Talk:Joe Scarborough/Archive 4

Jeffrey Epstein conspiracy theories
Here's my suggestion for how to improve the article. Thoughts?

"In August 2019, Scarborough drew criticism after posting conspiracy-driven tweets about the death of Jeffrey Epstein. Scarborough tweeted: "A guy who had information that would have destroyed rich and powerful men's lives ends up dead in his jail cell. How predictably...Russian.""

-- Tobby72 (talk) 09:09, 28 October 2019 (UTC)


 * I don't see why this is under political career not media career.--Jack Upland (talk) 04:17, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Lori Klausutis
I don't care much either way, but shouldn't there be some mention of this subject in a factual, neutral, and verifiable way on this article? The president did recently bring it up. And it's nothing new. Here's what an editor from over a decade ago came up with for how to address the issue: Talk:Joe Scarborough/Lori Klausutis. -- Veggies (talk) 12:20, 13 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Well, if we include Scarborough's comments about Epstein, we should include the Klausutis incident too.--Jack Upland (talk) 04:25, 14 May 2020 (UTC)


 * According to that subpage, the consensus back then was to include brief text on the issue, with wording hashed out after some debate. How and when did that get removed? It seems like that text ought to be there, along with a brief update mentioning how the president has brought it up recently. &#42;Dan T.* (talk) 13:50, 24 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Regardless of why it was removed - or never inserted in the first place - unless there was a RfC - we can reinsert it now because there is a consensus.--Jack Upland (talk) 16:53, 24 May 2020 (UTC)


 * The text was there once. It should be re-added immediately, given the existing consensus. EWBlyden 85 (talk) 01:50, 25 May 2020 (UTC)


 * I have re-added the consensus text with some copy-editing. It still needs more work, especially on the references, as well as a brief mentions of Trump's foray into the topic.--Jack Upland (talk) 02:44, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

I suggest it not be re-added without making it BLP compliant, if at all. O3000 (talk) 15:09, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
 * "In 2003, he joked about the incident with Don Imus on Imus' radio program". I'm not sure why this is in there. Imus brought up an off-colour joke about an "intern". Klausutis was not an intern. Scarborough laughed and said, "What can you do?" If there was outcry about this exchange, we should say that, but I don't think an off-colour joke in itself is worth mentioning, and it seems to me to be a smear.--Jack Upland (talk) 21:03, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I temporarily removed the Klausutis text for several possible BLP problems:
 * 1) This obviously should not be in the middle of the resignation section as it is unrelated and appears to support the false allegation that there is a connection.
 * 2) It suggests possible foul play by stating that she died of a head injury in his office, without mentioning the actual cause of death from the coroner’s report.
 * 3) I can’t find the source for the Imus joke or see how it is related.
 * 4) I cannot find the source for the Michael Moore comment or how it is related.
 * 5) There is an odd link to msnbc.msn.com within a cite that I don’t understand.
 * Speaking of coroner's report, you mean this guy? 🤪 Kingoflettuce (talk) 16:44, 26 May 2020 (UTC)


