Talk:Job for a Cowboy/Archive 1

No section headings
It's absurd that this band has been placed on a userspace instead of a main article. --Fr4gm0nk3y 21:01, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It was because the article was deleted one year ago, and they did not want to relist it, unless a user article containing enough "facts" was created. Apparently, it was the case, it was just created in the main space (see here. Hervegirod 14:27, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Interesting to note that We Came With Broken Teeth have a song named "Job for a Brokeback"

Interesting fact. . .my brother knows the singer of psyopus (another metal blade band) and according to him the only reason metal blade signed job for a cowboy is because they knew that they would make a lot of money from the record sales...and everyone at metal blade actually hates them. fun, no?

Hmmm...Progressive Elements? I haven't heard them to progressive and I hear no progressive elements in their music (I own the CD). Do you refer to their lack of traditional song structure (ex. Verse, Chorus, ECT)? SuperRadX 18:56, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Everyone on Wikipedia seems to want to label every band progressive, I don't get it. I'm not especially learned about music, but I really don't hear it in their music. Can anyone make the poin that they are? Col.clawhammer 22:36, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I know what you mean but it is hard to define the progressive genre, I understand what a progressive band is and what it sounds like but a lot of bands branch out and say they are progressive for the smallest reasons so its hard to determine nowadays --AtTheGatesOfBodom 20:33, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree, there's nothing progressive about this band, they're just doing the same thing as every other trendy band, trying to be both br00tal and trying to appeal to your everyday scenekid.

Is it just me or does their new stuff sound like Cannibal Corpse?
 * More like Decapitated, and other tech/brutal death. Their hardcore influence is almost gone completely, focusing more on death grunts and technical and (sometimes) melodic guitar rifts.  They're now a completely different band, IMO, and they're new stuff lacks the breakdowns that made their style unique.  It's a step in the right direction for the band.

It also seems that their lyrics deal with satanism, politics, the Antichrist, and demons >.> Gas.mask.man 01:49, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Their lyrics don't necessarily deal with satanism, politics, or demons, but rather with the rise of the antichrist as prophesied in the book of revalations in the Bible. Every song on their new album Genesis is about this apocalyptic era. Metaridley540 12:53, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Whoever the hell is putting "progressive death metal" in their genre thing is gonna be smacked in the face. There is nothing progressive about this band, theyre a re-hash of everything death metal has been in the last 15 years.

I saw them support Megadeth here in Manchester, UK, yesterday and they got a pretty frosty reception (and weren't very good in my opinion either). Apparently they got booed off stage somewhere else in the country. (86.155.219.196 (talk) 13:05, 24 February 2008 (UTC))

Yes they were rubbish with Megadeth down in Brixton too. The crowd was almost totally silent. Possibly the worst band i've ever had the misfortune to see live. MetalDevastation (talk) 17:18, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Genesis
Doesn't their latest release seem to have somewhat of a deathgrind sound? I don't think there are enough solos for it to be labeled as brutal death metal.--Zepboyo 04:26, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I guess I know what you are saying but they are more mainstream so I think because a lot of more uneducated metal heads know them, they are labeled just death metal or brutal death metal. But I do agree with you. --AtTheGatesOfBodom 20:33, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I hear little bits and pieces of a lot of styles in their work, especially from album to album; I think the current description (deathcore/ death metal) does a good job describing their overall sound, though it's really hard to pin down an encompassing style for bands like these without labeling a dozen genres. --Col.clawhammer 09:32, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

right, well, ask some guys who listen entirely to metal if their brutal death metal, or technical or even death metal, and they will reply with an angry slurr of drunken words that, translated roughly into english means "job for a cowboy is fucking shit, and not at all death metal" their style is clearly hardcore, but with death metal inspired vocals --Anonymous 04:20, 23 Dec 2007 (UTC)

Genre research
I see death metal is being deleted from the article. Most of the sites I found consider them death metal/deathcore/grindcore.

