broaden the scope of this article without turning it into a laundry list of this and that. Steve Pastor 21:43, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The music that people dance to is naturally necessary when describing a specific dance style but jitterbug isn't a specific dance style just like "swing dance". So it would make more sense to include music information on the Swing (dance) page or when describing a specific dance style.  AFAIK, not all of the dances that have been called jitterbug are covered on this page yet and jitterbuggers essentially danced to whatever 4/4 music was available to them and popular at the time (the music doesn't have to swing but it normally does).
 * OTOH, if you know the specific dance style the dancers were doing in the Western Swing article, it would make a lot of sense to include it here as an example of the different dances that have been called jitterbug. If Country & Western Swing is the same as Western Swing music, then the fact that swing dancers dance to Western Swing music is mentioned in Swing (dance) and West Coast Swing. My guess is that the dancers in the article were dancing a variant of Lindy Hop to Western Swing music, a dance that eventually became West Coast Swing (also known as Western Swing or Jitterbug in the 1940s, see the History of WCS) but I wouldn't know for sure.
 * Another idea that just occurred to me is putting in a timeline with info about when and where jitterbug was used. panda 15:53, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Trying to give this a good home after having to go back and find it for another purpose. "Jitterbug was also done to Western Swing in the 1940s . "People were top notch jitterbugging, jumping around, cutting loose and going crazy" to Western Swing being played at the Venice Pier Ballroom, the Riverside Rancho in Los Feliz, and the Santa Monica Ballroom, all in the Los Angeles area.Steve Pastor (talk) 22:42, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Jitterbug2
Mikka: This was no simple cut and paste. Phrases were used, but they have been significantly rearrranged. And, you surely checked the reference on troop numbers. You deleted that also. Please tell me which phrases you think are simple cut and paste. This is an important development in the history of "jitterbug". If you wish to add similar information that you don't consider simple cut and paste, please do so. Oh, is there an offical, number of words that are exactly the same as the reference policy that qualifies something as cut and paste? Please point me to that algorithm. I'm beginning to understand why this article is still a stub. Steve Pastor 23:44, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * "Phrases were used"..."rearranged" : Yep. It is copyright violation by all books. You must write in your own words. The second problem I pointed at in your talk page is unknown authorship. Once again, see WP:RS' policy. "I'm beginning to understand why this article is still a stub.": most probably you are mistaken. The real reason is that the history of modern dance is very poorly presented in dance books. You may find wealth of useless information about 18th century dance printed, but people do not conclusively know who invented Salsa. Copying texts from unverified websites does disservice by introducing high probability of propagating misinformation and urban legends. `'Míkka 00:03, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

