Talk:Joe Lieberman/Archive 1

Untitled
This archive includes threads from Talk:Joe Lieberman from 2003 until June 1st, 2006.

Talk, mostly prior to 2005
Most of the inital text from this page is from http://lieberman.senate.gov/newsite/biography.cfm?lowsrc=true

For anyone not familiar with American politics and Lieberman himself, the article as it currently reads leaves two questions unanswered:

(1) Which party does Lieberman belong to? democrat of course (Well, you could conclude this from the sentence about the changing majority, but isn't that asking too much?)

(2) When did Lieberman run for vice president?

I don't know enough about the subject, so could someone else please add these essential pieces of information? --KF 17:29 Jan 7, 2003 (UTC)

Video Game Censorship
Dammit, stop taking the word out unless you have a citation where Lieberman states that he opposes restricting the content of video games. There are many times that he has said that some content should not be available.

Joe vs. Joseph
Page move: 64,600 (Joseph Liberman) vs. 86,400 (Joe Liberman) on google. --Jiang


 * Here in good old Europe Lieberman is always referred to as "Joseph", never as "Joe" (if he is mentioned at all), so it's hard for me to understand the move. --KF 04:34, 4 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * Here in the good old US of A, he's always referred to as "Joe". It's the "Bill Clinton" argument -- use the name he's refered by.  BTW, could someone expand on the upset victory in his first election?  Why was it an upset?  Whom was he competing against? RickK 04:53, 4 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * In Texas he always seems to be "Joseph Lieberman," but I haven't watched too closely, so I'm not sure. Jdavidb 20:06, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * Here in Illinois I've always seen him called "Joseph," likewise most online coverage (at least from the gamer side, he's not our favorite person) seems to refer to him as Joseph. I say we move it to Joseph.--Lord Shitzu 15:23, August 11, 2005 (UTC)


 * In PA, when he is talked about, Joseph is used, but it seems like both are kind of common, so I'll change it to Joseph "Joe" Lieberman. How does that sound? Er... right after someone explains how you change the title of an article. I changed the infobox, though. --clevomon


 * Picking one or the other is better than using quotation marks in that way, in my opinion. For what it's worth, I've always heard him referred to as Joe. —Cleared as filed. 23:39, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, then. I fixed it. It still might be nice to come to a decision, though. --clevomon 16:57, 8 February 2006

Stance on violent games?
I noticed there wasn't much mention on his highly conservative stance on violence in computer/video-games, should this be worked into the article? 05:38, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Watergate and Weicher?
The Watergate scandal was 14 years before Lieberman was elected to teh Senate and was pretty much forgotten by then. Lieberman's election was made possible in part by the change in the GOP. It is true that Lieberman was seen as the more conservative of the two candidates and many conservative Republicans supported him. William F. Buckley, then editor of National Review (a leading conservative journal), even ran a joke campaign at the time called "Buckley's for Lieberman."

I was a young GOP activist in New York those days. I remember returning the local canvass on election night and when the t.v. said that Weicher had lost, people were actually happy.

I have edited the main page accordingly.

"Jewish American"
The opening words in Lieberman's article are "Jewish-American"? Whoever inserted this epithet should be ashamed. Do we label Kennedy "Irish-American" or Giuliani "Italian-American" (or either of them "Catholic-American")? As I understand it, second or third-generation Americans are spared these qualifiers.


 * Hes Jewish, hes American, therefore there is nothing wrong with saying "Jewish-American". Although this article has a tad to much on him being Jewish, its not like hes an Orthodox Jew, if he was Orthodox it would be fair to mention it, hes Reform, so hes basically as Jewish as Vladimir Putin.


 * First of all, Senator Lieberman *is* an Orthodox Jew, and proudly identifies himself as such, as he did during the 2000 presidential campaign. Secondly, Jews in America do not identify themself as "Jewish-Americans", with the possible exception of the most wishy-washy Reform Jewish. I have heard plenty of people use the terms "Jewish person" and "Jewish-American" because they think the very *word* Jew is an insult. The word Jew is not an insult - is is a perfectly valid way to describe someone who was either born Jewish, or has converted to Judaism. Nobody is doing Jews any favors by avoiding the word Jew. So when is the word an insult, I hear you ask? When it's used in obviously derogatory concepts, like as a verb ("he jewed me" connoting avarice) or with a modifying word ("a dirty Jew", "a cheap Jew", etc. etc.). Oversensitive, nervous gentile liberals, relax: it's perfectly alright to call a Jew a Jew.

Thanks to the June 12 "vandalism removal" the first paragraph of the article now makes no sense.


 * Don't worry. I've reverted it back. marbeh raglaim 02:38, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

faith
Lieberman has also faced some conflict from secular members of his own party who have questioned whether his religious values would interfere with his ability to impartially represent people of all (or no) faiths.

