Talk:Joel Chandler Harris

Zomo
"The rabbit in Africa was called Zomo." What's the point of this sentence? It just doesn't seem to fit in with the rest of the article about the Uncle Remus stories. Are you trying to tie Uncle Remus & Brer Rabbit to African legends? if so, you should probably be more clear about that in the article. Billy Shears 14:23, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Bio
Some actual information about the guy would be nice, am i rite? User.lain 03:14, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Mencken
I don't believe that the H.L. Mencken paragraph is relevant. While it touches on some important topics regarding Harris, it says more about Mencken than it does Harris. I'll delete this one once I become more familiar with editing pages and, if I can find it, replace this quote with another by Mencken that's more direct. BardSeed 19:31, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

NA lore?
The claim that Rabbit was learned from Native Americans is false. There may have been some syncretism, but the Trickster God, Manabozho (Hare) and his stories are well documented. http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/african-mythology.php?deity=HARE --Salsassin (talk) 16:50, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Expansive
"I've significantly expanded this page over the past few days and would appreciate any help with adding sources or information, or subtracting clutter and bias. Harris' journalism is slightly less ambiguous than his work with Uncle Remus, but it hasn't been explored in much detail by scholars.  There's a new peer-reviewed journal article on the subject coming out this fall, however, and I'll be sure to include it once I get a copy." BardSeed (talk) 21:26, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Nothing like it?
"Before Uncle Remus, there was nothing else like the stories in Western literature for children or adults". Is this really what John Goldthwaite says? If so, it's a bizarre statement. Aesop's Fables, dating from around 620 BC, had an enormous influence on Western literature for children and adults, especially in the 17th century French versions by Jean de la Fontaine. European folk tales had many animal characters. There was a series of medieval tales about Reynard the Fox. As an educated man, Harris was surely aware of at least some of these. His achievement was to present the African-American folklore as told by Uncle Remus in the same way as the folk-tales from classical Greece were presented under the name of Aesop - who was also a slave.Zephirine (talk) 14:43, 2 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Good points! Harris was very familiar with Reynard the Fox and, of course, Aesop.  I think the point Goldthwaite is talking specifically about the "newness" surrounding animals as fully fleshed, humanized personages (instead of, for instance, the very basic animals in Aesop's fables), plus the use of dialect which was foreign to many readers, plus the episodic, continuous nature of the tales. Here's what it says on page 256: "Yet before the publication of Uncle Remus in 1881 there was nothing like, and for fifty years after there was little else of note in make-believe but the the Uncle Remus order of serial adventures in the countryside.  However else we regard the book, it is irrefutably the central event in the making of modern children's story." BardSeed (talk) 21:42, 6 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Hm, I still think Goldthwaite is exaggerating somewhat - there are animal characters in Alice in Wonderland (1865) which are certainly individual humanized characters although often eccentric. I feel that the statement "Harris' influence on children's writers like Kipling, Milne, Potter, and Burgess can hardly be overstated." shouldn't be made unless there are references to show that those writers knew and admired Harris's work.  It would certainly be interesting to know if Kipling was encouraged to use dialect in stories and poems because of Uncle Remus, it seems likely.  On the other hand Potter seems more likely to have been influenced by la Fontaine, and most of her stories are self-contained like Aesop's Fables, there's very little serial content or use of dialect.  Also, Goldthwaite's statement that "for fifty years after there was little else of note" would take us up to 1931 and discard a whole range of classic children's books as of little note!  Perhaps he's only referring to animal stories?Zephirine (talk) 22:43, 7 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Word. I'll rework this to (a) remove the more hyperbolic stuff and (b) add in more citations to specific instances from different sources.  There is plenty of evidence of Harris' influence on Kipling, for example, who would memorize the stories and then reenact them with his classmates.  While I'm at it, I'll update the journalism section with information from new scholarship that came out in late 2009.  Thanks for helping out, I really appreciate your input!  BardSeed (talk) 17:33, 8 January 2010 (UTC)


