Talk:Joel Fuhrman

Diet and Health Criticisms
The section on Diet and Health is mostly criticisms. This section should be an explaination of Joel Fuhrman's writings on diet and health. When I moved the criticisms to a "Criticisms" section, the move was undone. I don't see why this should be the case. There should be a separate section of the article that deals with criticisms. Jessehogan (talk)
 * No. See WP:CRITS. --Hob Gadling (talk) 13:24, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

This section is, indeed, a collection of criticisms. I suspect that any number of positive references could be added from equally reliable sources and would like to see those who follow Dr. Fuhrman closely suggest some of those for inclusion (or, alternatively, I would like to see the criticisms in this section moved to a separate section as has been suggested. I followed Dr. Fuhrman closely for about 5 years (roughly from 2008 to 2013) and based on my knowledge of his work at that time, this article seems full of false and misleading information.  Here are some examples:

1) the article states that Dr. Fuhrman's diet does not allow dairy products or animal products. This was certainly not the case when I was following him.  Rather the emphasis was placed on salads and raw vegetables, cooked vegetables, especially beans and greens, and nuts and seeds (for good fats).  One of his slogans was, "the salad is the main dish" and he suggested that meat be served as a side-dish, if at all, while at the same time acknowledging that some people could not thrive on a meat-free diet.  His nutritarian food pyramid (still on his website) includes room for some meat and dairy at the top:

https://www.drfuhrman.com/blog/90/dr-fuhrmans-nutritarian-pyramid

2) The article quotes David Gorski's comment that "Fuhrman has promoted a vitalistic view of food and the pseudoscientific idea of detoxification." What evidence does he give for this?  In fact, the essence of Fuhrman's theory as I understood it 10 years ago, is that there are 1000s of phytonutrients-- many that have not been classified --and when we depend on the standard American diet, along with commercial vitamins and supplements, we end up over-fed and undernourished.  In addition, even if foods high in refined carbohydrates, extracted oils, and concentrated sweeteners (and salt) aren't always bad for us, in and of themselves, they tend to push healthier foods off our plates (and make a healthful diet seem restrictive).

3) The article quotes Mark Adams' comment that Fuhrman "preaches something closer to fruitarianism". Nothing could be farther from the truth (just have another look at his "nutritarian food pyramid").

--Hazratio (talk) 19:09, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Please provide independent sources rather than risk WP:OR and WP:PROMO. --Hipal (talk) 20:03, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * While I used to promote Dr. Fuhrman's diet (about 10 years ago), I am no longer associated with him in any way whatsoever. But I know enough about him to recognize that many of the criticisms in this Wikipedia entry are false or misleading.  While I understand that sources for new material to be added should not be original research or promotional, it seems wrong to include sources (at least without qualification) when they are directly contradicted by Dr. Fuhrman's books and website. Is it appropriate to quote Dr. Fuhrman on Dr. Fuhrman?
 * With regard to the prohibition of meat and dairy products in (my) item 1, above, not only is that proven false by his food pyramid, this article also demonstrates that this claim is false: Chicken-Seasoned Quinoa and Artichokes.
 * With regard to David Gorski's comment referred to in (my) item 2, above, one need only compare the Wikipedia article on Vitalism with Dr. Fuhrman's very conservative claims in this article: Five things you need to know about cooked vs. raw vegetables.
 * And, finally-- to repeat --the Mark Adams' claim that Furhman's diet is close to Fruitarianism is also proven false by his food pyramid.
 * As such, why should those claims be included in the article? Or if there is really a consensus that they should, why should they not be flagged as being contradicted by Dr. Fuhrman's books and website?   Hazratio (talk) 21:46, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Those aren't independent sources. --Hipal (talk) 21:56, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * We do not need to remove reliable sources, but I agree that Fuhrman is not actually promoting a strict vegetarian or vegan diet as he allows a small amount of chicken, dairy products and fish on his diet after six weeks. I have made that clear on the article. Psychologist Guy (talk) 00:51, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * An error I corrected on the article was Celebrity Doctors. Encyclopedia of Diet Fads: Understanding Science and Society because the correct page number is 41, not pages 127-128. The source does not mention "micronutrient-rich diet" so that was original research and has been removed. Psychologist Guy (talk) 01:11, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Introduction
WebMD and other sources introduce Dr. Fuhrman as a "board-certified family physician", but this was replaced with "celebrity doctor". The reason for this was because I was "whitewashing - de-emphasizine", even though my version was simply a statement of fact and consistent with authoritative sources. "celebrity doctor", on the other hand, seems to be well-poisoning to me. Jessehogan (talk)


 * WebMD is not a reliable source. We have a reliable source for Joel Fuhrman being a celebrity doctor - Bijlefeld, M; Zoumbaris, SK (2014). Celebrity Doctors. Encyclopedia of Diet Fads: Understanding Science and Society (2nd ed.). ABC-CLIO. p. 41. Psychologist Guy (talk) 18:46, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Is he a celebrity doctor? Is he a board-certified family physician? These questions must have clear "yes-or-no' answers. That should be all that matters for the purposes of the article. For example, the text could read: "Joel Fuhrman (born December 2, 1953) is an American board-certified family physician and celebrity doctor ..."

The article as a whole is a blatant violation of NPOV. 76.130.95.131 (talk) 17:32, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

The opening paragraph characterizes his diet as "restrictive". While it may seem that way at first glance, most people who truly understand and give it a fair try, do not feel at all deprived in terms of the variety and enjoyment of their food. They may well find it restrictive in social settings where most people are eating the standard American diet, but that is a separate question and deserves a more nuanced answer. I suggest that this characterization be moved to a different section (with other criticisms). Why are Men's Journal, Science-Based Medicine, and The Denver Post thought to be more reliable than WebMD -- who decided that? --Hazratio (talk) 19:09, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The WP:LEDE summarizes and introduces the article. As far as I can tell, all the arguments above are WP:OR, though identifying specific references might help resolve that problem. --Hipal (talk) 20:09, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Middle Name
Reportedly, Dr. Fuhrman's middle name is Harvey.

Birthdate Discrepancy
Regarding Dr. Fuhrman’s birthday, it seems that there is a discrepancy between two sources. While Wikipedia lists his birthday as December 2, 1953, AncientFaces lists it as December 3, 1953.