 * MOS:BIO states that events should be in chronological order. The death came when he was resigning from office, so it belongs there chronological. The allegation against him is relevant, as it has been made against him by the US President no less, and this allegation relates to his resignation. If it wasn't for the allegation against him, the death would be irrelevant here, and there would be no reason to include it. The resignation section seems to me to be the right section for this. Michael Moore also alleged that Scarborough was involved, so it is clearly related. I agree that the Imus joke shouldn't be included, so I will remove that. I will restore everything else. As I said, it needs improvement, especially with citations, but that's no reason to remove it. There is a clear consensus to include this incident.--Jack Upland (talk) 21:21, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
 * They should be in chronological order within a section. No way that this belongs in the resignation section as there is no connection. The fact that Trump is making wild, evidence-free, accusations that she was killed by a person nearly 1,000 miles away as opposed to having a heart condition is no reason for an encyclopedia to suggest such a connection. This is still a WP:BLP. I have no idea why Michael Moore is relevant, even if I could find a source -- which I can't. O3000 (talk) 21:28, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The articles sourced for the claim that he was in Washington at the time all make reference to when the body was found, which was the day after she was killed. This according to the coroner's report. Unless you find a source that explicitly places him in Washington on the day of her death, not when her body was found, this "evidence" does not exonerate him at all, in fact it is misleading and i will seek to have it removed. Strangestlove (talk) 04:34, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I believe your restoration is a serious BLP violation and suggest you self-revert until we come to a consensus. O3000 (talk) 21:29, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Scarborough is covered by WP:PUBLICFIGURE. There is a clear consensus to add this.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:32, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
 * There is no consensus to include it with all the BLP violations. And, PUBLICFIGURE does not give you free reign to smear a BLP. O3000 (talk) 00:36, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
 * There was clear consensus to insert the text that I added. If there are problems, fix them.--Jack Upland (talk) 01:30, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I saw no consensus for the text as it was -- and would be shocked if so. I did fix most of them -- when I had time as you failed to do so. O3000 (talk) 01:33, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Trump's foray
If this were to be restored without major changes, I believe the part about Trump should include "baseless conspiracy theory" or something very similar to make it absolutely clear that the allegation indeed is baseless. Attributing "even though it was ruled an accident" is not enough. Politrukki (talk) 16:06, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
 * It should be sourced and attributed to someone calling it "baseless". Calling it baseless ourselves is POV. Daniel Case (talk) 00:02, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree. It's also not entirely "baseless". It is based on the fact that Scarborough suddenly resigned from Congress at the same time an aide was mysteriously found dead in his office. Of course, this theory ignores the fact that he had already announced his resignation, and the fact that the autopsy said that she had a undiagnosed heart condition - but it's not "baseless".--Jack Upland (talk) 00:27, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
 * No, it was not at the same time. Yes, it is baseless. What is the basis? Seriously, this is another BLP violation. O3000 (talk) 01:23, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

This incident should be noted in the article (and the 'resignation' part is probably as good a place as any). Before this week, it was arguably reasonable to exclude it under BLP; but now it's been mentioned by Trump and a host of media organisations, it's arguably noteworthy enough to mention. Mentioning the death does not necessarily imply Scarborough had anything to do with it, and the article should make clear that all the people involved, and the majority of reliable sources, say it was nothing to do with him and allegations to the contrary are untrue. That seems the best way to handle it. Robofish (talk) 00:10, 27 May 2020 (UTC)


 * For the record, someone's now created a separate article on the subject, Donald Trump's Joe Scarborough murder conspiracy theory. If as some argue merely mentioning Klausutis' name here is a BLP violation, that article must be a BLP violation tenfold. Robofish (talk) 00:12, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Conspiracy theory section
I think placing the death in a separate section gives undue weight to the conspiracy theory.--Jack Upland (talk) 01:38, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
 * So, you would rather connect her death to his resignation without a wit of evidence? The solution is to remove all of it. Then there is no undue weight to one of innumerable conspiracy theories. O3000 (talk) 01:44, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Placing it in the "Resignation" section clearly shows that Scarborough announced his resignation before the death. It does not and could not imply that he resigned because of her death. Please stop the personal attacks.--Jack Upland (talk) 01:51, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
 * If it's in the resignation section, that implies it is related to his resignation. That's what section headings are for. And, that was not a PA. Find another solution if you wish. I suggested one. But, it is in no way related to his resignation and suggesting that it is is a serious BLP violation -- even more so that he announced his resignation before her death as that suggests his resignation was related to something nefarious. O3000 (talk) 02:07, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