Why doesn't anyone ask secularists whether their lack of religious views would interfere with their ability to impartially represent religious people?

Answer: They do. Constantly.

Photo
Who changed his photo back to the older version? I believe to best represent him, one should use the most recent official picture.

"Lieberal"
I deleted the following sentence:


 * Satirical writer Robert Lanham coined Lieberal, based on Lieberman's name and beliefs, as a term for conservative Democrats.

I've never heard of Lanham or "lieberal" (Lanham's Wikipedia entry looks suspiciously like a vanity entry, see 69.203.207.56 contributions), and a Google search shows that this is not a common term by any stretch of the imagination. -- FRCP11 14:55, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Gang of 14
I really don't get why the second paragraph in this section is there. It doesn't seem to fit to me and it is redundant from the introduction of the article.Elipongo 02:51, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

"Joementum" article
I suggest we merge the Joementum article in to this article - considering it doesn't really give enough information to warrent it's own page on Wikipedia. I even suggest we cut it down to an external link in the presidential campaign category. --Toddbloom7 13:19, 23 January 2006 (UTC)


 * whoa, no so fast Todd. Joementum is here to say if I do say so myself.  --Ryan Utt 02:43, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Lieberman resemblence to Senator Palpatine
It's valid for the trivia section. Senator Joseph Lieberman does bear what many feel to be an incredible resemblence to the young Senator (and later Emperor) Palpatine from Star Wars. I challenge anyone reading this to look it up for themselves and deny it. Although George Lucas may have casted Ian McDiarmid in the role of the Palpatine character prior to Liebermans rise to the national stage, the resemblence is definitely worthy of mention. I would appreciate it if certain Wikipedia members would stop constantly deleting it, just because its true and it strikes a nerve with them.

I must agree with the aforementioned. I have taken the liberty of reposting the claim, and also providing what i feel to be unassailable proof of the resemblence. Some have said that this is a frivolous thing to include on an encycolopedic website. I would agree if the fact was posted anywhere else but the trivia section. Trivia, by its very definiton is trvial or fivolous knowledge. Bearing that in mind, I find the case against the Lieberman Palpatine resemblence to be short-sighted.

.....AND perhaps even partisan?


 * I would suggest you pay better attention to the Wikipedia policy on original research. marbeh raglaim 12:34, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Lieberman's religious identification
Lieberman is noted for being an observant Jew, and attends an Orthodox synagogue, though he is careful not to describe himself as "Orthodox,"[4] and does not wear a yarmulke in public.

As an Orthodox Jew myself, I consider the above statement biased and misleading for a number of reasons. First of all, it is perfectly valid and accepted for an Orthodox Jew not to wear a yarmulke to his job if it will interfere (though in practice few Orthodox Jews today exercise this leniency). For a more complete explanation, go to the following link:

http://ohr.edu/ask/ask286.htm#Q1

Second, a lot of people have misinterpreted the Larry King interview where Lieberman said he prefers to identify as "observant" rather than "Orthodox." Lieberman was not placing himself outside of the community commonly referred to as "Orthodox"; he was simply preferring one label to another. Orthodox Jews did not invent the word "Orthodox"; as the Wikipedia article on Orthodox Judaism correctly observes, the term was applied to them by the Reform in the nineteenth century, and it stuck. To this day, there are many Orthodox Jews who prefer to call themselves "observant." In fact, the most frequent term that Orthodox Jews use amongst themselves is the Yiddish term frum, which simply means "pious."

In a much less-quoted interview from a week after the one with Larry King, Lieberman began a sentence with the words "The fact that I'm Orthodox...." You can see for yourself at the following website:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics/july-dec00/lieberman_8-11.html

I think this should settle the question about Lieberman's self-identification. marbeh raglaim 01:03, 31 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I have changed the sentence to the following:


 * "Lieberman attends an Orthodox synagogue and identifies as an observant Jew."


 * I removed the part about him not wearing a yarmulke in public, since I don't think it has much bearing on this question. If anyone wants to modify the sentence further, we can discuss it, but I see this article isn't currently very active so I have had to make the changes on my own. marbeh raglaim 13:54, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

63.138.155.98
Senator Lieberman is well-known as being one of the few non-partisan members left in the United States Senate. He appears to have no alterior motives or political motives, he simply speaks for what he believes is right.