Job For A Cowboy (USA)

2005 Doom (EP) Review > 4/10 - Sean M. - (Deathcore)

Death Metal

Metal

Metalcore

Deathcore

http://www.rockdetector.com/artist,62947.sm

"death metal band Job For a Cowboy have become instant stars"

http://www.popmatters.com/pm/music/reviews/47434/job-for-a-cowboy-genesis/

"Job For A Cowboy's sound has evolved from deathcore to straight ahead death metal."

http://heavymetal.about.com/od/cdreviews/fr/jfacowboygenesi.htm

Death metal; Hardcore

http://www.tartareandesire.com/bands/Job_For_A_Cowboy/6020/

Deathcore, Death Metal

http://www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=42638

Grindcore

Death Metal/ Black Metal

http://allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&samples=1&sql=11:apfuxqtdldhe~T0

brutal death metal  death metal   deathcore   grindcore   hardcore   metal   metalcore   seen live

http://www.last.fm/music/Job%20for%20a%20cowboy

Metal / Death Metal / Progressive

http://www.myspace.com/jobforacowboy

It's clear; death metal can stay Emmaneul (Talk) 18:26, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

No, it's not death metal. Do any of these people even listen to death metal? XXMurderSoulXx (talk) 00:34, 25 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with XXMurderSoulXx. Plus, most of those are unreliable sources. You can't just Google "Job for a Cowboy" and use that. -- FatalError (t|c) 18:00, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi maybe the band itself is a good resource? On all albums they list their website as "jfacmetal.com" the keyword in that is METAL therefore we can come to the conclusion that they are more than likely DEATHMETAL or at least just METAL their website is not called jfaccore.com. for some reason people say thier Ep was deathcore then they changed to deathmetal but even on their Ep it says their website is "jfacmetal.com". So its safe to say they were always deathmetal or just metal. And just for the record I listen to deathmetal and not all deathmetal bands sound exatly the same. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.92.6.54 (talk) 11:14, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The domain name of the band has nothing to do with the genre, it doesn't define it, it is simply a DNS name and is chosen to make sense to the most of the people who don't really know the difference between deathcore and death metal, and thus "metal" as a more popular word will likely make more sense to them. That's all, as simple as that. I am an avid listener of death metal, and I can tell that their sound draws near to deathcore than to death metal. Compare them with bands like Morbid Angel, Obituary, Deicide, Immolation or Vader, and notice the difference between them and REAL death metal yourself. 176.195.227.219 (talk) 21:47, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

I totally agree with this.  Draven (º,;;,º) Corvis  (chat)

Touring section should be merged
I think the touring section should just be merged into Genesis as it's not a general touring section and just has content about their more recent tours. What do you say? − ₪ÇɨгcaғucɨҲ₪  kaiden  21:53, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * This subsection is already in Genesis. Canniba  loki  22:02, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Why a subsection then? − ₪ÇɨгcaғucɨҲ₪  kaiden  22:07, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Subsection? I do not know what you are talking about. Canniba  loki  22:27, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Subsection or subheader whatever you want to call it but anyway it's fine now. − ₪ÇɨгcaғucɨҲ₪  kaiden  22:31, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * What this written up, was to be a joke, but okay if you do not understand. =P Canniba  loki  22:35, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I didn't know you were being sarcastic, so sorry about that. − ₪ÇɨгcaғucɨҲ₪  kaiden  00:12, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

new album
check their myspace...

they're writing music for a 2009 release —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.210.67.136 (talk) 16:08, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

album wasnt recorded in december, that was a demo track that leaked. was recorded during the month of april. also frederik didnt end up mixing it, so Jason Suecof did. when i try to edit this stuff, people keep changing it back. Also, Al is in videos with them playing in mexico as early as Oct 11th which means ravi quit earlier then december. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.105.129.78 (talk) 04:43, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Guitarist leaving
Is this official enough for a ref? This: http://lambgoat.com/news/view.aspx?id=11902 Veganzombieinc (talk) 16:54, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * To me a paragraph long article seems just a little bit sketchy to be used as an official refference, plus, the band's own website still lists him as part of the band. I'm leaning towards keeping him listed as a member of the band until we find some more (or far more reputalbe) refferences. If any one else can find any other sources on this, let us know.Mogthetormentor (talk) 08:44, 31 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Nevermind, found another source.Mogthetormentor (talk) 08:51, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Genre
Or, you know, you could always label them as what THEY, THEMSELVES put on their myspace perhaps? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.250.32.99 (talk) 04:12, 30 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Even better, how about the deffinition of death metal itself. Fast tempos, heavily distorted guitars, deep growling vocals, morbid lyrics, blast beat drumming, and complex song structures with multiple tempo changes. All of which JFAC undoubtedly have.Mogthetormentor (talk) 08:55, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

