Talk:Jock Tamson's bairns

Is this really a 'popular adage'?
Got to admit, I've never, ever heard of this one.--Nydas 09:46, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

A google search for 'Jock Tamson's Bairns' reveals the following:


 * The overwhelming majority of the hits are for a band named 'Jock Tamson's Bairns' - they seem to be quite popular, and should have a Wikipedia entry of their own.


 * There are a few sites which hint at the phrase actually being used, but they're incredibly few in number for such a 'popular adage'. They also contradict the external link, which just seems to be an Aberdeenshire hotelier describing her (non-notable) ancestry. There seems to have been a well-loved minister in Edinburgh (or Fife) called Jock Tamson, who might have given rise to the phrase.


 * There are a few books called Jock Tamson's bairns. One of them is a government publication, although at 52 pages it's more of a brochure.

I suggest that this article be considered for deletion, or be reworked to refer to the band. The phrase is not remotely popular, and comparing it to 'a man's a man for a' that' is ludicrous.--Nydas 10:59, 28 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Don't know where you're from Nydas, but it's a very well known phrase in the Dundee area at least. Alexforcefive (talk) 05:12, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think Nydas has been in or around Glasgow much, or saw much on Scottish television. This is a very well known and oft used phrase in and around the places I've lived and worked in Scotland.2.25.6.211 (talk) 15:48, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

(Another poster):

There is nothing ridiculous about the comparison to A Man's A Man, because it is only comparing the egalitarian sentiment, NOT the popularity of the two items.

I half suspect this is a wind-up, it's so over the top.

Deletion
An anonymous user has deprodded my deletion suggestion, and added another meaning to the article. I still think this article should be deleted due to a lack of evidence that it's a popular adage - and there is no source for this new meaning.--Nydas 14:02, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I oppose deletion. This is a traditional saying that I have heard many times in many Scottish contexts.--Sjharte 10:57, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

It always amazes me the number of people who recommend articles for deletion on the basis that "I've never heard of it". Certainly if an article has no references it should be highlighted in an attempt to improve the article. But sometimes I feel that somepeople just get a kick out getting articles deleted. Often a new user to Wikipedia will write an article for the first time. Obviously it will often be the case that these articles are not of the highest quality, but we should encourage the authors to improve the article not just aim to get in deleted. If this happens the user is likely to not bother creating further items. 194.200.145.5 09:08, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


 * This phrase is a popular adage, the band Jock Tamson's Bairns are named so because it is a popular phrase, known and used by many. The only bit I have a problem with is the part about alleged lack of acceptance towards people who have moved on. I am not denying that this sentiment exists amongst some people, but usually when the one doing the moving on displays an arrogance or superiority, although I accept that this is not always true and there will always be jealous people. However, I feel this is the same the world over, many Scots are quite happy to celebrate achievements and philanthropy of someone like Andrew Carnegie, for example. The argument that it does not return enough results on Google to be a popular phrase is laughable, type "Cogito ergo sum" into Google and will find many links to a heavy metal band - therefore the google test proves nothing. I worry about the increasing Googlefication of the world in the 21st century, if something doesn't turn up enough on a Google search, does this mean it's eventual deletion from society as well as Wikipedia? Benson85 22:07, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

It was used today 13/5/09 on the BBC website here in a news story about intolerance toward immigrants in Scotland http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/8046728.stm  ``  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.170.3.189 (talk) 08:14, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Usage
Hansard 10 Mar 1997 http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199697/cmhansrd/vo970310/debtext/70310-07.htm

Mrs Ewing We are all privileged and honoured to have been elected to serve in this place, but we need to see out of our own back windows into a world where fear, poverty and depression dominate the lives of citizens in our constituencies and countries, and indeed abroad. Today's headlines, to which the Secretary of State for Scotland was trying to draw attention, must not distract any of us from the vision and deeply held value that we are all Jock Tamson's bairns.



This is a very well-known phrase, appearing in the Dictionary of the Scottish Language. There are references from the mid 19th century to the present day http://www.dsl.ac.uk/



I've picked up this adage since living in Scotland so I'd say it was common and widely used. See; Scottish Parliament Presiding Officers Address to the Queen http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/business/officialReports/meetingsParliament/or-03/sor0603-02.htm Centre for Political Song http://www.caledonian.ac.uk/politicalsong/songs/clark1.html Article promoting Scottish education http://www.friendsofscotland.gov.uk/education/children.html



(This is another poster - don't know the conventions for showing that):

This expression is certainly used by at least older Scots of various regions - I hear it from time to time and even use it myself. The band in question chose this name precisely BECAUSE the expression is well-known, and it was a combination of socio-political comment and a wee bit of humour. Why should one person who doesn't know it be a reason for deletion??? Why so emphatic about it??

