Talk:Joe Paterno/Archive 1

argument for including 1994 team on page
I think it is strange that all mention of the '94 team has been removed from the page. Although I see the argument for creating a page with this particular story, the fact of the matter is that the 1994 team was undefeated and denied even a share of the National Championship -- this is believed to be a major impetus for the creation of the current "Bowl Championship Series". This is a major part of Paterno's legacy -- he has had many undefeated, uncrowned teams. While you claim that saying something along the lines of the "most powerful offense" does not belong here, I believe that mentioning where this team stands in the NCAA rankings for certain statistical categories (which I believe they still are #1 in at least 1), and the fact that this team had 3 first round NFL draft picks from the offense, the entire offense go to the NFL for at least training camp, and has 5 players still active in the NFL after 10 years is unparalleled. These are facts, not opinions, about the strength of that 1994 Penn State team. Removing all mention of this team is doing a major disservice to Paterno in that it is well known by those of us who follow PSU football, but someone looking for info from the Wikipedia about his achievements will be left thinking that his last successful team was in 1986, 8 years prior to the 1994 team.

I find it quite odd that in defending why this team is not included in the page, the discussion has opinion about the strength of the 1994 Nebraska team. Why is sportswriter opinion about the strength of that team acceptable evidence of its strength, and yet opinion about Penn State's strengths are rejected as not fact? The article cited in the discussion about the strength of the Nebraska team merely ranks teams by number of championships and overall number of wins since 1869. What does this have to do with a comparison of the 1994 Nebraska team to the 1994 Penn State team? I think that for a sample of how football fans rank the 1994 Penn State team, you should see this link: http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/readers/bestCollegefb.html

Since I'm new to this forum and new to making edits, I will not add text on a topic that you consider to be not relevant, but I think that you are 100%, absolutely wrong that a discussion of the 1994 team does not belong on this page. For balance, I would not object to adding information on Paterno's worst team statistically, or an overview of the losing seasons since 2000, but the neglect of the 1994 team is a travesty.
 * Go for it. I won't object to putting it back up, though I think it's really not needed. In my opinion, it's just fodder for more Nittany Lion fans to vent about getting the shaft because they thought they were better than Nebraska that year. The BCS was coming regardless of the outcome of this game, it had been in the works before the season had even begun. If rehashing a silly argument like this helps you cope with it, then fine.  I too follow PSU, I am a huge fan, and I know what lengths these devotees will go to make sure people know that they feel they were robbed of the MNC. YOu can cite ESPN opinion articles all you want, they are the same organization that said PSU was going to lose 5-6 games this year.  AriGold 19:34, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

AriGold is 100% right. The 1994 controversy is nothing more than a speculation laced complaint against the system as it was at the time. The entry is also not neutral because it does not mention any reasons why Nebraska should have won the national championship. If it was listed under a separate listing citing Nebraska's point of view as well, then it has a place. However, leaving it under Joe Paterno's entry is really an insult against him, because instead of listing facts on his life, its a gigantic "what if."


 * I'm sorry -- I guess I didn't get my point across. I am not advocating for discussing the controversy over who should have won the MNC in 1994, I'm saying that there should at least be some mention of the fact that the 1994 team was so successful.  I just think you threw out the baby with the bathwater -- by removing the text on the controversy, it appears as if the 1994 team never existed. I'm envisioning something along the lines of, "In 1994, Joe Paterno coached Penn State to its fifth undefeated regular season and concluded with a Rose Bowl win over the University of Oregon."  Add in some mention of the strength of that team, either via NCAA statistics or number of NFL draft picks (if I recall 3 in the top ten) and end with a sentence like "finished #2 in the polls to Nebraska, which was controversial".
 * Ideally, this stuff should be moved into a page on the Nittany Lion football team, should such an article ever be created. --Jtalledo (talk) 04:48, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

3.5 million dollar donation
Actually 250,000 with the Paternos helping to raise 13.5 million See: http://www.psu.edu/ur/archives/Libraryfunding.html and http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/news/special_packages/150_years/10961935.htm and http://www.libraries.psu.edu/tour/paternoext.html

"most powerful offense in the history of college football
That belongs on a PSU fan board for debate, not wikipedia. AriGold 5 July 2005 12:30 (UTC)

I'd imagine USC fans might have something to say about this.

