Talk:Jiu Ge

Text and translation issues
There are some major issues with the "Jiu Ge" text and translation as presented in this article: removing some of the material from the article page and placing it on the talk page as an archive is one solution that suggests itself in this case. Dcattell (talk) 06:22, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Per the above, I am moving the entire "Text" section here. Although it seems that there are some selected lines and text here that are not unreasonable, the overall effect seems that this section as it stands is confusing and even likely to be misleading in terms of an encyclopedic approach to the section of the Chu Ci which this article should generally represent. I am moving it here, rather than simply deleting it since it does have some inherent interest. Dcattell (talk) 06:37, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Material actually, at least for now, retained in article, though with explanatory notes. Dcattell (talk) 17:54, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Text
国殇 操吴戈兮披犀甲，车错毂兮短兵接. 旌蔽日兮敌若云，矢交坠兮土争先.

凌余阵兮躐余行，左骖殪兮右刃伤.

霾两轮兮絷四马，援玉枹兮击鸣鼓. 天时懟兮威灵怒，严杀尽兮弃原野. 出不入兮往不反，平原忽兮路超远. 带长剑兮挟秦弓，首身离兮心不惩.

诚以勇兮又以武，终刚强兮不可凌. 身既死兮神以灵，魂魄毅兮为鬼雄.

Translation in English
Who translated this? 1. King of the sky (Dong Huang Tai Yi)

1               Strike the Dark Strings 2                        Strike Strike 3                      the dark strings 4               And reed & zither answer 5                        Spirit moves 6                      in splendid gear 7         And is the body's splendid shaman 8            through which a god may sing 9                  And indeed does sing 10               And strikes and strikes 11                   that Darkest Bell 12                   ah darkest bell--- 13                    my body struck 14                        with love

2. Lord of Cloud (Mr. in the cloud) (Yun Zhong Jun)

15          Flower-spirit, shaman-child 16         in blaze of brightness dancing 17                Endless as the earth 18                She dances round it 19                           As sun 20                 As mantic moon 21            in dragon-chariot of sun 22                   O endless flight! 23         Part of me climbs to heaven 24       through the four seas & seasons 25                  Longing for you

3. Lord of Sun (Mr. East) (Dong Jun)

70                                     Lord Sun 71                                 wheels in flight 72                           trailing his spirit-garment 73           High over the Nine Hills 74                                             he handles Yin & Yang 75                       male & female 76                                           shade & sunshine 77                     soul & body 78                                      a Yin for every Yang 79                            And gallops into Light 80       I pluck the lovely hemp flower 81                              Age creeps on apace 82                                    Soon all will be over 83                                                     Soon all done all one 84       And fate is fixed in the heart 85       And not to draw nearer 86                                is to drift forever 87                                                   further apart

4. Lord of Xiang-river (Mr. Xiang) (Xiang Jun)

50       I build a bride-room 51                                   underwater 52             roof thatched with lotus 53                        courtyard paved with murex 54       At dark dusk I cross 55                                      to the Western bank 56              Here it was 57                               she cast down 58                                                     her thin dress 59                                                     upon the shore 60            Over the white nut grass 61                                      my eyes wander 62                    see only water swirl 63                                         in the flood rains 64       Someone says my loved one sent for me 65        I gallop my horses 66                                  over the lotus leaves 67           toward where a dragon waits 68                                toward where an elk browses 69       On the Mountain of Nine Doubts

5. Mrs. Xiang (Xiang Fu Ren)

26       She-shaman princess 27                                     in a stone boat 28                  in winged dragon-boat 29                                           awning of fig-vine 30                     sweet flag paddles 31                                   magnolia rudder 32             Rides to that Island 33                               to that Bright Island 34                                              abode of light 35                   Swinging her mesmere lamp 36                                      her incense burner 37                                                 on a gold chain 38                         She drops her thumb-ring in the Sea 39                    And turning 40                              and turning 41                                   stretches her body burning 42                                                               toward me 43                           (though she told me told me 44                                           she was not 45                                                             free) 46       And flying dragons sweep her far away 47                                                              from me 48        I gallop my horse in the morning 49                                    through the lowlands by the river