There is little doubt that there were millions of American servicemen deployed overseas during WWII. There is also little doubt that there continued to be hundreds of thousands of troops in Europe through the 1950s. You chose to delete an entire section, including, as I wrote before information on Cold War deployments that is not even mentioned in the first reference. I understand that is it easier to just delete something than to discuss it, but based on my experience, it is not very productive. Maybe next time you could note that, maybe if I reworded this a bit, it would be acceptable. That way, everybody could benefit. The history modern of dance is not nearly as confusing as you write. You don't accept that fact that millions of Amercian servicemen being in England affected how people in England danced? You don't accept the fact that hundreds of thousands of American servicemen being in Europe during the Cold War affected European tastes in music and dance, and that a dance style such as LeRoc has roots in American Jitterbug? I urge you, as well a panda, to ease up on the undo feature and think more about how we can make this article better rather than blasting anything on sight. I am willing to correct things that are pointed out in a discussion. That's what the discussion tab is there for. Outright deletion does not create a very cooperative atmosphere. Based on my own reaction to recent events, I can tell you that would be contributors will be more likely to stay away from pages that are being ruthlessly policed. Especially people who have been around for a while and come to the table with references. While you may be satisfied that there is no "coyright infringement" or information from "unknown sources", you are pushing away people who are trying to make a contribution. Steve Pastor 20:26, 18 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I am entering this conversation only because Pastor brought me up.
 * People get their contributions deleted all of the time. It's not that big of a deal.  One of the purposes of Wikipedia is to allow for quick peer review and alteration of contributions to satisfy the majority of its readers and authors.
 * The only contribution I removed of your's was a duplication of text that was already in the article. Yes, I removed the text about Western Swing and have already told you why -- at the time I assumed that you were interested in adding the quote to the article since it was about jitterbugging.  If you believe it is important to include Western Swing in the article, you could include it in a list of music styles that people have danced jitterbug to.
 * No one is refuting that American troops stationed in Europe were instrumental in the spread of Swing dance to Europe. What Míkka noticed was that you had copied and pasted text from elsewhere.  Also, as Mikka pointed out, there is a ton of misinformation about swing dance on the web and we should all be careful about where we find information.  If not all of the text that you wrote was copied from elsewhere and came from a reliable source, then feel free to replace that part.
 * A tip: there are several Citation templates that can be used when including references. While you don't have to use them, it would be much more informative than a simple link to a website.
 * –panda 22:50, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Ahem... "Avoid reverts and deletions whenever possible... Explain reversions in the edit summary box. Amend, edit, discuss." [| etiquette]Steve Pastor 20:56, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Ahem you too. Copyright violation is a serious issue and beyond any discussion. I could have nitpicked the copied sentences one by one, but imagine what the remaining text would look like. Please don't see this as an offense. I am a devoted WCS dancer myself (only social) and would gladly see any useful, coherent info in wikipedia. Even Skippy Blair doesn't have an article, not to say about WSC championships and champions, and other dance stuff. `'Míkka 21:52, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

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In general, extensive quotation of copyrighted news materials (such as newspapers and wire services), movie scripts, or any other copyrighted text is not "fair use" and is prohibited by Wikipedia policy.

Example Original text:

"The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. Editors should provide a reliable source for material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or it may be removed." (Wikipedia:Verifiability, 2007)

Quote:

"The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. (...) Editors should provide a reliable source for [potentially controversial content] or it may be removed." (Wikipedia:Verifiability, 2007; emphasis in original)

- end quoted material from copyright, etc policy

Unless you interpret this example as something that ISN'T allowable, the two sentences that were deleted follow this example pretty closely - minus the (...). My interpretation of this is that this example is something that is permissible. The word "extensive quotation" is the operable phrase, in my opinion. What do you think? Steve Pastor 23:00, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * First of all, a quotation must be clearly shown as quotation: quotation marks and stuff. Second, the quotation must be from a reliable source by wikipedia standards. A quotation from an unsigned page of a random website is bound to be deleted. A quotation from a website of a recognized dance historian will survive. `'Míkka 02:28, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

early 1900s
"During the early 1900s, the term became associated with swing dancers who danced without any control or knowledge of the dance." The phrase "early 1900s" is pretty vague. Although there were proto swing dances, swing didn't get big until the late 20s into the 30s. Surely, we don't want people to think the term was used to fefer to dancers to, for instance, ragtime, or the Charleston? I would prefer definate years, or at least what part of a decade to avoid confusion. My inclusion of the Cab Calloway song and film are examples. Comments? Steve Pastor 18:19, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree that there should be a more definitive time range but in the interview Al Minns didn't say exactly when it was used that way. I would assume that he meant at the time Lindy Hop was very popular in the 1930s-1940s.  (For added perspective, Al Minns was 10 years old in 1930.)  If you'd like to clarify that Jitterbug was first used after Lindy Hop became a popular dance, then that would make it clear that someone dancing one of the earlier dances is not jitterbugging. panda 18:58, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Calloway's Jitterbug Party and the Jitterbugs quote
IMDB has a date of 1935, as do some other sources, for Party. Meanwhile these sources with edu extensions have a date of 1934. I lean towards using the edu reference dates of 1934.
 * Regarding who did the "They look like" quote, in a 1997 Norma Miller and Frankie Manning interview, Norma associates it with Benny Goodman who didn't play the Paramont until 1936.