On their MySpace and PureVoulme account,they say Progressive Death Metal, should we put it in on their official wiki channel. I am not lying look at their MySpace and Pure Volume accounts now.panicpack121 {talk} 2:30, 18 March 2009 (UTC)


 * What makes MySpace and PureVolume reliable sources? C anniba  loki  19:35, 18 March 2009 (UTC)


 * They're not, obviously. I suggest editor above Cannibaloki reads WP:RS. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 20:35, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

That is what their genre is on bothy of their accounts, so they should be in my opinion, in your opinion it shouldn't. It should, they are really, if you look if you at it. panicpack121 (talk)
 * The band has no say on what genre they are because they are a self-published source. The sites you mention aren't reliable, please see WP:RS. FireCrystal (talk) 20:05, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

New image
Should we start trying to find a new picture for this page? The current one has the old guitarist in it, I think we need a more up to date one if possible. Input welcome.Mogthetormentor (talk) 08:58, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * If you (or anyone else) can upload or find one that corresponds to the fair use rules of article images, then go for it. • GunMetal Angel  21:10, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Genre Error
Job For A Cowboy is not Death Metal, they are deathcore. Please fix this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.138.76.251 (talk) 21:32, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

what r u talking about there death metal they were deathcore on there ep and there death metal on there debut album (Seth4000 (talk) 12:46, 24 March 2009 (UTC)) Seth4000

Nope, still deathcore. XXMurderSoulXx (talk) 10:43, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry but it's not about what we may think of the genre for this band, but what about reliable sources say about their genre. Death Core for Genesis is sourced, see for example talk here in this same page. Hervegirod (talk) 21:17, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Citation error: Citation is false
"In March 2007, Job for a Cowboy completed their full-length debut album, Genesis.[8] The album was recorded at Blue Light Audio Media in Phoenix, Arizona with producer Cory Spotts, and mixing of Sabbat guitarist Andy Sneap; released on May 15, the album peaked at #54 on the Billboard 200, and sold nearly 13,000 copies in its first week, the highest-charting metal debut since 1999's self-titled album by Slipknot. "

The bold text is completely wrong. Slipknot's deput album debuted at number 51 on the billboard 200 http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/retrieve_chart_history.do?model.chartFormatGroupName=Albums&model.vnuArtistId=33923&model.vnuAlbumId=1155524. Disturbed's debut album, however, debuted at number 29 on the top 200, which, unless my math is wrong, is a higher chart position than 51, so that section of the reference has to be changed. Next time, before adding citations, please make sure that they are actually factual. Thanks! For slipknot: http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/retrieve_chart_history.do?model.chartFormatGroupName=Albums&model.vnuArtistId=33923&model.vnuAlbumId=1155524 For disturbed: http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/retrieve_chart_history.do?model.chartFormatGroupName=Albums&model.vnuArtistId=382997&model.vnuAlbumId=1138597Zaruyache (talk)

First demo
Should we at least mention the demo they released years ago? Maybe give it an article? I see that even its mention is constantly being deleted and re-added onto here. Any reasons why?Mogthetormentor (talk) 14:48, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Most demos are deemed unotable per WP:MUSIC, as far as I've noticed too that the page has been continously deleted, I think the reason why demo releases are considered unotable is mainly because the reader is mainly concerned with what's now, only hardcore fans would really care what's behind all their music before the group was signed to a record label. • GunMetal Angel  20:44, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

death metal / deathcore
This band changed its sound from deathcore to death metal for their last album Genesis. This article took this into account some time ago, and sourced it (see this reference for example, which write: Job For A Cowboy's sound has evolved from deathcore to straight ahead death metal. Some editors keep changing the header from death metal to deathcore, without sourcing it. Please stop doing this, without sources, it is WP:POV. Hervegirod (talk) 10:41, 4 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Deathcore was added as a secondary genre to the listing for their latest album, Ruination per it being sourced. I guess the best way to say this is Doom may be purely deathcore, while Genesis is purely death metal, but once it gets to Ruination, the band kind of combine those two sounds. • GunMetal Angel  20:46, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Technical Death Metal?
After hearing a bootlegged copy of Ruination i would say the band has elvoled again to Technical Death Metal sounding to me like The Faceless —Preceding unsigned comment added by XXGTAKINGXx (talk • contribs) 00:38, 30 June 2009 (UTC)


 * One: I don't think you should be telling us that you have a bootlegged copy of the album and two: Wikipedia works with reliable sources, not opinions. FireCrystal (talk) 01:12, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

