Talk:Johan van Oldenbarnevelt

Biography assessment rating comment
WikiProject Biography Assessment

On the heavy side of "Start"-- needs citations to go to a "B"

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 05:38, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

POV-check
This article was tagged back in May with a pov-check tag, but I see no comments about it.

From a cursory scan, I suspect that the issue may simply be that parts of the text come from Encyclopedia Brittannica 1911 edition. Paul Koning 21:39, 15 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Hearing no support for it, I removed it. Paul Koning 20:42, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Trial section edit
I have to agree about the POV complaint that seems to have been made: the article clearly takes the point of view of the people (like me) that are still enraged about this judicial murder after 390 years :-) However, I think it could be toned down a little. The fact that the accused were brought before an ad hoc tribunal in itself does not signify an unfair trial. This was just a solution for the problem that the Generaliteit did not have a judicial branch. There are plenty examples in the Dutch national archives of similar ad hoc judicial commissions, often in trivial cases. Hence my edit.

I have added the anecdote about the notation (by Anthonie Duyck?) in the register of the States of Holland, apparently praising Oldenbarnevelt. After that praise there follows the cryptic sentence Die staet siet toe dat hij niet en valle. I have always taken this to mean a defiant statement that the State (of Holland) would not allow the reputation of Oldenbarnevelt to suffer:-). However, Motley's awkward literal translation (which I have not copied because it makes no sense) makes me think that it probably is a proverb. Literally, it says: "He who stands (better) makes sure that he does not fall". I now think this is a different version of "Hoogmoed komt voor de val" (or Pride comes before the fall), which would make sense in the context, especially as the notation is written by one of Oldenbarnevelts opponents. But I may be wrong, of course.--Ereunetes (talk) 20:02, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
 * What was he convicted of? Rmhermen (talk) 00:34, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * subverting the country's religion. SAE (talk) 01:07, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I see in the Section 'Arrest and Arrest' this statement: "They added the cryptic sentence Die staet siet toe dat hij niet en valle which probably should be understood as a free Dutch translation of the old dictum sic transit gloria mundi, or possibly translated as "pride comes before the fall" (cf. Proverbs 16:17-18)."

"Die staet siet toe dat hij niet en valle" doesn't come from Proverbs 16 nor from the Latin Dictum. It actually comes from 1 Corinthians 10: 12: (Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. [KJV]) The Bible version used by Dutch Protestants at that time was the Deux Aes Bible, see this facsimile: Deux Aes Bible (in early modern Dutch) where you can see that passage almost literally (right column, middle). N.B. I don't like to edit Wikipedia pages, so I just leave it with this remark. Someone please take it up, and change it. OJB--128.243.253.107 (talk) 16:59, 2 August 2010 (UTC)