, but states that is the way she got it, so she didn't hear it herself. Steve Pastor 16:26, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * According to the video, Cab Calloway's Jitterbug Party is copyright MCMXXXV, which would make it 1935. panda 12:13, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * BTW, you can see the video of Cab Calloway's Jitterbug Party in The Best of Jazz & Blues, published by Kino International. panda 19:12, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

USA postage stamp
A few years ago, a 33-cent U.S. postage stamp commemorated the jitterbug. Probably worth a mention somewhere. (Are images of stamps "fair use"? Can someone find a link to one?) Typofixer76 (talk) 16:25, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

The delirium tremens theory
On 6 October 2006 this was added to the article: «''Jitterbug was a early twentieth century slang term used to describe alcholics who suffered from the "Jitters" Delirium Tremens. ''» and on 22 July 2007 it was added a "citation needed tag. Since then the theory has been left in peace and it is about time the tag was removed.

I have been unable to find basis for the delirium tremens theory. I find it probable that patients suffering from delirium tremens possibly can have the jitters as The Oxford English Dictionary (oed.com) explains the verb jitter as «To move in an agitated manner; to exhibit alarm, to act in a nervous way, to get the ‘jitters’.» or «To propel by nervous energy; to fluster» or «To subject (a series of pulses, or some characteristic of it) to rapid variation» and the noun as «'' (usu. the jitters). Extreme nervousness, nervous incapacity; a state of emotional and (often) physical tension; agitation.» and jittery as «adj. nervy, jumpy, upset, ‘on edge’;'' ». The OED quotes showing usage does however not include delirium tremens and they state that the origin of the word jitter is unknown. Furthermore the OED states that jitterbug is a combination of jitter and bug and they do not use quotes refering til delirium tremens. Their first quotation is Cab Calloway in 1934.

Dictionary of American Slang (Harold Wentworth and Stuart Berg Flexner (1975) ISBN 0 690 00670 5) is also devoid of any delirium tremens connections and the book explains the jitters as «Nervousness; fear; cowardice.». Both Wentworth and Flexner and the OED uses the same 1929 example from (Strictly Dishonorable (play)) as their oldest quotation using the word jitters.

Since I have been unable to find a citation verifying the theory that the origin of the word jitterbug has anything to do with delirium tremens I will remove the delirium tremens theory (including the citation needed tag) and instead include information found in these two reliable sources about usage and origin of jitter, jitters and finally jitterbug.-- ツツDyveldi ☯ prattle  ✉ post 20:24, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

If you want to keep looking you will find it written about in The Jazz Baron by Timme Rosenkrantz. His book, written in Danish, was only recently translated into English. Then there is the lyric, referring to "Father" White..."now here's old father, a wicked old man, drinks more sauce than the other mugs can, he drinks jittersauce every morn, that's why jittersauce was born, see him shake with his trombone, just cant leave that sauce alone, get along father you just mug, you'll always be a jitterbug" Steve Pastor (talk) 23:26, 7 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the tip, I'll read the book when i get hold of it (do you have a page/chapter to look at?). I can't use speculation or conjecture, I can't speculate in the meaning of a poem/song and say that how I read it is a fact. I must use the cited soures faithfully or simply quote them. I'll modify, the delirium tremens (DT) theory is far to specific and rules out all other alcohol related connections and all else. DT is a medical condition and the DT article says: «Withdrawal reactions due to physical dependence on alcohol are the most dangerous and can be fatal. They often lead to physical effects including shivering, palpitations, sweating and in some cases, convulsions and death if not treated.» A good and proper DT can land the patient in a coffin if not treated. I doubt that anybody suffering from DT is able to play any musical instrument let alone a trombone or rather that I would call the result music. A good and solid hangover is something different and can make people pretty shaky as well, but a solid hangover is not DT. A very common (although not advisable) cure for a hangover is more alcohol, which tallys very well with the poem. I can' write that. It would be me doing original research and speculating in the meaning of a poem.


