Talk:Johann Dzierzon/Archive 1

Insistence on Polish
Dear 1)	Dzierżon first name is Jan. This name was given him at baptism and should be respected. 2)	His family name is Dzieżon the second z is with dot on top. This is how he signed himself in Polish language. 3)	He left clear statement saying: “As my name says I am Polish..” so he is Polish not only by origin but from choice. 4)	He resigned from presbytery in 1868 but it does not mean he become free of priesthood orders. 5)	His family was Polish not ethnic Polish. Both father and mother did not speak German at all. 6)	You have no evidence about joining Old Catholic Church by Dzierżon. You supposition are on the base of wrong Soltisec statement. You do not have any other documents as registration from the Old Catholic Church etc.

I revert you changes, also some that could be matter of comas. It is just to much to repair all you ravage step by step. Please take for consideration the 6 major points above and start discussion and proving. Also be sure I will not be convinced by some Nazi or neo Nazi publications dated decades ago. In Polish and English newest publication discuses facts and documents. I do not know any recent SCENTIFIC publications in German which would support you statements. If you have some let me know and we will look for mediator. Andrew Serafin 20:06, 29 November 2006 (UTC) --- Hello Andrew/Serafin

First off, I agree fully with you that names should be respected. You do not show an actual document, but I go along with Jan. Wikipedia does not respect names though. German names are constantly translated. Only Polish names are wide-spred- despite wikipedia policy against this. The German Wikipedia article and the Silesian 2006 newspaper show the Old Catholic. To your point about Polish or ethnic Polish. He was born in Silesia, Prussia and died in Silesia, Germany. There was no Poland in his lifetime. There was a Polish Russia, be he did not live there. If you think you want to ravage the article again and remove all info, I will not make any further corrections on it. I inserted the 2006 article from Silesia on him.

I added Family website with photo of Johann Dzierzon's grave. Labbas 29 Nov 2006 ---

Record of Johann Dzierzons birth filmed by LDS Mormons
For his name look here... --80.133.9.237 09:19, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

---


 * type in Dzierzon, search, for a number of Dzierzons in Germany, etc result several 100's Germany, 5 Poland

---

Kirchenbuch (church book) entries of Lowkowitz, Kreis Kreuzburg
At the Mormon LDS Fimily History Centers FHS one can order and look at the filmed records of the original Kirchenbuch (church book) entries of Taufen, Heiraten, Tote, Birth, Marriage, Death) of inhabitants. The church book for Lowkowitz, Silesia, Germany was filmed and is available at the LDS from 1765 - 1948, when Communist Soviet Union and Poland conquered and administered eastern Germany.

Labbas 4 December 2006

Good you agree with Jan since in English would be John but not Johann :) Regarding the Old Catholic issue, I sent a request to the author to fix his mistake. It is no matter that Poland did not existed on the map (thanks the Prussian aggressions anyway). Are you suggesting that a country seize other and can additionally arrogantly claim achievements of grabbed population as its own culture? I will ask you something if you country would be sized by other one would you accept the occupants statements you are no German? Thanks for you good attitude you will not destroy the article content. I will continue my effort to provide true information about Dr Jan Dzierzon with my best knowledge. Best regards, Andrew Serafin 05:43, 1 December 2006 (UTC) -- Hello Andrew /Serafin someone # 131. had removed a number of facts, which I had gathered in the meanwhile.

It has become clear, that Dzierzon was born in Silesia in the Kingdom of Prussia, and he died in the same place , when it was Germany. His grave stone shows Dr. Johann Dzierzon, the entry of his birth (actual filmed Kirchenbuecher (church books), shows Johann Dzierzon, father Simon, mother Maria. Hundreds of other Dzierzon with German first names are listed in the church book entries at the LDS, Utah. There are less than a handfull entries of Dzierzon claimed to have been born in Poland. There is one entry for Jan Dzierzon, claimed to have been born in Poland.

