Talk:Joan Holmes

Discussion of Relevant Content

 * The author of this page has duplicated material that rightfully belongs on The Hunger Project] page, not here. Also, I have corrected innaccuracies and rewritten the biography to be suitable to an encyclopedia entry.Jcoonrod 20:18, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Financial data regarding salary, and (administrative + fundraising) expenses as a percentage of total expenses are relevant. These are common statistics utilized to compare one nonprofit organization against another.  Historical comments/quotes are relevant, factual, and NPOV. Smeelgova 01:31, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Steve Hassan is far from NPOV, is quoted out of context, and quotes Joan Holmes out of context. Her point was that the strategies to end hunger are similar to those needed to solve other global problems - a point that the UN and other agencies would agree with. Hassan's spin on it is his spin, not fact or information. I agree that financial information is relevant, but have corrected your references.Jcoonrod 10:40, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Removed quote and analysis from Steven Pressman. Financial data is accurate and relevant, sources/references are correct.  According to Charity Navigator, 23.5% of total expenses in 2004 went to Administrative and Fundraising.  According to the Combined Federal Campaign : "Under OPM regulations, if an organi-zation’s administrative and fundraising expenses exceed 25 percent of total support and revenue, it must certify that the expenses are reasonable under the circumstances and include a formal plan to reduce such expenses below 25 percent."  The Hunger Project skirts dangerously close to this level at 23.5%. Smeelgova 02:47, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Apparently you are not familiar with nonprofit standards. Our overhead rates get us high ratings from respected watchdog groups. Also, CEO salary is not completely an administrative expense - auditors require that salaries be posted accross expense categories according to time spent. You include a charity navigator link that doesn't support the point you are trying to make. Jcoonrod 11:46, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Also, THP did not have it's origins in est (whatever a statement like that means), although it is true that the est founder, Werner Erhard, was one of the founders. Rick Ross's piece and the "see also" links have no relevance to Joan Holmes. Jcoonrod 11:52, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
 * For some reason, Smeelgova reverted to corrections without explanation on this page, with assertions which I dispute.
 * Financial information is accurate, relevant and cited. I did not "revert", but made syntax changes and corrections, and maintained accurate, correct and active citations. Smeelgova 15:03, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The link you make to CharityNavigator does not lead to a page that talks about executive compensation numbers. The numbers I see on many, many charities shows CEO compensation similar to Joan's and with higher numbers as the percentage of budget. If you are going to quote this 1.97% number, which I strongly dispute, you should provide a link to that number, not just to the home page of Charity Navigator.Jcoonrod 10:55, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I've removed inaccurate information about the founding of THP, which is relevant information to THP page but not to this page.Jcoonrod 10:58, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * All relevant financial information can be seen from the Charity Navigator webpage, or calculated from existing data on the page. The founding of THP is certainly relevant information to the Joan Holmes article, for she was the integral initial founding manager, and has strong existing ties to Werner Erhard and Erhard Seminars Training.Smeelgova 16:52, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Re CharityNavigator: That's just demonstrably not true. There is nothing on that home page about percentages. If there is a URL that speaks about percentages, then please list it.Jcoonrod 17:13, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Re Werner Erhard and EST: That's also just demonstrably not true. There has been zero participation and communication with Mr. Erhard since he left the Board, and thered can be no evidence to the contrary. EST ceased to exist many years before that.Jcoonrod 17:13, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The information set forth in the article is factual and historically accurate. To say otherwise is simply to ignore historical events and facts.Smeelgova 18:20, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Dispute on Steven Pressman
The Wikipedia guideline on Reliable Sources calls for special care on unverified material that can be construed as negative on the biographies of living persons.Jcoonrod 16:59, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
 * There is no reason to consider Steven Hassan to be in any way an authoritative source of information about Joan Holmes or THP.Jcoonrod 18:42, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Steven Pressman's work is certainly comprehensive and reliable, as well as authoritative. The text contains multiple references to Joan Holmes, as well as to the direct formation and origins of The Hunger Project.  At any rate, the source is valid, and the source is cited correctly.  The information is certainly relevant to the article.  The reader can verify information by reviewing the source directly if they so desire.Smeelgova 03:34, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I doubt he would agree - his book is clearly a strong critique of Werner Erhard and there is a dispute, not a consensus, on the relationship of complaints about Werner Erhard to an article on Joan Holmes. There is a Hunger Project article which accurately informs people about Werner Erhard's early association with The Hunger Project.Jcoonrod 12:49, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The association belongs on both articles. Joan Holmes was an integral manager within Werner Erhard's Erhard Seminars Training group, and this was the primary reason Werner Erhard hired her to head The Hunger Project.Smeelgova 14:55, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