'94 Nebraska
It is not a fact that most fans think PSU got snubbed, though they did ;-). The fact is, polls came out in NU's favor and so do most writers still, claiming that NU team was one of the best ever.  See Billingley for just one example http://www.cfrc.com/Archives/Top_Programs_2004.htm AriGold 5 July 2005 12:30 (UTC)

No, it's the 1995 Huskers are on the "best ever" lists. I don't think I've seen even one best ever list with the 1994 Huskers (unless that list was just putting all the undefeated teams on it). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tjmpb (talk • contribs) 00:14, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Most Wins at 1 University
Paterno doesn't hold that record. John Gagliardi currently owns a 397-111-10 record at Saint Johns U, as of Nov. 13, 2004.

Yeah, at a Division 3 school not Division 1. Nobody would last that long at Division 1 why do you think the record is only 42 years.

Gagliardi has a .782 winning percentage. Nobody lasts long in Division one? What about Joe Paterno. Don't slam Gagliardi because he is Div III. He chose to stay there. Both Paterno and Gagliardi are outstanding coaches in there own right. --Npnunda (talk) 04:49, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Bowden Issue
This is getting pretty petty with the whole Bowden's wins shouldn't count thing. I don't feel it's necessary on the page, but if the majority feel clarification is in order, I propose this:

"Though, many Joe Pa loyalists argue that 31 of Bowden's wins should not be counted as they came while Bowden was the head coach at Howard College, which is now Samford University, a Division I-AA football program. The debate arises because during the time Bowden was at Howard, there were no distinctions bewteen Divison 1 and Division 1-AA in college football. Bowden is credited with the record because the NCAA rule states that to be eligible for the record all one needs is 10 years at a major (Division I-A) school, and all wins at any four-year school at which you coached count on the all-time listing." Posted by AriGold --Spangineer (háblame)  June 28, 2005 19:40 (UTC)


 * I think it should be on here, though I agree that it's a bit trivial (especially considering the current size of the article). But as the article grows, a paragraph like the one you suggest is going to be necessary. I'd say put it in now, and maybe add another line right after it mentioning that JoePa has the record for most victories while coaching for a single school. --Spangineer  (háblame)  June 28, 2005 19:40 (UTC)
 * Good call. I guess as the page gets bigger it won't seem so silly to have 1/4 of it dedicated to a silly argument. AriGold 28 June 2005 19:56 (UTC)

Actually it is the way the records' title is presented. Strictly speaking Bowden is the "Winningest division I-A coach of all time." Simply because he is currently a division I-A coach. We all know the phrase, perception is reality. The general public believes when they see this that it is like comparing apples to apples. They should simply say that 31 of Bowden's win's were accumulated at in division II-A schedule. They actually did have divisions back then they just were not called I-A and II-A. The Samford's of the world never played the larger moe powerful schools. (source Samford University archives, PDF file)I will give Bowden this he still had to win those games with the team he had.

A few years ago I broke down all of Bowden's wins. http://sportsforum.ws/showthread.php?t=133871

But even IF one allowed Bowden to count the wins at Samford against similar schools, that doesn't mean that he should be able to count wins against Gordon Junior College, the Tennessee Tech Freshman team, Millington Naval Air Station, and The University of Mexico--these teams are not D-IAA, DII, DIII, or even NAIA. Also, he has 18 wins against teams not currently in Division I-A while coaching at a Division I-A school. Paterno has just 4. So that's 18 - 4 = 14 more non-Division IA wins than Paterno plus the 4 non anything (not DII, DIII, or even NAIA) schools just listed = 17 wins that shouldn't count when comparing to JoePa even if allowing Bowden's 27 other Samford wins.

Child of the Depression
Correct me if I'm wrong, but "Paterno started life as a child of the Depression" would be inaccurate as the Crash didn't happen until 1929 and he was born in '26. He was born into the "roaring 20's". Semantics, I know, but this is an encyclopedia...
 * Well, the article says he was a child during the depression which is true, not born during the depression. It even provides evidence to that fact with the line that he almost had to leave school because his family could not afford to send him to it. --Jtalledo (talk) 00:31, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Sportsman of the year
A comment should be added about how Paterno was Sportsman of the year by Sports Illustrated for 1986, being the first (only?) college coach to be thus honored.
 * Dean Smith (head basketball coach at UNC) was the 1997 SI Sportsman of the Year, so JoePa wouldn't be the "only college coach", but he was the first. AriGold 15:18, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Records and Controversies section out of control
As stuff has been added and added over time, the Records and Controversies section has gotten pretty large, and its content doesn't even reflect the title of the section anymore. I propose doing the following: Barring major objections, I plan to do this myself (or get it started, rather), but I wanted to put a topic on discussion first as this will be a rather big change. --Mithunc 20:06, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Seperating "Accomplishments", "Controversies", and "History" or something along that line into seperate sections (all three of these things are currently blended together in that section)
 * Organizing the Controversies into chronological order
 * Fleshing up the information that's already there to give a more complete "History" section

Go for it! Dincher 20:30, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds great to me. --Spangineerws (háblame)  17:25, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I've completed a major edit and it may not be as comprehensive as I wanted, but I think the article's a bit better than it was before. I might do more later but it will benefit most from the continued contributions of others. --Mithunc 21:29, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Stuff I removed:

This text is just way TMI for a section on JoePa's accomplishments. There isn't any mention of it on the Bobby Bowden page so I went ahead and removed it from here as well.


