Talk:Joe Louis/Archive 1

Dates
Someone is very confused about the date of WW II here. Germany involvement was from 1939 to 1945 so the Schelling fights didn't happen during actual war. JidGom 09:53 16 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Beginning of career
Does anyone know where I can get info on who Joe Louis sparred with the start of his career? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.188.117.14 (talk • contribs) 12:18, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Burial
Is it normal customs that (some)one has to pay for a burial in Arlington? Pretty expensive to be an american hero... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.136.181.125 (talk • contribs) 23:24, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Mr. Louis's burial at Arlington was the result of intervention by then President Reagan. Ceasar's had planned to bury him somewhere on the hotel property and make an attraction out of it. When Reagan learned of this he was appalled and arranged for his burial at Arlington. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.122.187.234 (talk • contribs) 19:36, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Schmeling
The article states frequently that Schelling was most definitely not associated, or at most weakly associated with, the Nazi party. I saw a Black History month special on ESPN that seemed to say the opposite, although it may not be the most reliable source. Could more information be found on this? Dstarisbeastin 02:36, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

- You need look no further than wikipedia's entry on Schmeling for that information. Whatever special you saw was repeating the "common" view of Schmeling as the evil German Nazi, the sort of average joe's view that wasn't actually accurate. It would be the equivalent of the American public labelling a modern Arab champ as a terrorist for no real reason other than his ethnicity (though in this day and age that's far less likely). In reality Schmeling even went so far as to hide away Jews in his home. Anonymous 19:15, 06 April 2006 (UTC)
 * No one nowadays thinks of Max as an "evil nazi". He is widely recognised as being a hero on many fronts. His is a life that most of us would aspire to. Wallie 09:22, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Cannon quote
Jimmy Cannon did not write "Joe Louis is a credit to his race - the human race." in reaction to Louis's death in '81; Jimmy Cannon died in 1973. If you reread it, it doesn't actually say he wrote it in '81, but it is sort of implied. This might fit better at the end of the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.38.174.3 (talk • contribs) 14:26, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Jack Johnson preceded him
Most any capable Negro could become a boxer in the 1930s. Jack Johnson and various other negroes were boxers long before the appearance of Joe Louis. World War One featured many Negroes and Asian solders who were fighters. (many were slain, of course). WWI changed racial procedures in the United States.

It is, therefore, untrue that a so-called "Black" found it "difficult" to be a boxer. Other sports, particularly basketball, and professional baseball, were devoid of negroes, but not pugilism. Do not believe the zany statements that claim that negro boxers faced obstacles because of their skin color. Promoters welcomed anyone and everyone who could draw crowds and bring them money. Superslum 14:18, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Joe Louis (and  similar negroes) was a "brown-skinned" person, not a "black."  Joe Louis made a statement saying that he was more than 40 years old before anyone called him a "black."  Other negroes were 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100 or more years of age before anyone ever called them a "black." Even long dead negroes are now being called "blacks."  Mulattoes are being called "blacks," too. Promoters admired GREEN money, so anyone who was a crowd-pleaser, as Joe Louis was, could step into a boxing ring.  Skin color was not an issue for Joe Louis.  He was a person who could make Promoters rich.  Superslum 20:58, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Blacks were allowed to box in the USA but in the heavyweight division they were prevented from fighting for the championship. In several states "Jim Crow" laws prohibited mixed race bouts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Charladan (talk • contribs) 13:28, 18 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Therefore, Promoters staged fights elsewhere. Any Negro who could attract boxing fans could fight.  Boxing was unlike basketball and baseball.


 * Iceland was a place which completely banned Negroes as late as the 1960s. The United States was different from Iceland.  Joe Louis could not set foot on Iceland, but he could fight in most other nations.  "Jim Crow" rules had no effect on his career.  Promoters ignored "Jim Crow" laws.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Superslum (talk • contribs) 11:14, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The Joe Louis article is distorted due to the inclusion of racial comments. Superslum 11:30, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Please list these comments. If they are racial, they should be removed. You can also do that, if you want too. I would, but I don't know what you are referring to. There is no place for racism in these articles. Wallie 12:12, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Neutral article?
Why is this article not neutral? This article is flagged as being not neutral. Why? Wallie 14:31, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

One of Joe Louis' sparring partners was Joe Frazier's late trainer, Eddie Futch. Although promoters were willing to promote fights with black fighters (or any fighter of color for that matter), they did make much less in purse money that their white counterparts and usually had to fight each other many, many, times (there are some accounts that have Sam Langford and the black fighters of his era fighting each other at least 10 times each, with many of those bouts not recorded). CBL2 8:35, 21 May 2006


