Talk:Joe Collier (clinical pharmacologist)

Declaration
I declare that I wrote this article in my role as Wikimedian in Residence at the History of Modern Biomedicine Research Group, for which I am paid. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:47, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
 * User:Littleolive oil, Please see Paid-contribution_disclosure which is WP policy. If you want to try to change the policy please have at it. Pigsonthewing did the correct thing in writing the disclosure above; i just formalized it for the day when that disclosure is archived. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jytdog (talk • contribs) 07:03, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Terms of use explanation is here. Creating a separate template for this purpose. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 08:59, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

DocJames. You suggest I changed your edit I didn't. I removed Jytdog's tag which implies paid editing as a COI. Wikmedian in residence states, "Concerns about Conflict of Interest are well documented, understood, explained and monitored already, so we can leave them aside in this discussion. Organisations, GLAM, non-GLAM or commercial, may employ paid Wikipedians – people who, as part or all of their job, have the task of editing Wikipedia and monitoring Wikimedia generally. The role of WiR is distinguishable from these other two types of involvement." It also states,"A Wikipedian-in-Residence (WiR) is different from both: a) a paid editor; or b) a project leader or participant, whether or not those in the latter group have an organisational sponsor/champion." Jytdog has both harassed Andy by following him to Wikimedia and incorrectly removing large swaths of content and continues ad hominem attacks. His tag here incorrectly implies potential COI because of a Wikimedian in residence status; per our own guides this is not correct. This should be removed from the tag "and Conflict of interest".(Littleolive oil (talk) 16:06, 20 January 2018 (UTC))

...and for heaven's sake you are an admin., why have you not said something about the attacks.(Littleolive oil (talk) 16:11, 20 January 2018 (UTC))
 * Hey User:Littleolive oil were did I suggest you changed my edit?
 * Also user name is "Doc James", without the space the ping does not work.
 * I agree WiR are typically different than other types of paid editors which is why I built a different template.
 * Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:50, 20 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Implied (my word above is suggest) when you addressed me after the changes and comments you made and after I had made changes to Jytdog's rather than to your edits. I apologize for the misunderstanding, probably my error.


 * The template still has a COI element which I disagree with since Wikimedians in residence are not considered paid in the same way our COI editors/paid editors are. As I said above I don't agree with your template completely but its an improvement. I don't understand how you or any admin can ignore Jytdog and his attacks. I understand COI is a big problem on Wikipedia and that Jytdog has been working in that area. I also don't think harassment and personal attacks are acceptable no matter what work the editor does. Not speaking to him enables more of the same. My opinion of course and not held by all.(Littleolive oil (talk) 21:12, 20 January 2018 (UTC))
 * I agree that WiR are generally not considered paid except when they edit about the institution they are hired by. Andy has already adjusted  Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 22:17, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

My revert
I reverted because it will be easier to go back to the stub and develop the article from there. This is a good version to use for background. It's just a question of finding sources. SarahSV (talk) 16:56, 20 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Oddly you have removed the statement about Collier "writing in the BMJ about discriminatory practice in software used for medical school admissions", despite one of the extant citations in the article being "Collier, J (6 March 1999). "Tackling institutional racism". BMJ (318(7184)): 679. PMC 1115118  10066235", which is about an incident in which, in Collier's own words in that piece, "The computer software for processing applications for student admissions was programmed to discriminate against ethnic minority candidates". Perhaps you would like to reconsider? Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:39, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
 * That was one of the article's problems. It did not say when this had happened, and it gave the impression that he had used the BMJ to blow the whistle. That was shocking, because it meant that this computer programme had existed in Britain in 1999. So I looked it up, and in fact it seems it happened in the 1980s. The BMJ article gave it a mention, so it's fine to use it as a source, but that article had nothing to do with exposing it. SarahSV (talk) 18:01, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

The original paragraph, in full, was:

"He became a whistleblower, reporting to the then Commission for Racial Equality, and writing in the BMJ about, discriminatory practice in software used for medical school admissions selection.[3][4]"

I'm surprised that you think it acceptable to remove a cited, relevant and significant fact, rather than tweak the wording to, say:

"He became a whistleblower, reporting to the then Commission for Racial Equality, and later writing in the BMJ about, discriminatory practice in software used for medical school admissions selection.[3][4]"

-- Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:15, 20 January 2018 (UTC)


 * It isn't that interesting that he wrote about it in the BMJ, and the BMJ article doesn't give much detail; he talks mostly about his feelings and the backlash. As a matter of interest, why didn't you say when it had happened and describe what it was? Or at least give the year? SarahSV (talk) 19:33, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

Whistleblower
"The investigation at St George's Hospital Medical School comes in the wake of the discovery that a computer program used to help select students downgraded non-white (and incidentally women) applicants" (BMJ, 7 February 1987).

... "and incidentally women". SarahSV (talk) 17:24, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:47, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
 * St-George s-Hospital.jpg