I moved the Conspiracy theory subsection to Post-congressional politics because we cite no sources to substantiate that this theory arose during Scarborough's membership in the U.S. House of Representatives, which ended on September 5, 2001. If such WP:RS can be found, I will not object to moving the Conspiracy theory subsection back under the U.S. House of Representatives section. NedFausa (talk) 16:36, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't think the placement of this paragraph has an easy answer. The MOS:BIO states In general, present a biography in chronological order, from birth to death, except where there is good reason to do otherwise. Within a single section, events should almost always be in chronological order. The death clearly occurred before he left the House. The allegations clearly relate to his time as a Congressman and in particular the reason for his resignation. The investigation into the death was clearly considered newsworthy, and the subject of speculation, at the time: And that's using a source currently in the article. The current placement is chronologically awkward, and the text does not make clear he was a Congressman at the time and doesn't even refer to his resignation - which is absurd. I will fix those obvious omissions.--Jack Upland (talk) 22:28, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I dispute your assertion that "The investigation into the death was…the subject of speculation, at the time," based solely on the cited source. The Northwest Florida Daily News reported that on the day the body was discovered, the associate medical examiner denied finding any sign of trauma. However, the paper added that the ME later said his original denials were designed to prevent "undue speculation about the cause of death." There is no mention whatever in this story of any speculation that Congressman Scarborough was involved in her death, much less that a conspiracy theory had by then (August 7, 2001) blossomed to suggest such a thing. Please cite a different WP:RS to support your insinuation that a conspiracy theory predated Scarborough's last day (September 5, 2001) as a member of the U.S. House of Representatives. And as to chronological placement, I remind you that the subsection under discussion is named Conspiracy theory, not Death of a staffer. NedFausa (talk) 23:03, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The section could be easily renamed "Death of a staffer". It wasn't initially named "Conspiracy theory", after all. Rather circular reasoning...--Jack Upland (talk) 00:21, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Why would the death of a staffer even be DUE? If anything makes this DUE, it's the fact that some people have woven conspiracies about it. O3000 (talk) 00:25, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
 * True.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:38, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
 * On the other hand, arguably, the paragraph should be included under the "Media career" heading, because the most prominent airing of the issue has happened at present, at a time when he is a media personality, and Trump has focussed on media-related issues such as ratings in his attack. As I said, no easy answer.--Jack Upland (talk) 02:43, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I support moving the content that comprises the Conspiracy theory subsection to the Media career section, inserting it immediately before the paragraph that begins "In August 2019, Scarborough drew criticism…." In doing so, we should delete the Conspiracy theory subsection heading and the internal link to Main article: Donald Trump's Joe Scarborough murder conspiracy theory, both of which are problematic per WP:UNDUE. NedFausa (talk) 17:03, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, that would certainly be an improvement to the current arrangement. However, it would need be made clear that Trump did not originate the theory, rather was just regurgitating it.--Jack Upland (talk) 21:56, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
 * While there are sources which show that speculation and theorising about the death and Scarborough's resignation did begin before his retirement from Congress in September 2001 — — the current consensus is against including this paragraph in the "Resignation" section. Therefore — in the absence of any objection — I have got rid of the "Conspiracy theory" subsection and moved the paragraph to the "Media career" section.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:44, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Resignation speculation
Do we know if Scarborough leaving Congress "suddenly" was part of the original theory, or is that a new wrinkle added by Trump in 2020? NedFausa (talk) 22:02, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The text about Trump "adding in 2020" the resignation to the theory is completely misleading. The resignation was part of the theory from the beginning. Trump is merely echoing other people, as he usually does. Here are some sources. (Note: I am not suggesting any of this should be added to the article nor that any of this speculation is well-founded nor that these are reliable sources. I am simply answering the question.)
 * American Politics Journal said in 2001: Unbelievably, that was it. The story was simply dropped. A young female employee of one of Florida's Congressmen had died unexpectedly in the Congressman's office. There were no witnesses to her death and the cause of death was not apparent. Klausutis' boss, Joe Scarborough had recently resigned from Congress prematurely and unexpectedly, amid rumors about his marital fidelity and soon after a divorce. He had also abruptly resigned as publisher of the Independent Florida Sun, claiming that resigning from Congress and as publisher was necessary to spend more time with his sons. Such circumstances make one pause.
 * In 2005 Scarborough complained (quoted by Gawker in 2015): The article also suggested that this imaginary sex scandal forced me to leave office... I didn’t leave Congress because of her death; I announced my retirement from Congress in May 2001-she passed away several months later.
 * Salon in 2017 said: Those in the dark concerns of the media that trafficked in conspiracy theories grabbed this personal tragedy and spun it into internet gold, creating and broadcasting a narrative that eventually made its way to more mainstream outlets, including the Daily Kos (site founder Markos Moulitsas was a particularly outspoken proponent). At one point, documentarian Michael Moore registered the domain name JoeScarboroughKilledHisIntern.com. Much of the theorizing was hinged on legitimate questions about medical examiner Dr. Michael Berkland's very checkered history. As well, the fact that Scarborough retired from politics soon after Klausutis' death collected suspicion.
 * NWF Daily News said in 2017: Because of where Scarborough was in his career, combined with the foot dragging of local officials in determining a cause of death and releasing pertinent information to the public, a perfect storm was created for conspiracy theorists... in May 2001, he announced suddenly that he was stepping down to spend more time with his two boys... The story was met with some skepticism, and rumors flew that Scarborough might have been caught up in some scandal and forced to step down... The gap in time between the announcement and the actual resignation helped fuel conversation that Scarborough was having an affair with Klausutis, and that it had somehow caught up to him. Most conspiracy theories continue to espouse that Scarborough resigned after the Klausutis death, making no mention of the May announcement.
 * Tampa Bay Times in 2020 said: The story has dogged Scarborough among conspiracy-minded individuals. Markos Moulitsas, founder of the liberal website Daily Kos, was banned from MSNBC for suggesting Scarborough may have played some role in Klausutis’ death. The guts of the conspiracy theory center around Scarborough’s announcement in May 2001, two months before Klausutis’ death, that he would resign from Congress on Sept. 6, 2001, to spend more time with his two sons.
 * People in 2020 said: Though ultimately unrelated to how Lori died, together all of these incidents and Scarborough’s resignation soon after (though announced months before her death) fused to fuel a more conspiratorial view of what happened — one initially fed by some liberal commentators and, in recent years, taken up by Trump and right-wing allies.
 * I'm sure there are many, many sources.--Jack Upland (talk) 21:41, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you for nailing this down. But now that you've given us the background, what should we do with the phrase adding in 2020 that Scarborough "left Congress suddenly"? NedFausa (talk) 21:52, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Given your concerns about attributing particular allegations to particular people, what about something like this?
 * A theory emerged that Scarborough was involved in her death, connecting this with his resignation from Congress. This theory was promoted by publisher Markos Moulitsas and by filmmaker Michael Moore, who registered the domain name JoeScarboroughKilledHisIntern.com. Since 2017, as part of a war of words with Scarborough, President Donald Trump has raised this debunked theory and has called for another investigation.
 * The citations after the first sentence are just examples of sources that could be used. The Salon article is better, but we are already using it for the second sentence.--Jack Upland (talk) 22:40, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