 * Those comments cannot be proven. People would not have attended boxing matches which featured the same two colored men fighting over and over.  They would have been fighting in vacant arenas.  100 years ago, people in the United States never spoke of "whites" and "blacks."  Racial madnesses were developed during the 20th century by eugenicists such as Francis Galton.  Today, comments related to "whites" and "blacks" are within thousands of Wikipedia's pages.  Those comments amount to distractions which ruin the content of the pages.  Those comments ought to be BANNED.HYPERDUNCE 18:05, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Orthodox
EDITORS -- When indicating the boxing style in any article about a boxer, be careful not to hyperlink the word "Orthodox" on its own. It must be done as "(brackets)Boxing|Orthodox(brackets)" - or readers who follow the link will be led to the article about various religions that are called "Orthodox" (e.g., Orthodox Judaism, Eastern Orthodox churches, etc.) -- all very interesting, but nothing to do with the sport of boxing, except maybe for the story about Jacob not letting go of the angel until the breaking of the day; but that was wrestling, not boxing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.200.116.13 (talk • contribs) 15:44, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Wealth
how much did louis earn in total from boxing - and did he "do a tyson" with his wealth- did he waste it all way? tali 17/08/06 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.195.163.43 (talk • contribs) 20:01, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Obviously, these comment regarding Mr. Louis' money show what little you know about him. He was "railroaded" by the US government. He volunteered for the army during WWII, visited over 5,000,000 american soldiers and staged exhibition fights (sometimes donating 100% of the proceeds to various war relief efforts/organizations.) He certainly had poor business advisors. When he had to pay back the government they taxed him at a rate of 90%!!! + the back taxes he owed. It was impossible for him to get out of debt which is why he did a variety of "odd jobs" (IE- variety shows, wrestling performances, game shows, "greeter" in vegas casinos, etc..) By the time the government "forgave" the remaining debt, he was old, ill and in financial ruins. The US government never took into consideration all of his acts of charity, etc.. By the way, it's not "upsurd" but absurd. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.189.35.249 (talk) 19:55, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I wonder this too, the article says heavy taxes made him poor which seems upsurd. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.206.165.28 (talk • contribs) 23:24, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

According to the article, Lewis donated a lot of his money to the federal government to support the war effort during WW2. Ironic.Originalname37 (talk) 15:48, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Added on to both Muhammad Ali and Joe Louis, discuss
Muhammad Ali's page says that he is widely regarded to be the greatest heavyweight champion of all time, while Joe Louis's page says the same thing. Something needs to be fixed. -Slash- 16:29, 8 October 2006 (UTC)


 * There is a lot of dispute about wheter Ali or Louis should be rated as the greatest heavyweight of all time, so for anyone to write that either is "widely regarded" to be the best is false. And this unsupported assertion should certainly not be included in the introduction to the article. MKil 20:05, 12 October 2006 (UTC)MKil


 * For this issue. I revised the introduction. (please see http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Louis&oldid=81385931). I think  the information below (from Cox's Cornor http://coxscorner.tripod.com/louis.html) is useful but have no idea how to put into the page. then i just added a note refering to. If you have any idea please do


 * Most boxing historians rate Joe Louis number one or number two on their list of the greatest heavyweights of all time. Eddie Futch, who devised the strategy that defeated Ali for both Joe Frazier and Ken Norton, considers Joe Louis to be the greatest of the all time heavies. The late editor of the Ring, Nat Loubet, rated Joe Louis number one on his list of heavyweight greats. Boxing historians such as Dan Daniel, Lew Eskin, Ted Carroll, and Bill Gallo all consider Joe Louis to be the greatest heavyweight champion. John Durant, author of "The Heavyweight Champions" rated him as the # 1 heavyweight of all time. Bert Sugar rates Joe Louis # 2 at heavyweight. The Aug. 1980 issue of the Ring rated Louis as the second greatest fighter in history behind only Sugar Ray Robinson. The Holiday 1998 issue of the Ring rated Louis second behind Muhammad Ali at heavyweight. Former heavyweight champ and boxing historian Mike Tyson, in the HBO video, "Tyson and the Heavyweights" (1988), said of Louis, "It's difficult to see anyone beating him even Muhammad Ali". Cox's Corner rates Joe Louis # 1 among All Time Heavyweights.