People can pre-ordered it, dUR DUR! No offense, but stop acting retarded. They do sound Tech/Prog Metal in alot of people. Why doesn't beleive that? panicpack121 (talk 1:25AM, 3 July 3, 2009 (UTC)


 * Please read WP:CIVIL before posting any comments. The album's release date is the 7th. I don't think people who pre-order albums get any special treatment such as getting it before the official release date but just when the album has released. People may think so but like I've said above "Wikipedia works with reliable sources, not opinions." And what?? to the last sentence. Are you asking me for my opinion? FireCrystal (talk) 06:40, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

I'd say Ruination sounds technical? Doesn't it? Is this progressive/technical death metal album? panicpack121 (talk 3:37AM, 29 November, 2009 (UTC)


 * I came to this page thinking this "band" was a joke, but apparently, it's not. But as someone who is a "reliable source" (I'm an 'expert' on music theory and a session musician) who regularly publishes academic papers on such things, I can give an honest assessment.


 * Laymen often have misgivings about what makes music "technically proficient." You hear a lot of interesting opinions on this speaking to local musicians as well.  The general consensus is that progressive rock like Rush is top of the heap, but this is not quite true.  Technical proficiency can be broken down into two distinct categories: proficient playing, and proficient composing.


 * Now, proficient players are found most often in classical, jazz, and pop music. The guys who back singers like Madonna and Michael Jackson are generally virtuosos or very near to it.  The reason for this is that these acts need someone who can guarantee a good quality recording in a short amount of time.  For example, a guitar player like Steve Lukather or Dann Huff can record their parts in just a few takes, with minimal post production correction.  Even the best known and most respected guitar players (Clapton, Hendrix, etc.) cannot compare to the above mentioned players in technical proficiency.


 * Proficient composers, however, are a different story. Composition is all about sonority.  Anyone can compose a song that is technically highly unique (Schoenberg is a good example), but not everyone can write one that sounds sonorous as well.  Schoenberg's songs sound, quite literally, like someone banging on a piano at random.  A good example of a popular song that is technically unique is Bohemian Rhapsody, which at any point is nearly atonal enough that a key change or misplaced chord would not alert the casual listener.  These songs are rare, very rare.


 * So, to sum up, "Job for a Cowboy" is far from either of these categories. Their music, while somewhat technical in nature, is not intended to be sonorous, and therefore can be viewed in the same manner as Schoenberg.  The skill of the musicians is average at best, most of what they play is extremely simple, or formulaic.  So, I'm glad you like them, but they don't adhere to your opinion. ReignMan (talk) 12:40, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

1) You are not a reliable source 2) The question is whether there is a reliable source citing JFAC as techdeath/progdeath as there is for bands such as Cannibal Corpse.3) Everything you said is therefore superfluous and does not anwer the question Syxxpackid420 (talk) 13:41, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Cannibal Corpse are somewhat technical in natural, but not much though as to compared to Death, Voivod,Pestilence, Atheist with albums, such as: Human, Nothingface, Spheres, and Unquestionable Presence. Yes, it is true that Job For A Cowboy are technical, but they're limited to their technicality, much like Venom, but that is an another topic for an another day. I think that their first chance for technicality wasn't until their Ruination album, but as you told me - it's limited, yes we've known that already.

Madonna and Michael Jackson are not even technical in nature, except for the the fact, which they had single-handedly mass-produced their pop albums and their soft-rock albums if they have any albums like that. They made more replicated albums and artists, which you haven't seen before in a very long time. They can't even play jazz, death metal, thrash metal, progressive metal, and etc. without the use of sampling of those specific artist(s). Yes, they do that if you don't believe me. Just look at the rap game without the use of sampling, they would be lost like a motherfucker.

Their compositions are having a hint for barely if any technical playing at all, if there is one on the whole album. There is barely if any technical proficient components in the Ruination. And, the proficient components in their album -- I'd say that there only 1 or 2 songs if that; it's a very good album though. I'd know now try: "Bitches Brew" by Miles Davis, "Cantaloupe Island" by Herbie Hancock, "My Favorite Valentine" by John Coltrane, and etc. Those songs have technical and provident views on the aspect of it.

Job For A Cowboy are a good band and all, but I'd think their Gloom will be their cliche with the melodic death metal style of playing nowadays, but that's just me. You can say something different, I don't care really. panicpack121 3:18pm, 7 June 2011 (UTC)