 * For the record, at the time of the founding of THP, Joan Holmes was not a manager or even on the staff of est, and was hired not by Werner Erhard but by Hunger Project co-founder Robert Fuller to begin the work of establishing THP. I don't believe that Steven Pressman was around THP at that time and I was.
 * I was also around THP as it started. At the fifth anniversary, Werner Erhard stated that the thing he most wanted to be known for was having selected Joan Holmes as the president of THP Skipper2 (talk) 01:52, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The work by Steven Pressman is duly published, legally, but a reputable publishing company. The work is quite extensive, and the material is referenced appropriately.Smeelgova 22:16, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The work by Steven Pressman is defamatory, and the quote is defamatory on its face.Jcoonrod 10:24, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Incorrect. This is clearly simply the POV of the previous commentator.  The work is duly published and established as a reputable source.  The quote is not defamatory but simply stating historical fact.  The book by Steven Pressman is already established on wikipedia and has been cited multiple times on numerous other wikipedia articles, to general wikipedia editor acceptance.  This particular article should prove to be no different.Smeelgova 17:58, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Established by who, and authoritative on what subjects, other than through your own insertions? Through what academic process of peer review? On the contrary, the book was the subject of numerous lawsuits. You are ignoring the WP guideline when it comes to biographies of living people.Jcoonrod 22:48, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The comment above by the prior commentator seems to be very confrontational, and addresses the user directly in a most negative manner. This does not foster a communal environment of intellectual discussion. As stated above, the publishing company is reputable, as is the author's current and prior work in periodical format.  The information is stated in a purely factual and historical manner.  As stated above, Steven Pressman's work is widely cited and accepted on other Wikipedia articles.Smeelgova 23:22, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Honest disagreement is not confrontation - it is what the discussion page is for. I have made no negative comments about you whatsoever - just statements of fact from the public record. First, thank you for at least removing the most personally insulting of Mr Pressman's quotes that you had chosen - as I'm sure you know, his mode of discourse can be highly offensive. Second, you've still made no representations (other than using bold font style) to support the notion that Mr. Pressman is recognized as expert in anything other than in expressing his opinions. Anyone can publish a book - that demonstrates no authority at all.02:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Steven Pressman has worked as a newspaper and magazine journalist in Los Angeles, Washington, D.C., and San Francisco, and has been an active journalist since graduating from college in 1977. Pressman has worked as an editor at the California Lawyer Magazine, and as an editor for the San Francisco Daily Journal, and has written for the Columbia Journalism Review. His work, Outrageous Betrayal was published by St. Martin's Press, one of the United States largest publishers, publishing over 700 titles per year.Smeelgova 02:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I regret to say that none of the points above carries any validation of Mr. Pressman's authority in this matter. He never met or spoke with Ms. Holmes, he never made any attempt to contact her or any representative of The Hunger Project in the preparation of his book, in short (as far as I can tell) he violated every tenent of good journalism.Jcoonrod 02:36, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Again, the particular opinion/POV of the prior commentator.  In fact, Pressman used many reputable sources for his work, and was backed by a reputable publishing company, St. Martin's Press.  These sources were utilized in his assessment of the facts regarding the origins of The Hunger Project and Joan Holmes initial and continual role in it, & her past relationship to Werner Erhard's organization Erhard Seminars Training.  These connections are relevant, factual and valid, and stated in an NPOV, sourced manner.Smeelgova 04:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * If Pressman utilized direct sources that would meet the Wiki standards, then you should reference those sources, not Pressman.Jcoonrod 10:13, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * This is simply not a common practice on Wikipedia. As stated above, the book is reputable, the publisher is reputable, and the book is cited in numerous other locations by numerous other editors.  It is not a common practice to cite primary direct sources used by authors, but it is most certainly a common practice to cite the authors' works directly, whether in book, internet, or journal article format.Smeelgova 17:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Dispute on Salary Information

 * The comparison of CEO salary to administrative costs violates the WP NOR policy as it exists nowhere authoritatively, and does not actually make any sense, as CEO salaries are spread across all budget categories according to time spent by CEOJcoonrod 18:47, 10 June 2006 (UTC)