 * —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.64.100.231 (talk • contribs) 12:01, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Joe Louis & IRS
The article states that IRS harrassed Joe Louis and that IRS took all of Joe Louis's money away. As a CPA, it seems likely that if IRS was wrong, Joe Louis could have afforded good attorneys to successfully fight off IRS. That IRS won the fight against the fighter indicates that IRS was right. IRS took all of the GOVERNMENT'S money from Joe Louis. More research should be done on this area before labeling the IRS's activities as criminal. Short of more research, neutral terms could be used. "IRS harrassed Joe Louis" should be "IRS had a tax dispute with the Joe Louis." Also, "The IRS seized all the money Joe Louis possessed as payment for its tax assessments."

Steven Wrathell CPA swrathell@hotmail.com —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.216.130.103 (talk) 07:00, 12 December 2006 (UTC).

The IRS pursued Louis for taxes on contributions he made to military relief funds during the war (with the addition of interest and penalties of course). As you can imagine, some people see this as being somewhat unjust which is why it is sometimes described as harrassment. The IRS won the fight but the fact that Louis could not afford a legal battle by that stage definitely affected the outcome. Doc Meroe 03:31, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Liverpool F.C.

 * haha. did joe louis really play for Livepool? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.219.176.61 (talk • contribs) 17:13, 15 January 2007 (UTC) = The


 * No, hence I removed the category. Best name (talk) 23:59, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Template is malfunctioning
The template does not seem to allow his real name to be entered and instead just has [[[1]]]]--St.daniel 01:59, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Max Schmeling
I've just been watching a documentary and Louis actually lost the fight to Schmeling. I've actually seen pictures of the fight! I think at some point this page got vandalised and nobody noticed. Mglovesfun 13:04, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes actually the fight mentioned in this article is the rematch between louis and schmeling. The reason why he wanted to fight Schmeling in the first place was that Schmeling was at that point the only man to beat him. Mglovesfun 13:14, 29 January 2007 (UTC)


 * michael lee is amazing {{unsigned|69.148.242.127|22:34, 26 February 2007 (UTC}))

In the "Professional Record" section, shouldn't the flag displayed for Max Schmeling's country of origin depict the Nazi flag used at the time of the fights, rather than the current flag of Germany? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.213.143.242 (talk) 06:19, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Joe Louis' wife?
This article has absolutely no information on Joe Louis's wife. If one did not know he was married, they probably wouldn't find that out in this article. dbproguy 05:14, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

What do you need to know? Joe was divorced more than one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dale4sail (talk • contribs) 23:56, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


 * According to, there's the name "Martha Louis" on his gravestone. --Alvestrand (talk) 18:07, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Punches in a round
Can anybody help? An average boxer champion how many times will he hit an opponent, how many of those hits will land on the money? Marciano did it 90 times against Charles in their return bout. Do they mean it was 90 landed or 90-100 total? User_talk:Dale4sail dhe was a real girl my god — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.54.237.119 (talk) 00:40, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Joe and JFK
It is my unerstanding poor ol Joe owed uncle sam about a cool mil. When JFK found out, he was upset. He gave old Joe complete pardon. I do not know presidents can forfeit income tax debts? Keep in mind Old Joe did a lot for uncle Sam. During WW II he had about 100 exhibitions in the artmy, for free. To keep soldiers' morals up. Go figure. And in the end... he died insane and poor. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dale4sail (talk • contribs) 23:59, 3 April 2007 (UTC).

Skill?
Everyone here will probably kill me for this, but when i saw him on youtube, i was not impressed in the least. he has great punching power, quick hands, but his footwork his horrible. he kept on tripping. i saw some more video's of him, and i noticed the same thing each time. he was an amazing puncher, but he couldn't chase after an opponent to well. that is a thing which makes me wonder about whether he really could have beaten ali. ali would have made him dance around, and i think that would have been to much for him to handle. either that, or ali would have annoyed him to death with his endless offensive quips ;). but still, did anyone else notice that?  how he could barely chase after people without tripping? {{unsigned|Coolkider|20:12, 13 April 2007 (UTC}))


 * you have no clue as to his power and the article doesnt cover it...yep ali could dance better but had no power compared to joe lois...that power is exemplified by his breaking a vertebrae in the back of max schmeling by a body punch; so it wasn't just hand speed, but devastating hand speed resulting in no. one punching power of all time, as it is repeatedly so ranked by those who understand; and it is decepttive as it appears to be short punches and not much ; but those punches severely damage and knock opponents out better than any other fighter in history; and so yes, ali could dance better, but

when hit, as he surely would be by joe, he would be down and out....same as all others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.195.72.109 (talk) 08:56, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

yeah i saw joe once. he sucked the living shit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.164.38.195 (talk • contribs) 00:49, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Ummmm.... he was probably the second greatest boxer after muhammad ali. What the hell are you talking about? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.167.71.133 (talk • contribs) 23:55, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

