Talk:Jody Scheckter

Flag
why the old south african flag? --Severino 10:26, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Can we get the old South African flag replaced please? I don't think it's necessary to use the old one. --nongolos 12:25, 02 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I would have to agree here. I work directly for Jody and he is appalled that the old South African flag is used on his wiki page.
 * He does not want to be associated with the old one. Anyone know who I need to speak to on Jody's behalf to make this change permanent?
 * It is harmful to his reputation to be associated with the old flag and the political ties to it.
 * Why does there need to be a flag at all? 84.21.145.2 (talk) 10:36, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

changed. --Severino 11:00, 6 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Changed back - sorry I didn't see the discussion here first. The reason it was the old one is that the F1 wikiproject decided that the only consistent way to approach flags is to use the flag a driver actually raced under (for example that makes it absolutely clear that Mario Andretti should have the American flag, although he was born in Italy, because he became an American citizen and raced under that flag). That means that for Jody, and for all other SA drivers to date, the correct flag is the old one. It would be slightly odd, to my eyes at least, to show Jody the racing driver under a flag he never raced under. Obviously Jody's still alive, and lives 'under the new flag' now, but the article is almost entirely about his racing career (correctly) and the infobox needs to be consistent with the season racing results, which also use the old flag. 4u1e 07:47, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

hm, it seemed to me that the flag is shown to the "visualisation" of the nationality. in this respect it wouldnt have made sense to use the old one --Severino 13:30, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * But it would be inconsistent with, for example, 1979 Formula One season. Using the new flag there would be anachronistic. Whichever way we go, there will be an inconsistency. The only thing I can suggest is that you could bring the topic up in a general way at WikiProject Formula One. Using the flag a driver raced under is the currently agreed approach, for good reasons. However, if others there agree with your point, we could change the way this is done across the project. Cheers. 4u1e 22:53, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

if have no objection against using the old one after you explained it. however, it could be misunderstood by others the way i did. (scheckter is a living person and his nationality is still south african and RZA now has a different flag. but dont mind, there are bigger problems ;-) --Severino 23:03, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree that it will look odd to some, as I say, there isn't an ideal solution. If it becomes a regular issue we'll see whether we want to change this across the project. 4u1e 07:46, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

The policy on Wikipedia is actually very consistent (for a change) on issues like this. All sports figures are shown as competing under the flags they were under at the time they competed. Even athletes for Nazi Germany are shown with a swastika flag. Hence Jody Scheckter is listed under the old South African flag, but his son Tomas, currently active in the IRL, gets the new one. Jsc1973 (talk) 08:13, 22 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The comparison to Mario Andretti does not hld water because USA and Italy are different countries and we are not talking about country of birth. I do however accept that Jody raced under the old SA flag. However you note that German Athletes are often shown as with the Nazi Flag. If this is the case the the one with Max Schmeling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Schmeling) is incorrect as it shows the current German flag. Hitler used Schmeling as Nazi propaganda so the Nazi flag would be more appropriate?)