 * It should be noted that some of Paterno's loyalists argue that 31 of Bowden's wins should not be counted as they came while Bowden was the head coach at Howard College, which is now Samford University, a Division I-AA football program. However, during Bowden's tenure at Howard, there were no distinctions between Division I-A and Division I-AA as the Division system had not yet been created in college football. There were distinctions between "major" and "small" colleges however, that translate to I-A and I-AA programs. Bowden is credited with the record because the NCAA rule states that to be eligible for the record one needs 10 years at a Division I-A school, at which point all wins at any four-year school are counted toward the career total. Paterno's 21 wins in bowl games give him the all-time lead among Division I-A coaches; Bowden is second with 19 bowl wins. Despite the comparisons of on the field performances, Paterno and Bowden are actually friends, often spending time together when they attend coaches' conventions.

This text belongs in the 2005 Penn State Nittany Lions football team article which doesn't exist.
 * The 2005 Nittany Lions compiled a 10-1 regular season record; their only loss was a 27-25 "heartbreaker" at Michigan. Michigan scored with an 11-yard touchdown pass from Chad Henne to Mario Manningham on the game's final play, which began on the final second of the game. Earlier in their game-winning drive, Michigan called its last timeout with 30 seconds left on the clock, however while one official whistled for the timeout immediately, the clock operator did not notice the referee's signal until the clock read "00:28." Michigan Coach Lloyd Carr successfully lobbied the officials to add two seconds back onto the clock, adding some controversy to the last-second victory.

Same with this.
 * With a 7-1 conference record, Penn State shared the Big Ten title with Ohio State. However, the Nittany Lions were granted the Big Ten's automatic BCS bid (Penn State's first BCS appearance) by virtue of their 17-10 victory over the Buckeyes. On January 3 (and the early morning hours of January 4), 2006, Paterno and the #3 ranked Nittany Lions defeated the #22 ranked Florida State Seminoles and his old friend and rival Bobby Bowden 26-23 in three overtimes in the Orange Bowl to finish 11-1.

This belongs in the 2006 Penn State Nittany Lions football team article somewhere.
 * On a November 4, 2006 game against Wisconsin, Penn State tight end Andrew Quarless was tackled by Wisconsin linebacker DeAndre Levy and fell out of bounds. In the process Levy's helmet collided with Paterno's left knee. According to a Penn State press release, Paterno suffered a tibial plateau fracture of his left leg and ligament damage in his knee. He is expected to fully recover from surgery and had initially planned to coach Penn State's next game on November 11 against Temple, possibly from a box above the field. However, Paterno has been hospitalized since the incident, and decided not to coach his team against Temple, turning it over to his assistants. Paterno was involved in a similar, but much less serious, accident on September 26, 2006 when players Spencer Ridenhour and Andrew Quarless ran into him during practice. According to his surgeon, Paterno had three broken ribs from that incident.

Cheers, --Mithunc 21:39, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Far too much original research
The amount of uncited speculation, especially with regard to Paterno's stances on things such as academics, freshman playing time, and politics, is getting out of control. Does anyone have any good resources we can use to back these sections up so they don't have to end up being removed in the very near future? PSUMark2006  talk  |  contribs  22:52, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Given enough time, we should be able to cite just about everything using Collegian, CDT, and ESPN.com articles alone. Good thinking to bring it up though. I'll try to help when I find some free time. --Mithunc 19:47, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Bowden issue revisited
I've just edited the Paterno/Bowden paragraph to simplify it, reflecting the concerns expressed above that it takes up too much space in an encyclopedia article with what could be considered special pleading. Before immediately reverting my edit, please consider whether all that detail is really justified. The essence of the argument is still in the paragraph as rewritten, and readers looking for further details can consult this talk page. For those interested, the more detailed accounting is as follows:

31 of Bowden's career victories were earned while coaching at Howard College, now known as Samford University. Samford does not play major college football, and all of Bowden's 31 victories at Howard/Samford were earned against teams not currently in Division I-A, including wins over The University of Mexico, Gordon Junior College, Millington Naval Air Station, and the Tennessee Tech Freshman Team. Bowden also has 18 victories while coaching at West Virginia and Florida State against schools that are currently not in Division I-A, for a total of 49 non-Division I-A victories. So 49 of Bowden's 366 victories came against schools not currently in Division I-A, but only 5 of Paterno's 364 victories came against schools not currently in Division I-A, most recently coming against Division I-AA Youngstown State in a 37-3 victory in 2006.Jbening 23:03, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * That's a BS comment, look at the NCAA rules for determining the 1-A winningest coach. If you make that determination you have to discount half of the top 10 winningest coaches to include Pop Warner and Alonzo Stagg, and a Big 10 coach in Woody Hayes.  It seems Penn State fans want to change the NCAA rules.  I guess the rules don't matter.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.205.94.186 (talk) 01:24, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Box formatting and section edit links
Something (I think) about how the coachbox is formatted causes all the section edit links to be clustered together at the bottom of it, thus causing them to overlap with text. Could someone who understands wikipedia formatting better than I fix this?Jbening 23:11, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Just fixed it by moving second table lower in the source code.Jbening 23:40, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Paterno/Bowden change war
There's been a flurry of activity on this page in the past few days, with two different unregistered users removing a bit discussing the career records of Paterno vs. Bowden, and two different registered users putting it back. While there hasn't yet been a straightforward 3-revert situation, I think it's time we talk this over rather than just undoing each other's edits.

As I see it, the wording currently included (as of my last undo):

1) acknowledges that Bowden has more career wins according to NCAA criteria

2) offers factual material as to the number of non-Div I-A wins by each coach

As regards presentation, it strikes me as neutral POV. One could argue whether it is relevant to a discussion of Paterno's career. I would argue it is because:

1) In one wording or another, it has been in the article for some time now (long before I got involved anyway, see history), and thus its presence appears to reflect the consensus of opinion on the article.

2) The most-wins record in college football is a big deal, and either Bowden or Paterno is going to end up holding a record that very likely will never be beaten. While the position of the NCAA is clear, it is a tribute to Paterno that he has racked up all of his wins at a Div I-A school, and almost all against Div I-A teams. While Bowden may well retire with the record according to clearly delineated NCAA rules, the nature of Paterno's accomplishment is certainly relevant to a discussion of his career.

I hope this change war isn't just a matter of Paterno vs. Bowden loyalties. So could anyone who's inclined to eliminate the passage in question please make a case for why, according to Wikipedia conventions, it shouldn't be in the article?Jbening 21:35, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


 * As one of the participants in this editing process, I have highlighted the section that I think may upset some, certainly not me, my loyalties are firmly on the side of Joe Paterno,  so Paterno actually has more wins than Bowden against teams at the highest level of college football. seems to be the non neutral POV sentence, perhaps it could reworded slightly to say, it could be argued that, Paterno actually has more wins than Bowden against teams at the highest level of college football. Dincher 04:13, 15 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Last night, I found myself coming around to your way of thinking. While I still view that last clause as neutral POV, for the reason I gave in my reversion of your edit, I can see now how it wouldn't look that way to others. How about concluding the sentence instead with, "so that Paterno has 360 Division I-A wins and Bowden 318." That would get the point across in a more clearly factual way.Jbening 14:49, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. Go for it. Dincher 16:32, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Seems to me that what Paterno fans want is for the truth to get out about what exactly the title "Winningest coach" means. If you go by total numbers across divisions, Eddie Robinson has the most wins from Grambling. If you go by total numbers of Division IA wins, then Paterno has the most wins. If you go by this elusive title that Bowden holds, then it's the total number of Division IA wins + non Division IA wins by a Division IA coach. Which of these records is the most important? It seems to me that it would be deceitful to call someone other than Barry Bonds the "homerun king" if they had more home runs if and only if you counted their MINOR LEAGUE home runs. When the average person wants to know about record holders, they are usually asking about who has the most wins at the HIGHEST LEVEL. Therefore, when many people think that Bowden's "winningest coach" title is for the most Division IA wins, then it's an injustice to perpetuate that myth. Why not let the numbers speak for themselves? You can call Bowden "The best coach in the whole wide world" but what exactly does that mean? Is seems that Bowden fans are afraid to back up the title with the definition. ed4321 16:54, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