POV - RemovedVegasjon 05:11, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Liberman is pretty much a partisan hack, a republican partisan hack--152.163.100.69 01:02, 11 February 2006 (UTC)


 * In fact, Lieberman has consistently gotten a high rating from the Americans for Democratic Action, and a low rating from the American Conservative Union. This deserves mention in the article. marbeh raglaim 14:15, 19 February 2006 (UTC)


 * You're right that it should (and currently does). While I tried to balance the article somewhat with some sources, I definitely believe that evidence on all sides should be presented.  It's also true, however, that he often votes against Democratic filibusters and then against the Republican bill to keep his ADA ratings high, when the filibuster was the only way to stop it; and also rhetorically is the kindest prominent Democrat to Bush (unless you count Zell Miller, who I'm sure no longer considers himself a Democrat). KP 23:32, 31 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, and I'm the one who added that information into the article, after writing the above comment. In some ways, Lieberman strikes me as a Democratic version of John McCain. McCain is also viewed with some suspicion by party regulars, as if he's winking at the other party; yet his voting record is still basically conservative, just as Lieberman's is basically left-of-center. Both men have reputations as independent thinkers who speak their mind, and they both are more opportunistic than their admirers admit. Just as Lieberman had uncharacteristic words of praise for Louis Farrakhan apparently to attract the left toward the end of the 2000 election, McCain did something similar recently when he praised Jerry Falwell (whom he'd once denounced) to attract the right-wing. In short, Lieberman and McCain are sort of political mirror images of each other. marbeh raglaim 01:58, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't view them as mirror images. The closest thing to a mirror image of John McCain among Democrats might be former Nebraska Senator Bob Kerrey (not to be confused with 2004 presidential nominee John Kerry, a traditional Democrat).  Bob Kerrey definitely believes in Democratic principles and would never work very closely with Bush-- you didn't see McCain work closely with Clinton, either, the way Lieberman does with Bush.  Kerrey is a maverick who almost killed Clinton's deficit reduction package, and disagrees here and there with Democratic principles, but would be denouncing Bush very strongly if in the Senate, although voting with him on occasion when he agreed with him.


 * The closest thing to a Republican mirror image of Lieberman, IMO, was James Jeffords before Jeffords became an independent. Jeffords thought as much like the opposing party as his own, and for example was the one Republican to brank ranks and publicly support Clinton's health care plan.  Republicans believed that if Clinton got his health care plan through, it would realign the electorate in favor of the Democrats.  Jeffords didn't care, and backed it anyway.  McCain probably opposed the plan on its merits, but either way would have opposed it rather than realigning the electorate to favor Democrats.  Clinton would never have called McCain his favorite Republican, and I'd be shocked if McCain had appeared on Al Franken's liberal radio talk show (Lieberman goes on Sean Hannity's regularly).


 * The difference between a "maverick" party member like McCain or Bob Kerrey and a DINO/RINO like Lieberman or Jeffords, is that the mavericks still care a lot about the health of their party, where the DINO/RINOs don't care much, partially because DINO/RINOs think the opposing party has as much merit as their own-- which make them loved by the opposing party but offensive to members of their own. While you might point to Lieberman's voting record and say it's very much in line with his own party's-- and it's certainly fair to include that on the page-- here in the discussion section I will point out that Lieberman helps the Republicans on procedural votes and other things that don't show up on the record. KP 03:13, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Cite sources, please. What procedural vote has Lieberman helped Republicans on contrary to official Democrat whip policy?  The Alito filibuster doesn't count, because there were eighteen Democrats who recognized a filibuster was inappropriate vis-a-vis a Supreme Court nomination of a well-qualified candidate.  There are principled reasons to oppose filibusters.  -- FRCP11 04:06, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


 * It's not on the main page, but rather on the talk page, because I don't have sufficient sources to link to, to justify its inclusion on the main page. I do know of at least one other filibuster he definitely voted to break, and that was on the bankruptcy bill the banks wrote.  I also know he issued a rebuke to Democrats who criticized Bush's lack of integrity, and that I can cite a source for.


 * The main page needs to be NPOV, and I put nothing on there that wasn't well-cited. On this discussion page I don't think that applies so much.  If I were a politician I'd be regarded as either a moderate or maverick Democrat, like Bill Clinton or Bob Kerrey, so I'm not some left-extremist, and I was for the Iraq war for a long time.  I had no major problem with Lieberman until he became what I view as a Bush ally, rather than just a conservative Evan Bayh-style Democrat.  And to me the Alito filibuster counts, because I think Alito is like Robert Bork was, well qualified but a conservative ideologue who should be stopped by any legal means necessary due to his extreme views. KP 06:18, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Fair enough, but I still see plenty of similarities with McCain. It may be true that President Clinton never called McCain his favorite Republican, but many Democrats have in fact expressed that very sentiment, and likewise many Republicans have long considered McCain a closet liberal, despite his conservative voting record. In recent times, McCain has attempted to shatter this image by showing that he embraces the Republican program, and he has turned off many liberals or independents who once supported him.


