Talk:Joe Byrd (Cherokee Nation Principal Chief)/Archive 2

Neutrality Tag
State the specific content you feel is biased before tagging articles. Waya sahoni 07:33, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Good Faith
It seems that some here preach "good faith" and then do not practice it themselves. It is frustrating indeed. The article was wikified. Really certain ones do not want this type article included here or so it seems. --Bookofsecrets 09:33, 18 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Let the article sit for a few weeks, then if the tagger doesn't come back and edit it, remove the tag. Waya sahoni 05:22, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Article has been Merged into Joe Byrd (Cherokee Chief)
Waya sahoni 03:46, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Disputed
Unfortunately, this article contains quite a lot of uncited and inflammatory material, generally condemnatory of Joe Byrd. Even the section titles are extremely POV. There is good factual material in here, but the overall tone is more like a screed than an article. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 04:48, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi Lulu, Can you specifically point to the material you feel in not cited or is inflamatory and that lacks references. Please response to this talk page with the specific materials you are disputing? The article appears to cite numerous sources which substanciate the commentary in the article. Thanks. Waya sahoni 01:50, 7 March 2006 (UTC)


 * By way of example, the very first paragraph contains the following significant phrases:


 * "armed with shotguns and automatic weapons" "he would not surrender to any law" "directed by executive order of Byrd" " most brazen exercise of anti-democratic power in the modern history of the United States"


 * The paragraph offers the following link in the context, one would assume, of corroboration: http://www.yvwiiusdinvnohii.net/Cherokee/News/FebMarch97/MP970329marshals.htm.


 * Taking that link and searching the resulting page, one finds (or doesn't find) the following:


 * "Could not find the text "shotguns"" "Could not find the text "automatic weapons"" "Could not find the text "surrender"" "Could not find the text "executive order"" "Could not find the text "anti-democratic""


 * Exactly what relevance as verification does the link offered have to what you authored (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Byrd_%28Cherokee_Chief%29&diff=prev&oldid=38408393)?


 * It seems that the substance of that paragraph is entirely your personal point-of-view. Or where exactly did the details you write come from? Certainly they are not from the source cited. talks_to_birds 06:28, 7 March 2006 (UTC)


 * No, Actually all of this material is cited in the article. It's written in a historical book titled, "The Modern Near Death experience of the Cherokee Nation."  So your POV concerns have been addressed.  User:Bookofsecrets also has reviewed the materials and he is also Ah-ni-yv-wi-ya, so I think we have addressed it.  You are free to order a copy of the quoted publication. Waya sahoni 09:31, 11 March 2006 (UTC)


 * So the entire source for this article is a book, "The Modern Near Death experience of the Cherokee Nation" and not the links you wrote into the body of the article itself?


 * Searching at Google.com: "Your search - "The Modern Near Death experience of the Cherokee Nation" - did not match any documents".


 * Searching at Google.com: ""Wm. R. Wayland"" for the alleged author returns *only* the Joe Byrd (Cherokee Chief) here at Wikipedia.


 * And, searching at Google.com: "Your search - "William R. Wayland" cherokee - did not match any documents."


 * Can you provide the ISBN for this alleged book?
 * When was the book published, and by whom was it written?
 * If the book is a "historical book" (your words) how does it speak to events that are well less than ten years old?
 * What is the POV of the book?
 * If these are direct quotations from the book, how were *its* statements verified?


 * Finally, again, if this entire article was based upon a book that a Google search cannot find, written by an author that a Google search suggests exists only on the Chief Joe Byrd article, why did you provide links to articles that do not support the statements made in the article in any way? -- talks_to_birds 14:55, 11 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Google is not the end of the earth. I have a copy of the publication.  What's your mailing address and I'll mail it to you.  It's copyrighted so I can't image it and post it somewhere. Waya sahoni 22:55, 11 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Ha! You have a copy you want to mail me, so you want my mailing address? I'll pass! Just post the ISBN number here, right now. Quite simple, really, isn't it? Simple if the book even exists, that is.


 * As for Google being "the end of the earth" or somewhere else, if neither the title of this "book" nor the author of this "book" show up in a Google search, I'm about 99% ready to say it doesn't exist. If it *does* exist, it's in such limited circulation and of such dubious provenance that I doubt anyone formally involved with Wikipedia would accept it as WP:RS.


 * But that's all irrelevant, isn't it? Just post the ISBN right here:


 * -- talks_to_birds 23:22, 11 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Google may not be the end of the earth, but as far as books published in the US are concerned, the Library of Congress IS. I cannot find any book of that title, or any author with that name in their catalogue, so I surmise that this book was never published in the United States, which makes it fail WP:V and, if it does exist, WP:OR. The reference has been deleted from the article for that very reason. --Aim Here 00:06, 12 March 2006 (UTC)


 * K.. Fair enough. However, now we seem to be back to square one :-/


 * (I had posted a question over at Wikipedia_talk:Reliable_sources about the acceptance of books of limited circulation before I saw your post here). -- talks_to_birds 00:23, 12 March 2006 (UTC)


 * From what I've read about Joe Byrd he nearly caused a major uprising among the Cherokee peoples. He seemed to be pulling the same sorts of things G.W. Bush is pulling on the whole USA. So I see no NPOV issues with the article.  --Bookofsecrets 16:44, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Archives
Bookofsecrets: Why did you apparently delete the Archive 1 page, with no comment in the history as to what your action was doing?

I hardly call deleting an Archive a "minor edit" -- talks_to_birds 16:22, 12 March 2006 (UTC)


 * They weren't moved with the rest of the page from Chief Joe Byrd to Joe Byrd (Cherokee Chief). I gone ahead and made the page move, so everything should be in working order now. I doubt he was trying to be deceptive or anything &mdash; he just wasn't sure what to do with the dead link. &mdash; Rebelguys2 talk 20:24, 12 March 2006 (UTC)


 * K... Thanks. -- talks_to_birds 20:52, 12 March 2006 (UTC)


 * No I was not attempting to be deceptive and the link was dead and thus I thought there was no archive for the article. --Bookofsecrets 10:39, 13 March 2006 (UTC)