--196.30.245.149 (talk) 18:17, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The use of the flag in Schemeling's article refers to his amateur career, and the medals he won as an amateur (when he actually represented a nation, boxers usually don't). His amateur career ended in 1924, 9 years before the adoption of the Nazi flag. I don't see a single legitimate arguement on this page for not using the historically accurate flag. SSSB (talk) 10:46, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Nationality
Scheckter has been a USA resident for a very long time now (20 years or more, I believe) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Socrates2008 (talk • contribs) 13:12, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * USA resident isn't the same thing as citizen though, is it? If you are right and he does hold US nationality, it would go in the article main text towards the bottom somewhere, rather than in the F1 infobox which is intended to represent the drivers' career. The start of the lead would also be modified along the lines of the Derek Daly article. Don't suppose you could rustle up a reference from somewhere could you? If you can I'll happily add the text to the article. Incidentally, if this is true, it would make the suggestion of using the current RSA flag for Scheckter doubly inappropriate! Cheers. 4u1e 13:17, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Lived in Atlanta for ages - not sure if this is still the case though, as the third article implies potential UK citizenship too!    Socrates2008 13:37, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree - lived in Atlanta for a long time and looks to be resident in the UK now. But that doesn't make him either a UK or US national. Just ask Mohamed Al-Fayed. 4u1e 18:37, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * As an aside to this, the article for Jody's brother Ian states that South African nationals were refused entry to Japan in the 70s. Jody's participation in the 1977 Japanese Grand Prix thus implies that he holds (or held) another nationality.--MartinUK (talk) 02:16, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Interesting. Do we have a reliable reference that Ian Scheckter was refused entry into Japan owing to his South African nationality? Whilst this webpage confirms that Japan "stopped issuing entry visas to South African nationals wishing to engage in educations, cultural or sporting activities with Japan" on 13 Jun 1974 (unfortunately it doesn't say if/when this restriction was rescinded), the two references I could find relating to Ian Scheckter's non-participation in the 1977 Japanese Grand Prix (Mike Lang's Grand Prix! Vol 3 and grandprix.com) both just say that Ian Scheckter "had visa problems"; they don't specifically state that he was refused entry due to his nationality (although it's entirely possible, maybe even likely). I don't think we can draw any conclusions about Jody having dual nationality until we know the full details behind Ian's non-entry into Japan. DH85868993 (talk) 01:59, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The ban on South African nationals was in force, and Ian fell foul of it. Jody only got in because he was driving for Walter Wolf, who knew someone at the Canadian embassy who put pressure on the Japanese to let his driver into the country. Nothing to do with dual citizenship as far as I know. Bretonbanquet (talk) 02:12, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Mike Lawrence's "Story of March" says "Scheckter landed at Tokyo airport and was detained because his passport only had a tourist visa. [He] was put on a plane out of the country 24 hours later". Alan Henry's "March" just says 'visa problems'. I've added Lawrence as a ref to Ian Scheckter. 4u1e (talk) 06:58, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Remove old South Afrcian flag

 * Specific text to be added or removed: South African Flag to be removed from his Nationality section

Either to be replaced by the new flag or to have no flag at all. I have read the previous comments about it being the flag in his racing era- but it not an appropriate reflection on him and suggests racism. The flag is placed next to his Nationality- not in a section regarding his racing career.
 * Reason for the change: I work on behalf of Jody and he has requested not to be associated with the old South African flag and wants it removed from his page.

https://www.npr.org/2019/08/21/753074028/court-limits-display-of-south-africas-old-apartheid-flag-citing-hateful-legacy 84.21.145.2 (talk) 10:50, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
 * References supporting change: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-safrica-politics-flag-idUSKCN1VB1AF
 * I don't believe this is something Scheckter has control over - it was the flag he raced under in his F1 career and it is only shown as his racing nationality. The flag is placed next to his Nationality- not in a section regarding his racing career. this is incorrect. The flag is displayed in the infobox in the "Formula One World Championship career" section and the Nationality title links to FIA Super Licence. I disagree it implies any connection to racism or that it reflects poorly on him. WP:NOTCENSORED would be the relevant policy. I can't see how indicating the flag he raced under would be contrary to anything in WP:BLP, indeed, WP:OWN would suggest that this request can't override project consensus. However, I do not have a definitive answer and will consider other users' opinion before I consider declining this request. 5225C (talk • contributions) 12:45, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
 * What "Jody" has "requested" is irrelevant. The notion that the presence of this national flag in this (a historical) context implies someone is racist is ludicrous and untrue. The facts are simple - this was the flag of South Africa during the time he competed as a South African. Any attempt to remove the flag, or change constitutes WP:CENSORSHIP and will not be tolerated. Finally, even if Wikipedia was subject to the rulings you cited (which it doesn't) none of these rulings would be relevant - they target gratuitous displays, it doesn't cover displaying the flag in historically accurate contexts. SSSB (talk) 13:14, 17 October 2022 (UTC)