I hope you'll refine your proposed replacement with better sources. Thanks again. NedFausa (talk) 00:49, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I appreciate the work you've put into this. The replacement you propose (beginning "A theory emerged…") is worthy of close consideration. If I may, I'd like to discuss the first two sentences. (I have no problem with the third.)
 * First, you state that his resignation was, according to the theory, connected with his involvement in her death. You cite two sources, each dated May 24, 2020. WaPo reports that soon after Klausutis's death, "rumors claimed…that it had prompted Scarborough to resign from Congress." Variety, however, does not connect his resignation with involvement in her death prior to Trump's tweet of May 23, 2020—decades after the theory emerged. So while WaPo supports your first sentence, Variety does not.
 * Second, you say the theory was promoted by Moulitsas and by Moore. For this you cite Salon, which reports that the two men helped spread the conspiracy theory. Salon also says, as you previously pointed out, "the fact that Scarborough retired from politics soon after Klausutis' death collected suspicion." But Salon does not directly attribute suspicion about his retirement to Moulitsas and Moore, leaving open the possibility it was not part of the theory that they spread. We must be wary of WP:SYNTH.
 * On the first point, you have confused two different sets of citations. I merely added links to two articles that could be used: the NWF Daily News and the Gawker. These do not correspond to footnotes 3 and 4. On the second point, we are going round in circles here. I am merely suggesting a solution to the problem. The text as it exists is clearly false and should be changed. If you are so concerned about synthesis - I don't believe any exists - say something like: "A theory emerged that Scarborough was involved in her death and that this possibly explained his resignation from Congress. Versions of this theory were promoted by publisher Markos Moulitsas and by filmmaker Michael Moore." Or actually come up with wording that makes you happy. Please don't demand that I fix problems you have caused.--Jack Upland (talk) 04:59, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Alternatively, we could stop saying "theory" because there doesn't seem to be a coherent theory, just speculation and innuendo. So we could say (based on Salon etc): "The death gave rise to speculation, as did Scarborough's unexpected resignation from Congress. Publisher Markos Moulitsas and filmmaker Michael Moore, who registered the domain name JoeScarboroughKilledHisIntern.com, promoted the idea that Scarborough was involved in the death."--Jack Upland (talk) 07:21, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your reply. I have deleted the "adding" clause from the article space. I apologize for, as you put it, causing problems. NedFausa (talk) 17:21, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I have added in a reference to the resignation as this is reported to be the "guts" of the "conspiracy theory".--Jack Upland (talk) 20:41, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Deletion of information
Consensus long ago including weigh in from Jimbo is this is not relevant to Scarboroughs bio. Not his controversy or issue. ConstantPlancks (talk) 07:01, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The consensus of long ago is not relevant now. The US President is tweeting about the issue. It's obviously relevant. There is currently a clear consensus in favour of inclusion.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:26, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Where's ur evidence for that, Plancks? You direct us to the talk page archives & this is the only thing that points towards "consensus" when searching for "Lori Klausutis". To say that it's "not his controversy or issue" is damned disingenuous because, duh, it obviously is... Happy to stand partly corrected if you could link us up to Jimmy's holy words but the fact remains that this is a cross that Scarborough is bearing, whether for good reason or not... Kingoflettuce (talk) 07:29, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Jimbo is not in charge any more anyway.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:41, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Why are editors deleting references to Scarborough's resignation from the "Conspiracy theory" subsection? It is mentioned in copious sources. Sure, change the wording, but repeatedly removing it is bizarre...--Jack Upland (talk) 00:40, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The more pertinent question is why you added content here and here about his resignation that is unsupported by the sources cited. NedFausa (talk) 00:45, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The article on the aide was deleted multiple times. It was and is a BLP vio and the widowed husband contacted WP 15 years ago just as he contacted twitter. this becomes a cytogenesis problem where a BLP violation lives on in BLPs despite the fact that neither BLP article or the non-notable decadent (or family) have anything to do with it. The accusation is false. Scarborough has nothing to do with it. Just because its mentioned during a political campaign doesn't mean we name drop it everywhere we can. The death has no bearing on Joe Scarborough. It wasn't a crime. There was nothing controversial about it. Keeping it here as if Scarborough is somehow involved in any way is called false light libel and is why we don't keep it. Just because Trump tweeted it, doesn't warrant inclusion. This section is longer than the Tara Reade section in Joe Biden and Trump tweets "Sleepy Joe" and "Hiden" a helluva lot more than this but its simply not encyclopedic. Neither is this false story. ConstantPlancks (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:30, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