 * The OED states origin unknown and they are among the top world experts on the English language. But some (not all) of their quotes shows clearly a connection to exessive use of alchol (the abusers are not necessarily alcoholics and this does not always lead to DT though). If you look at what I found in the dictionaries and wrote in the article you'll see a licqour connection very clearly. But not close enough to say that the origin of the word stems from delirium tremens. It does seem probable that the word jitters has been applied to DT as well as a lot of other jittery conditions. If you look at the second quote from OED it shows a connection to the heebie jeebies and I added a note showing that one of several meanings of the heebie jeebies is DT. I do doubt however that the "common crowd" at the time did have very good knowledge of the medical condition DT or that they distinguished between DT and a serious hangover or beeing stupendously drunk.


 * Linguistically it does not seem possible that the word DT can be the origin of the word jitters, but the word jitters being a Spoonerism («bin and jitters» stemming from gin and bitters) tallies well with the jittersauce in the song.


 * So far it seems clear that Cab Calloway's song is the first recorded usage the word jitter bug/jitterbug and that the word jitter was fairly new when he coined the expression. I included some quotes in the article to show usage of the word. -- ツツDyveldi ☯ prattle  ✉ post 09:56, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Looks like you are serious, so...Harlem Jazz Adventures: A European Baron's Memoir, 1934-1969. Timme Rosenkrantz. Scarecrow Press, 2012 pg 129 – 131 Google this...“Keep playin,’ man! I can’t find my jitter, bug! GoogleBooks currently has a preview of that page. Steve Pastor (talk) 21:19, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Found it, will miracles never cease? If I were a pope i'd make you a saint Steve Pastor. Etymology is not joking matter, but heaps of fun. This needs to be worked into the article. I'll probably downplay the DT bit, but stay true to both the dictionaries and Timme Rosenkrantz (I'll try to at least). Do you want to beat me to it? I have discovered that we lack an article about jitterbug in Norwegian and am thinking of making a translation, but first I'm having a good look at the English one. -- ツツDyveldi ☯ prattle  ✉ post  22:31, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

I gave you that tip because I am currently spending most of my time on KZ Dachau and a wide ranging book based around West Coast Swing. And, I have to add that I visited Oslo and Trondheim back in the 80s, and one thing I remember how to say, but not write, is, "I don't speak Norwegian very well." I love researching this stuff. Steve Pastor (talk) 20:02, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

No Such Dance
In Herräng, during one of his talks at the Föreningen Folkets Hus, Frankie Manning mentioned that there was no such dance as the Jitterbug. I do not have a source for the citation, aside from being present when he said it. His words, however, are supported by Al Minns, who was asked about the definition in the following video (2:50):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6DlmqOWBlg

Interviewer: "Tell me, what what's the jitterbug?"

Al Minns: "... we called people who just jump on the floor without any knowledge of what they were doing and go mad with the drums and what not ... and shakin' their heads and ... jumpin' up and down without any control ... are what we call jitterbugs."

Another source: http://www.swingdynamite.com/jitterbug

Historically, Lindy Hop was renamed as the Jitterbug Jive (or "Jitterbug"). It would later share this same name with a later related dance, but the reason why the Lindy Hop was renamed is related to its namesake: Charles Lindbergh. Lindburgh had a supposedly outspoken pro-nazi stance, which caused his name to be an unsavory object. In time, the term "Lindy Hop" would almost be forgotten about.