It also has acquired a slightly literary tongue-in-cheek touch in some circles, I've discovered in Edinburgh recently. All examples oral, so no printed sources to link to here.


 * You should comment here if you want to have more influence on the discussion. You can sign your comments by typing ~ .--Nydas 20:03, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

The question "Who was Jock Tamson?" is often answered with "A very fit man with a fast car."Ewan 15:31, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Jock: John or Jack?
The article translated Jock as John, but everything I've ever known/read/heard says that Jock is equivalent to Jack, and Ian would be Scottish (coming from Scottish Gaelic) for John. Anyone have information on this? Canaen 23:37, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Afraid I can't help with a full answer but see here in the ever-useful DSL. --HJMG 08:45, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The current links would be Jock n. and Jock. As for Ian, see Ian – it's from Gaelic, so you might want to look "John" up in Am Faclair Beag, there are 5 different equivalents of it there, including "Iain". 37.47.201.148 (talk) 22:45, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

John Thomson?
I can't help wondering about internet claims that this phrase originated with John Thomson and would love more evidence. Does anyone know of any book(s) that would help get this clear? Some reasons for scepticism: --HJMG 08:04, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The claim varies - sometimes people say it's about JT's children, sometimes his congregation. This says "perhaps" and "attributed".
 * When JT died in 1840 he got an obit of about 100 words in the Scotsman - no mention of phrase. 7 years later the Sc. Journal (?) said " 'We’re a’ John Tamson’s bairns' is an expression of mutual good fellowship very frequently heard in Scotland."
 * The DSL is aware of the JT claim but doesn't offer any support.
 * I'm aware of other sayings which have been widely but incorrectly (sometimes very plausibly) attributed to one specific individual. One example:.

I think we should be clear about the tongue-in-cheek 'wee bit of humour' ? In the United Kingdom, John Thomas is sometimes used as a euphemism for the penis. Or is that just my understanding of its origin ? It seems more likely than a real specific individual, who may have been associated as a convenient kind of censorship by/for genteel folks? It could just be a co-incidence, of course. It clearly pre-dates Google - and is the kind of popular saying that will rarely find its way into print - well done whoever found the link below & good to know it is still current!

NB the two origins are not mutually exclusive : it could have been a way of making fun of someone with an embarrassing name ?

On other sayings which are so generic that we can never be certain of finding a definitive source : Google

"black over" "bill's mother's" OR "will's mother's"

every locality has someone fitting the description, so the saying became widespread ! 195.137.93.171 13:33, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

For another example of an attempt to disguise a rude word, Google

twat "pregnant fish"

I have heard schoolboys using it as a defence when rebuked by a teacher for saying 'twat'. I guess that is the origin of the definition - a schoolboy joke !

I think 'pregnant fish' is chosen to make the credible look stupid, because fish (and ducks) generally lay eggs instead ! Hence there is no word already in existance ('gravid' is not fish-specific). (Did you know that 'gullible' isn't in any dictionary ? ;)

OTOH, if enough people believe twat = "pregnant fish", then who can say "it isn't true" - given time, I expect it to be in dictionaries eventually - language evolves ! This will always be speculative, but it fits a plausible pattern. Don't know if this is WP:OR

195.137.93.171 16:35, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Image
Could this be used in any way as an illustration? --HJMG 08:04, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I think so, if the image is public domain, or fair use, or whatever. We could maybe cut off the black top thing, and just put the image in a frame. It'd be a nice addition. Canaen  03:36, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Ripping on Fife?
There's no reference for the claim that 70/133 families in Buckhaven were the Thomson, but it is a common joke that Fife is/was rife with incest. Any idea if this is actually true? Lewisly (talk) 14:18, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

"Clann MhicThomais"?
Erm, wouldn't that be Clann MhicThàmhais (or maybe ?Clann 'IcThàmhais, I'm not sure when the elided form applies)? 37.47.201.148 (talk) 23:43, 11 February 2023 (UTC)