"Lori Klausutis" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Lori Klausutis. The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 May 26 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.  Crazy Boy  826  16:17, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks. In any case, it certainly should not redirect to the resignation section as that implies a connection which doesn't exist. O3000 (talk) 16:26, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
 * It seemed like the obvs place to redirect to because... That was the only place she was mentioned in? Until you removed it wholesale, that is. Kingoflettuce (talk) 16:38, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Scrubbed for propaganda purposes
This article is being rewritten furiously to push propaganda. There was a section detailing early origins of the murder accusation that have been scrubbed. Now it pretends that the accusation was suddenly made up by Donald Trump today, even though Scarborough had even threatened to sue Michael Moore over the accusation in 2004. I'm not Wiki fluent enough to fix it. https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2004/6/15/33603/- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.217.69.113 (talk) 04:42, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I have re-added the information about Michael Moore. I agree that we shouldn't imply that Trump was the first one to raise this. The fact that Scarborough has had to put up with this allegation for about 20 years is significant.--Jack Upland (talk) 05:05, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The fact that Michael Moore spread this nonsense 15 years ago to few people's memory is UNDUE. The fact that the President of the United States is heavily pressing this is DUE. O3000 (talk) 00:28, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
 * That is recentism.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:41, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Post-congressional politics
I don't think this section amounts to much. Being an environmental lawyer is not "politics", nor is serving on the President's Council. I don't think the fact that Scarborough decided not to run for various political offices is noteworthy. His full-time media career was launched in 2003. I think we could just tack this interim period on to the start of his media career. It would only take a couple of sentences.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:03, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
 * There being no objections, I have now removed this section. The article now moves from his time in Congress to his media career without an artificial and confusing section in between. The "conspiracy theory" has been tucked into the "Media career" section. After all, this when the smears affected him the most. It makes no sense to try to divide his media work from politics. The two obviously overlap. And it goes against MOS:BIO to create thematic sections.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:57, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Mass deletion
An editor has mass-deleted details of the death of the intern. Without good reason. They should be restored. They are relevant and RS supported. --2604:2000:E010:1100:8963:1394:A693:B418 (talk) 17:41, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The death of an employee usually wouldn't be included at all. Details, if needed, are probably more appropriate on articles by those spreading the goofy conspiracy theories. O3000 (talk) 18:03, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
 * IP user: I did not "mass delete" anything. In a series of 12 discrete edits, I carefully revised content within a single subsection, and explained each such revision in an edit summary. You are welcome to discuss any particular change, but please do not grossly misrepresent what I've done. NedFausa (talk) 18:06, 28 May 2020 (UTC)