 * Lieberman's career has numerous parallels to this, though not necessarily at the same time. He was long viewed by people on both the left and the right as a closet conservative. In the 2000 election, though, he tried to show that he fit the Gore ticket, and many Republican critics accused Lieberman of moving leftward by abandoning his previous commitment to such issues as social security privatization, opposition to affirmative action, and cracking down on the entertainment industry. I'm not saying these charges were all justified (I think some of them were oversimplifications of Lieberman's nuanced positions on certain issues), but they in many ways echo the criticisms that are now being leveled against McCain by people at the left and center. Of course since the 2000 election Lieberman has gone back to his moderate-Democrat roots, and his unqualified support for the Iraq war has caused him to lose credibility in the eyes of many Democrats. marbeh raglaim 06:49, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Alito--whose views are mainstream--had a cloture vote of 72-25. The Bankruptcy Bill--which was desperately needed because of systematic abuse of the old law that hurt honest consumers--passed the Senate 74-25 after a 69-31 cloture vote. Both had substantial bipartisan and public support. Lieberman's support for the Iraq war merely shows that he's consistent and doesn't abandon positions for political reasons, as compared to Edwards, and Kerry. (And Bill Clinton continues to support the war publicly, but is able to shut up about it.) -- FRCP11 14:22, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Alito's views are not at all mainstream, unless you think "mainstream" means the people have no rights. He's the right wing's ultimate dream justice, or at least I agree with this article from Slate that explains why.  He's the Bork they never got.


 * The bankruptcy bill was awful. The banking industry is by a large margin the most profitable industry in America (a fact pointed out by defenders of the oil industry; even now the oil industry is not raking it in like the banking industry), so they can afford to take losses when someone endures catastrophic events that force bankruptcy-- which is the most common reason.  That's why Clinton had vetoed a weaker version of the bill.  The one Lieberman voted for cloture on was worse, in that the banking industry practically wrote it.


 * Note also that there are very few blue state Democrats who voted for cloture on both of those votes. One must tolerate some pandering to conservative voters on the part of red state Democrats, as they have to in order to stay in office.


 * I'm not especially bothered by Lieberman's war stance. I'm not sure that Clinton's was the same, as I remember seeing Clinton before the war express reservations about it.  I was for the war, realizing my mistake around the time that John Murtha did, that it would be great if we could install a democratic government in Iraq but that it was unclear whether our continued presence there was helping or hurting, and that the cost in lives of remaining there for years wasn't worth it.  But Lieberman's position does not offend me.  I think Joe Biden's  is similar. Even his others wouldn't be such a big deal, except...


 * My real problem is that Lieberman seems to want to help Bush politically in the United States. Neither Bill nor Hilary Clinton, nor conservative red state Democrat Evan Bayh, nor war supporter Joe Biden, has intentionally given Bush political help in general (as opposed to supporting certain Bush policies). They all do what Democrats should, and try to hurt Bush's popularity as much as they can, still supporting specific initiatives they feel he's right on.  On Social Security, where Democrats should have united to blast Bush a new one, Lieberman tried to smooth things over and compromise.  Lieberman called for Democrats to stop bringing up Bush's lack of integrity.  He's a Bush ally, and once you cross that line you're a DINO in my opinion.

"Constitutional place for faith in our public life"
I noticed that Lieberman's religion was listed under "political views." Religion is not a political view--unless it can be related to his politics. That's why I stuck a quote into that section, where Lieberman calls for a "a constitutional place for faith in our public life." marbeh raglaim 14:12, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Stakes of 2006 elections
By the numbers, Democrats do not have "their best chance of taking over the Senate" since 2000. They DO have a near-guaranteed chance for a pickup or two, though, with very little chance (as in 02 and 04) of losing seats. Democrats are down more seats than in 02 or 04, and in each of those years they saw a legitimate chance to take over the Senate, but a comparable chance of losing a few seats. In 2006, only the greatest liberal optimists think we will get 50 democratic senators+Bernie Sanders. However, only the most optimistic right-wingers think Democrats won't pick up any seats. As a Democratic politico, I wanted the article to reflect that.

That said, I'm glad the article mentions the stakes in 2006 and what Democrats may lose by giving time and energy to Ned Lamont.

Merging trivia with main section
I took the following out of the trivia:

''*Because of his conservative views, Lieberman has often been described by critics as a DINO, and criticized for his willingness to take on his own party when he views them as wrong. However, He has consistently received a high rating from the Americans for Democratic Action and a low rating from the American Conservative Union. ''

I placed the essential information in the main section. Trivia should be reserved for tidbits like "Lieberman is 5 feet 8 inches tall" or "George H.W. Bush once banned broccoli from the White House." Things that aren't of great importance, but which might be of interest to...well, the sorts of people who like to collect trivia. Lieberman's political orientation is far too relevant to belong in the trivia section. marbeh raglaim 07:41, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 20:36, 3 May 2016 (UTC)