As mentioned in the article, he was much less impressive in his later fights. He fought long past his prime.Originalname37 (talk) 15:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Helio Gracie trivia
I don't see how this is notable to the career of Joe Louis. Someone few have heard of challenged him to an unfair fight, and he declined. I'm removing it. Shaun Phillips 20:12, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Joe Louis's Funeral
Max Schmelling paid for Joe Louis's funeral (among other things.) One of the Jewish men (Henri Lewin) he saved during the Kristallnacht pogrom had become a successful hotel owner in America. When Max heard Joe had died he telegrammed this friend to ask that he pay what was needed for the funeral and Max would re-imburse him. And so it was, Max paid for the funeral. You will find evidence of this on the official Auschwitz site. (www.auschwitz.dk/schmeling.htm Not a terribly accurate web page (in respect of Max), but does get that piece of information correct.)

I'll try dig out a quote from Max Schmelling's Autobiography as I hope this item will be edited to reflect Max's humility. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.242.202.123 (talk • contribs) 00:35, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

As far as I know, Joe Louis served honorably in the US Army, and therefore he would not need an 'exemption' from Ronald Reagan to be buried at Arlington Cemetery - accordingly, either the comment about Reagan is incorrect or there is some other relevant reason why Joe Louis was not otherwise qualified to be buried at Arlington. 203.47.220.118 (talk) 12:10, 4 June 2008 (UTC)Ken Harvey

Maybe "exemption" is the wrong word but I believe very few veterans actually get buried at Arlington (there's not enough room), so there might have been an "exception" made for someone whom I believe never actually saw combat. Historian932 (talk) 13:53, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Someone has (quite properly) challenged the lack of reliable substantiation for the claim that Schmeling paid for (or towards) Louis's funeral. I noted that the claim also appears in the article on Max Schmeling in which this page is cited--but not what I would call a reliable source. At this webpage on the Joe Louis Memorial in Detroit, it's said that Schmeling regularly sent money to Joe and is believed to have paid for his funeral. Still not good enough, eh? Still, why would anyone want to remove this 'belief' when it is at least capable of verification or falsification. It seems to be an established fact that Joe Louis was broke in old age, courtesy of the tax man and probably poor management. Cheers Bjenks (talk) 14:54, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Quotes are wrong or redundant
In the opening paragraph: "A Trinidadian writer, C.L.R. James characterized Louis as 'a credit to his race — the human race.'" And later: "'His life and his achievements prompted famed New York sportswriter Jimmy Cannon to write 'Joe Louis is a credit to his race - the human race.' He believed that boxing was his only way of life.'" Not to mention that 'He believed that boxing was his only way of life.' makes no sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.65.171.198 (talk) 05:25, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Misattributed quote?
"Everyone has a plan until they've been hit". I think that was actually Mike Tyson. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.14.154.3 (talk) 17:01, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Personal Life section reworked
I checked this Discussion page and found nothing about his golf adventures, and I felt it needed to be highlighted as a section all its own as it's an important part not only of his life, but of the entire game of golf if you follow the trail that he started in 1952 PGA events, which Tiger Woods said had led to his dad Earl getting involved in golf, which led to Tiger's involvement in the game. The Personal Life section also had his tax & financial troubles bundled into it, which needed a section of his own as they were well-known. I feel the article has more of a formal encyclopedic/book structure to it with the new sections added and I hope everybody enjoys the edits & finds them an improvement.24.197.2.22 (talk) 05:04, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Tags
Are the tags at the top still needed? - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 01:50, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Quality of opposition
Joe louis only defeated bums his entire career.His fight with Schmielming is a propsaganda stunt.He lost both to ezzard charles and Rocky Marciano.Considering the argument of quality of opposition why is this dude even mentioned in the greatest heavyweights of all times list? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Neohertz (talk • contribs) 08:55, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Wartime poster
There is already a wartime poster in the article, but I thought I should bring people's attention to this one as well... -Miskaton (talk) 15:21, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

I just undid
an editor who changed Louis' career statistics. W-L, and that sort of thing. When I went to research his record I discovered that several different web sites have several different sets of numbers. Perhaps someone good at that sort of thing could figure out what his record was? Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 17:00, 17 November 2013 (UTC)