 * You're welcome! I've now discovered that Beatrix Potter did some illustrations (unpublished) for Uncle Remus stories early in her career (as well as for Alice in Wonderland), so she did know and like Harris's work. (ref. Beatrix Potter, Artist and Illustrator by Anne Stevenson Hobbs, pub Frederick Warne 2005).  But the same book shows she was influenced by German folk tales too. 86.149.70.122 (talk) 00:16, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Tsk, forgot to log in, last contribution was from me :)Zephirine (talk) 00:18, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Perceived racism
Here's something interesting. As an elementary school student in metro Atlanta during the 1970s my classes made at least two trips (in different grades) to Atlanta to visit Harris's home and learn about his writing. Those same schools now ban his books because of the racial content! User:Guest —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.77.145.194 (talk) 02:00, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

DOB
Article text says born in 1845, side panel says 1848. I assume the former is correct, since it appears elsewhere in the article and supports the "aged 62" note. Scott Noyes (talk) 17:11, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Assessment
As requested at WikiProject Children's literature, I have assessed this article and improved its rating to B class. For suggestions on improving this article further, please use the Good Article criteria. strdst_grl  (call me Stardust) 17:33, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Legitimacy of publishing someone else's stories
While some criticize Harris for "stealing" the Brer Rabbit stories, I wonder if everyone is of the same opinion. If he had said they were his own - rather than emphatically denying his own authorship, we might say so. But Frank Stephenson of Florida State University wrote:
 * "Harris fell out of favor with black critics and scholars in the '60s, but in recent years we've seen him return to favor among some of these same critics," says Bickley. "They're beginning to realize that Harris saved an important legacy, no matter what one might think about the man who saved it." --Uncle Ed (talk) 15:07, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Harris and racism
Views differ on how racist Harris was, and also on how racist his stories and Disney's derivative Song of the South are. Harris has been condemned for being pro-slavery, although as an outcast he "identified" with slaves. He portrayed the plantation system in a positive light, but his Uncle Remus stories often showed whites as reprehensible in character - the (rightful?) target of revenge from Brer Rabbit.


 * "Remus, of course, identifies with the old plantation system, no doubt about that," says Hugh Keenan. "But he also works against it at the same time. He's presenting a counter view of society and religion in those tales. The fact is, he was very subversive."

I don't want to call him a non-racist or an anti-racist, but I'd like some help from other contributors to give our readers a balanced, neutral view. --Uncle Ed (talk) 15:31, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

How can his age at death be 62, if his dates ...
... were December 9, 1848 - July 3, 1908? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.242.64.130 (talk) 16:23, 27 August 2012 (UTC)


 * There's a comment about his marriage that he was 27 at the time but claiming to be 24. Apparently there are discrepancies about the year he was born. This needs to be clarified, but I don't have the knowledge or the references to do it. Paleolith (talk) 20:17, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Does not compute
In the subsection of the Life section titled Turnwold Plantation: 1862–1866, this is the first sentence:

"Harris quit school to work. In March 1862, Joseph Addison Turner, owner of Turnwold Plantation nine miles east of Eatonton, hired the 16-year-old to work as a printer's devil for his newspaper The Countryman."

But the article lists Harris's birth year as 1848, so there is no way he could be 16 years old in 1862.

I hope someone familiar with Harris's biography can please fix this.Daqu (talk) 00:16, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

——————

I noticed the same thing. If Harris was born in December of 1948, he would have been 13 in March of 1862. Soulfulpsy (talk) 19:35, 6 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Yep, I noticed it too. I don't know the answer, but I added a "clarify" template to mark the discrepancy. There's a comment about his marriage that he was 27 at the time but claiming to be 24. Apparently there are discrepancies about the year he was born. This needs to be clarified, but I don't have the knowledge or the references to do it. Paleolith (talk) 19:17, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Geographical discrepancy
The bio section says of his later years "he remained close to home, refusing to travel to accept honorary degrees from the University of Pennsylvania and Emory College". I've inserted a "clarify" template. UP was about 800 miles away and makes sense in the context. Emory was 37 miles away (it was in Oxford GA at the time, moving to its current Atlanta location later). Refusing an honorary degree from Emory thus does not follow from his preference to "remain close to home". There's surely something of interest behind this, but I don't know what. Paleolith (talk) 20:15, 20 June 2017 (UTC)