Sorry, but the last king of Poland resigned and left and there was no Poland. Besides that, Johann Dzierzon did never live in the part, that was Poland, but he lived in Silesia, Prussia, Germany. It might well have been that at same previous time some of his ancestors might have been Polish, that was or is standard for many Germans, because a thousand years ago, when the German emperors gave Land in Lien (Land on Loan) to Mieszko I, by making him the first duke of the Polans there was never a line that said Poles are not allowed to live in Germany or vice versa, not until the 20th century anyway, when allied super powers for the first time in a thousand years came up with those dividing lines and took land away from people and 'gave' it to others ('Treaty' of Versailles) (Potsdam Agreement).

Until you can post here actual documents (copies) showing otherwise, he was born and he died Johann Dzierzon, a Silesian, Prussian, German with perhaps Polish ancestors. Labbas, 1 December 2006 --- I possibly mentioned to you that the grave stone was put there by Austrian Beekeeping Society (it is free translation of the name). The German was the official language of that time and was preferred by the founders. Originally for first year there was simple wooden cross and plate in Polish language (Brożek 1978). The grave stone is not prove that his Christian name was Johann. Kingdom of Prussia existed from 1701 up to 1918, thus Dzierzon was born and died (1906) in Prussia. Again, he was born in Prussia but he was Polish, is it impossible? It is one thing to be citizen of a country (even fully accepting citizen duties and the country boarders) and be a Polish or German nationality. Why A. Einstein is not call German? (see English and German Wiki). The Poland continued its existence in hearts of Poles for centuries – prove the Silesian plebiscite in 1918. Actually I feel offended by a German who recall nonexistence of my country as a prove to his doubtful hypothesis. I repeat nonexistence of Poland ON MAPS was a result of Prussian aggression, as one of main things.

Silesia was part of Polish Kingdom at least from X century and it is very possible Dzierzon was the descent of the native Slavic population in Silesia. Name of his great-grandfather Jerzy (1717-1800) appears in the oldest Polish chronicles of Lowkowitz (W. Kocowicz 1987). His father and mother did not spoke a word in German it is known since in courts cases a translator was employed (W. Kocowicz 1987). Also his nephew Franciszek confirmed that (L. Brożek 1978, W. Kocowicz 1987 and others). Thus not his ancestors but most closely his parents were Polish.

It is very nationalistic and unfunded claim that German emperors give land to Mieszko I, nobody make him duke. You do not have prove he pledged to German emperors, do you? In addition, Bolesław I Chrobry was not vassal but considered as sovereign and friend of emperor in 1000. For the Potsdam and Versailles was a god reason, was it not? I feel much more assured with such separation that there will be no more wars, conflicts or just simple argues. Regarding you request for posting documents: 1)	I agree he was born in Kingdom of Prussia (it is secondary – non important fact) 2)	I give you two publication in English: W. Kocowicz 1987 and W. Chmielewski 2006 seems to me you ignored it. Also I provided three possition in Polish. I suppose if you want dissuse Jan Dzierżon history you should study the positions also – as I study publications in German. It is obvious for me that to talk about subject you should study the oposite views also. If you do not know Polish you should leave the discussion to some German who knows it. I will give you a name of sombody like that. He disscussed with me on German and Polish Wiki, he knows my arguments. 3)	There is no doubts about his parents origin so you “perhaps” shows absolute lack of knowledge. 4)	Jan Dzierzon said: “As my name says I am Polish…” he considered himself as Pole. Call for this confiramtion. 5)	Also there at the link: if you would make a minimum effort the “Urodzony w polskiej rodzinie…” means “Born in Polish Family…” 6)	Because of this family staff his given name was Jan.

I ask you to enter the German new links in order after those which were first - nobody removed this new links they were put in different order.

Lowkowitz, Landkreis Kreuzburg O.S. (from 1936-1945 called Bienendorf after him) and after 1945 Łowkowice, where he died on 26 October 1906, at the age of 95. It has no sense. Rychbach was renamed after his name. Łowkowice was renamed Bienendorf in years 1936-1945. In 1945 returned to the original name. You removed more important subject.