DON'T COME OVER TO CHANGE THE BOBBY BOWDEN PAGE TO YOUR IDEALS
Screamingtrees has come over to modify our page to YOUR ideals. Like it or not Bobby Bowden is the winningest coach of the FBS division. The NCAA as well as the popular media have said the title belongs to Bobby, Joe Pa is currently second if you want to rationalize you belief do it here leave our page to the way we want to present Bobby Bowden otherwise it is considered vandalism. UkrNole 485 22:40, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Take it down a notch. If it's fact that Bowden doesn't have as many wins at the Top division as Paterno (yes, even counting Paterno being in the hospital), then it's not vandalism -- it's just fact. These titles are **ARBITRARY** and made by the NCAA - because they could just as easily make up a title for the coach that has worn a green hat in the most Division IA games. That could be a title. So why not let everyone know what these titles actually mean? The NCAA can make up the title "winningest coach", but it's fraud to not allow people to know that the definition of the title includes wins from schools that are in lower tiers. It's just deceitful to make up titles and throw them around without explaining what's behind them. The fact is the college football coach with the most wins, period, is Ed Robinson from Grambling (yes, Grambling is a school in a lower tier). The fact is that the college football coach with the most wins against Division IA teams is Paterno. If anything, Bowdens title is confusing unless it's explained what it actually means. It should be defined that the "winningest coach in Division IA" does not mean that he won the most Division IA games (as some people assume when they hear that arbitrary title). If these "titles" were defined correctly, then it might lower the tone on both sides. Ed4321 11:21, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Screamingtrees
That's your first warning! —Preceding unsigned comment added by UkrNole 485 (talk • contribs) 22:47, 17 September 2007 (UTC)


 * UkrNole, could you dial it down a bit? As I noted on the Bowden talk page, there are no "our" pages or "your" pages. I'm going to edit your edit, since the way it reads now sounds amateurish to me. And again, I want to emphasize that I have no affiliation to either school, and nothing but admiration for both coaches. Jbening 01:32, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Division I-A
I've just subtly changed the first paragraph to read Paterno has won more football games against teams currently in Division I-A (now called I-FBS) than any other coach in history. Earlier it just said Paterno has won more Division I-A football games than any other coach in history. There's a difference. Division I-A didn't exist till 1978. For the earlier wording to be correct, Paterno would have to have won more games since 1978 against teams in Division I-A at the time the games were played. That's almost certainly not true, since some of his best seasons were before 1978. Given all the recent to-do on the Paterno and Bowden pages, I think it's important to be precise. Jbening 18:44, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that the latest changes are great. Hopefully others do as well and the changes will remain. Dincher 20:15, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks. You mean for more than 45 minutes? Jbening 22:45, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Looks good to me! Of course, with the way that the Seminoles are playing this year, JoePa may overtake Bowden overall by seasons' end. ;-) Billma 00:45, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

372 or 373 wins
This article gives Paterno 373 wins, but the official Penn State bio says 372 wins. I believe that the article should reflect the record that is stated on Paterno's Penn State bio here. Thoughts?Dincher (talk) 15:02, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I am looking for a discussion on the above question. We seem to be in the midst of an edit war. I would like to reach a consensus here before the edit war continues. Dincher (talk) 00:17, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
 * It would be nice to get it straightened out. In the body of the article it says 373, but in the record it says 372. Cardsplayer4life (talk) 19:47, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the input. Do you think it should say 372 or 373? My choice is 372 since that is what is supported by the official bio. Dincher (talk) 19:57, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Hospitalization
I'm questioning whether or not this section deserves to be on the page. It was just dehydration and likely won't be significant in the long run. I know it's current news, but in a month or two this will be forgotten about. Monkey Bounce (talk) 20:06, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I will delete it now. Dincher (talk) 20:10, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Salary
I read in a magazine, I think ESPN, maybe SI....that his salary is 1.5 million a year. I realize his "base salary" is listed on here, and you mention that there can be more bonuses, but you don't even show an estimate of how high it may be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zlj2755 (talk • contribs) 20:47, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Salary reference is invalid.
And thus should be summarily removed, edited or otherwise be reverted to a previous state. Unless someone cares to actually work with this crack job website with its plethora of obsolete, missing reference. This article is just an example. Imagine now out of the millions of pages of useless 'verified' information with little to no real value of any educational standard.

I'm sure there are a plethora of Kenn Ross, and Dexter Manley who will 'expertly' disagree with this sentiment. 65.102.29.243 (talk) 04:26, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Political donations
An unregistered user and "Newsmeat" have some incorrect information. There are two Joseph Paternos. JoePa is Joseph V. Paterno. Jay Paterno is also named Joseph. He's the Joseph Paterno that donated to Sestak, Obama and Scott Paterno. Joseph V., the head coach, did not donate to the Democrats in question. Check the zip codes and earlier news articles about this before posting incorrect information. link here Dincher (talk) 04:15, 5 January 2011 (UTC)