6. Master of Fate

102     A glow in the sky 103                              and soon you'll arise 104     Night pales 105                     Day shines forth 106     You ride on thunder wheels 107                                 cloud banners trailing 108           heave great sighs 109                                   look back yearning 110                              for earth's beauty burning 111             look and linger 112                                  forget your way 113     I draw a long arrow 114                                  and shoot Heaven's Wolf 115        then draw me down the Dipper 116                                          And plunge alone into 117                                                          the White Void

7. Young Master of Fate (Shao Si Ming)

88                  Hall full of lovely ones 89              Yet you had eyes for me alone 90       Riding a whirlwind A cloud for a banner 91                      Suddenly you came 92                 And as suddenly departed 93                 And only had eyes for me 94                        I bathed with you 95                    in the Pool of Heaven 96                 In a sunny fold of the hill 97                       I dried your hair 98        Now it is I who shout & sing with despair 99                     Under a chariot-awning 100          of peacock feathers & halcyon flags 101        You climb again to the Nine Heavens

8. Spirit of mountains (Shan Gui)

135     Mountain Spirit left me alone 136                                 dark in a bamboo grove 137          Air dark with rain 138                                    Monkeys twitter again 139               cry all night again 140                                 And cry and cry 141                                             all night again 142     Waiting for you 143                           I wander and linger 144             turn and turn 145                               and turn again--- 146     And won't turn back 147                                  and won't turn back---

9. Count of Rivers (He Bo)

148            Without my beloved 118     With you wandered 119                                 down rivers and coasts 120            River God 121                           in fish-scale boat 122               drawn by dragons 123                                          with griffin oarsmen 124     With you I wander 125                                  on the river islands 126          go with you as far 127                                      as the Southern Shore 128     Dark dusk falling 129     And I too sad 130                         to think of returning 131           Eyes only for 132                              that farthest shore 133               I lie awake 134                              yearning

10. Spirits of warriors 

11. End of ritual

Translation missing


 * above material removed from article (pending clarification/wikification. Dcattell (talk) 06:37, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The reason why I did this is because I am not sure how much time is worth spending on dealing with this unsourced/unreferenced "translation", as much as I personally find it intriguing. It sounds more like a reconstructed version of a shamanic ritual, based on the "Nine Songs"; however, if so, this should be pointed out. (I tried a brief Google search on the text -- at least there does not appear to be any obvious copyright problem.) Simply restoring the material and in a context which claims to be a "translation" is simply to perpetuate factual inaccuracies, the most obvious being the verse orders. The quoted Chinese "text" is not the text of the "Nine Songs", as it might appear by being in a section called text. It appears to be a Simplified Chinese version of "國殤" (Guo Shang), but I haven't taken the time to verify its accuracy, nor does it have an obvious relevance to the translated text section (which may upon examination be accurate enough as far as it goes -- but this would be original research). Dcattell (talk) 21:32, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Page history
A brief examination of the page history of Jiu Ge yields the following:
 * It appears that the "translation" was provided on 6 November 2007, by anonymous IP user 128.214.205.63 (last active 4 May 2010, at least in terms of the IP address). (Also see: User talk:128.214.205.63), in regards to editing record. It seems that in regard to the translated material, as added at this point, that the lines were in numbered in a correct numeric sequence throughout the translation; however, the section numbers were changed from the original, thus the lines being presented in in an incorrect order -- although the correct order seems to be indicated by the line numbering.
 * Before this, on 4 March 2006 Chinese text of "Guo Shang" was added as one of Leocola's four contributions to Wikipedia. At this point "Guo Shang" was referenced directly before this, in a comment about love poetry which was later removed. The removal of the mention of "Guo Shang" changed the context of the following "#Text", making it even less obvious why that Chinese text was there. Dcattell (talk) 06:49, 28 January 2012 (UTC)Revising comment Dcattell (talk) 07:20, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
 * 4 April 2015. The previously unidentified very free adaptation of the Nine Songs appears to have been written by Michael Saso www.michaelsaso.org/, where it also appears. It is very nicely done as a work of poetry, but it does not belong in the Wikipedia entry, so I removed it.140.233.148.221 (talk) 19:20, 4 April 2015 (UTC)Shaweng