 * This diff reflects the mass deletion. There is no reasonable explanation given. You delete among other things that her autopsy revealed that she had specifically a "heart-valve irregularity, floppy mitral valve disease, that caused a cardiac arrhythmia that in turn halted her heart, stopped her breathing, and caused the 28-year-old to lose consciousness, fall, and hit her head on the edge of a desk." The editor also deleted the diff for the medical examiner's conclusion that her death was accidental. The editor also deleted the statement and ref to the fact that her friend said she had mentioned having mild seizures during her youth. All of these are material. All of this was RS supported. All of this is of interest - there is a reason that 100,000 readers accessed this article yesterday, and the effort to delete this information which is along the lines of what they are seeking is troubling. Despite the deleting editor's objections, without any reasonable basis, to their inclusion. 2604:2000:E010:1100:8963:1394:A693:B418 (talk) 19:21, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
 * It says: An autopsy by an Okaloosa County associate medical examiner determined that an undiagnosed heart-valve irregularity had caused the 28-year-old to lose consciousness, fall, and hit her head on the edge of a desk the day before. He concluded that her death was accidental. I don't see a problem. The exact heart condition and mechanics of the heart failure are not necessary details. This article is not about her. O3000 (talk) 19:29, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
 * IP user: This is not a medical journal. We don't need to include the deceased's "floppy mitral valve disease, that caused a cardiac arrhythmia that in turn halted her heart, stopped her breathing." And as I explained in my edit summary, a friend's recollection of mild seizures during youth is an "unnecessary detail – non-medical anecdotal reminiscence." That is—like all of my other changes—subject to debate here at the talk page; but please stop misrepresenting my painstaking, singular edits as "mass deletion." NedFausa (talk) 19:40, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
 * All we need about this incident is a short paragraph. I think it is sufficient to say she had an "undiagnosed heart condition". The details don't mean much to the vast majority of readers. My understanding is that autopsies are somewhat speculative anyway. I think the finding that the death was "accidental" and of "natural causes" is already covered by the description of how she died. It is not our job to prove Trump wrong or write the definitive account of the incident. All we need to do is provide a succinct, factual background to explain this conspiracy theory about Scarborough that Trump and others are pushing. Giving this more than a short paragraph gives it undue weight. The death itself is not significant in Scarborough's life. It only became significant because of the conspiracy theory and we shouldn't give this theory too much air.--Jack Upland (talk) 20:26, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I think the small amount of detail included now is good. It isn't too detailed, but ties the heart condition to the death. Merely saying she had a heart condition doesn't do that. The word accidental doesn't do it either as accidental deaths can be homicides. O3000 (talk) 22:05, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I meant "heart condition" instead of "heart-valve irregularity" in the current sentence, of course. Of course we need to tie the heart condition to the death!!!!!!!!!--Jack Upland (talk) 22:49, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, of course, of course, it should be brief. It is. Nine characters are OK in my mind. Massive numbers of people have benign irregular heart waves. O3000 (talk) 00:13, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Which nine characters?--Jack Upland (talk) 05:25, 29 May 2020 (UTC)


 * The most important part of the mass of text (and RS refs) that was deleted, over a series of edits, was all supported by RSs.

It said that she had, after a heart valve irregularity, a "floppy mitral valve disease, that caused a cardiac arrhythmia that in turn halted her heart .."

That is indeed important. The autopsy said that she had a particular heart valve irregularity. Heart valve irregularities, come in various types. You probably know this. They have different effects, depending on the type. Not all cause sudden death. Some do. Some don't. Some make the heart flutter. (As one editor said above - Massive numbers of people have benign irregular heart waves.) And that is all. Some have a higher likelihood of killing people. Especially people in a certain age group. And gender. This is highly material. It's not like describing what color eye shadow she was wearing. I think if you are truly objective, you see this.

Why would you want to delete this - and hide it from readers? It's key to understanding. It's very short. 15 words. Ridiculous that some are even arguing about this. It is RS supported. 2604:2000:E010:1100:790F:3F6B:5402:E8C1 (talk) 06:24, 29 May 2020 (UTC)


 * We are hiding nothing. We are just summarising. Her heart condition is important in explaining her death. Her head injury is also important. The autopsy discussed this too. And it was apparently the head injury that killed her. We also don't mention the checkered history of the medical examiner. We don't mention the rumours that Scarborough was having an affair with her. We don't mention that he said he'd hardly met her. We don't mention she was a marathon runner. We don't mention that she had acne. All these things could be mentioned at Donald Trump's Joe Scarborough murder conspiracy theory, but note that article is being considered for deletion. But they can't be mentioned here. 15 words is too many. It's WP:UNDUE.--Jack Upland (talk) 23:00, 29 May 2020 (UTC)