Source: http://history.just-the-swing.com/swing-history/lindy-hop

Thangalin (talk) 07:23, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

"The Lindy Hop, he explained, was basically the same dance as the Jitterbug..." Pepsi Bethel – Master of jazz Dance Steve Pastor (talk) 23:35, 2 April 2015 (UTC) "“Lindy Hop,” and the dance that the Danes back home called “Jitterbug” have found their way to the four corners of the earth..." Timme Rosenkrantz - a Dance Steve Pastor (talk) 23:37, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

"Whitey's Jitterbugs performed on Broadway in Swingin in the Rain." "Whitey's Jitterbugs are on display for a whole week at the Apollo Theater" Steve Pastor (talk) 23:56, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

social dance did not gain a permanent foothold in British ballrooms. Rather, Jitterbug, a technically distinct dance, gained a lasting presence in the United Kingdom.'
 * 'The words “Jitterbug” and “Lindy Hop” are commonly used interchangeably to refer to the same dance. However, among historians, there is no consensus on the exact definitions of the terms. In the United Kingdom, the term “Jitterbug” was used almost exclusively when referring to American swing dance. This language is significant because it suggests that authentic Lindy Hop — that is, Lindy Hop as an African American social dance — was not effectively introduced to the UK. Rather, it appears that the Jitterbug in the UK was heavily influenced by European ballroom dances and was primarily danced by Caucasians. The main source of this argument comes from original Lindy Hop dancers, Al Minns, Frankie Manning, and Norma Miller, who all equated Jitterbug dancing to a more European, Caucasian form of Lindy Hop. Further, some reporters described Jitterbug and Caucasian swing dancing as wilder and more uninhibited than authentic Lindy Hop — descriptions which match up with the descriptions of swing dancing in the United Kingdom. In addition, the sources of information about American Jitterbug, such as movies and music, often featured Caucasian rather than African American performers, thus portraying a modified version of Lindy Hop. Finally, there is at least one record of a journalist distinguishing “impermissible” American Lindy Hop to the more acceptable British Jitterbug. Although this is a controversial point, there is evidence that Lindy Hop as an African American

Source: http://diginole.lib.fsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1030&context=undergradresearch


 * '"Lindy" is synonymous with "Jitterbug" and "Swing" when referring to the Lindy, but Jitterbug and Swing may refer to different dances as well. While Swing and Jitterbug are generic terms, the Lindy is a specific dance.'
 * 'According to Frank.Werber, the late Al Minns, former member of Whitey's Lindy Hoppers, a group which toured the world in the 40's, dancing on stages and in films, said Jitterbug was a derogatory term used to describe white dancers who weren't very good.'
 * The word "Jitterbug" came from a radio announcer covering the 1936 or 1937 Harvest Moonball. It was on Movietone news and he said, referring to the Lindy dancers, "They all look like Jitterbugs." And so it caught on after that.' ~Frankie Manning

Source: The Lindy by Margaret Batiuchok http://www.scribd.com/doc/36181005/The-Lindy-by-Margaret-Batiuchok-NYU-Masters-Thesis-16-May-1988-History-of-Swing-Dancing#scribd

Thangalin (talk) 06:19, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Since this page is supposed to be about how to improve the article and not for general discussion, I'm going to suggest that you go to either Yehoodi or the swing section of Dance Forums to continue this discussion. If you let me know, we can continue to compare notes. Steve Pastor (talk) 15:59, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

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Before the war...
"Dancing was not a popular pastime in Britain before the war, and many ballrooms had been closed for lack of business". Are you kidding? Who here can say such a thing without supporting sources? Well, I have a source, and it says no such thing: Cascani, Elizabeth 1994. Oh, how we danced!. Mercat Press. ISBN 1-873-29-9. Macdonald-ross (talk) 15:03, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Etymology
According to Gerhard Kubik, 2009, Africa and the Blues, this page "jitterbug" is an alternative name for diddley bow. Could perhaps be mentioned? Episcophagus (talk) 09:59, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

history
History is nothing without dates. What happened before 1944? 100.15.117.34 (talk) 17:09, 7 August 2023 (UTC)