He discovered the parthenogenesis in 1835 and publicized 10 years later. Just he wanted to be sure. OK?

That was 1838 when he modernized Christa’s hive to some level. This was not movable-frame but movable comb hive. Movable frame was devised in 1852 by Berlepsch on base of Dzierzon discoveries and directions.

There is the link to his Ausführliche Biografie let me know where is the Old Catholic story. I could not find in the past or present search.

He reported that most of his publications were done at Beck-Verlag in Nördlingen is little interest I think. Best, Anderew Serafin 03:37, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Polish?
Isnt it somewhat strange, to call someone Polish when 1) all his works mentioned in this article where written in German, 2) he was born in Germany, lived in Germany and died in Germany, 3) he went to school and studied in Breslau (which was a German city than) where of course he had speak and write German, 4) his grave stone reads Johann, which is a German name (and not Jan), 5) his own biography was written in German description of his live by him self 6) his relatives now live in Germany (like here gand-grand-niece Ursula Nordhorn)? There is still no proove for the constant claim by Mr Anderew that he called himself Polish. Might we see some Polish patriotism at work here? --Adbo2009 01:08, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

According to Kluczbork city site Dzierżon's parents were Polish. It means probably that they talked Polish/Silesian at home. I don't know what was the opinion of Dzierżon's about himself, I would rather believed he was German. However points 1 to 6 don't prove he was German. The same points can be used to describe many Lithuanians/Ukerainians who learned Polish and their relatives now live in Poland. Many points are true for allegedly pure Lithuanian Laurynas Gucevičius. Was Joseph Conrad English? It's not obvious. Xx236 16:17, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Right, not obvious. As my grandfather came from the village Chudowa, close to Kluczbork, most of the people there were quite well integrated in German society, although they had Polish names and spoke both languages (more or less). But that does not prove a thing about Dzierzon himself. I was just surprised he was definetely Polish. Difficult to describe. --Adbo2009 12:56, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The introduction
I mentioned him as a Prussian-German in the lead as per Manual of Style (biographies):
 * Nationality (In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable. Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability.).

I listed both his Polish and German name and mentioned that he published in both languages (as mentioned at de:Johann Dzierzon). Olessi 17:59, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Article title
Putting aside the argument over whether he was Polish or German, this article should be at a title that is English (dubious for this individual) or is most recognizable.

From Google Books:
 * 1) Johann Dzierzon
 * 2) *Bees In America: How the Honey Bee Shaped a Nation by Tammy Horn
 * 3) *Bee by Claire Preston
 * 4) *Bramble-Bees and Others by Jean-Henri Fabre
 * 5) *Science, History and Social Activism: A Tribute to Everett Mendelsohn by Garland E Allen  (also uses Johannes Dzierzon)
 * 6) *Psyche: Journal of Entomology and A Century of Mendelism in Human Genetics also use " Johann Dzierzon", although their contents have been removed from Google Books.
 * 7) Jan Dzierzon
 * 8) *Ohio History by the Ohio Historical Society
 * 9) *Placenames of the World by Adrian Room
 * 10) John Dzierzon
 * 11) *The ABC And Xyz of Bee Culture by A. I. Root & E. R. Root
 * 12) *The Queen Must Die: And Other Affairs of Bees and Men by William Longgood
 * 13) Johannes Dzierzon
 * 14) *Robbing the Bees: A Biography of Honey by Holley Bishop
 * 15) *Science, History and Social Activism: A Tribute to Everett Mendelsohn by Garland E Allen (also uses Johann Dzierzon)
 * 16) *American Philosophical Society Proceedings
 * 17) *The Dark European Honey Bee by Friedrich Ruttner, Eric Milner, John E Dews

From regular Google with English language searches (disregarding forks):
 * 1) Johann Dzierzon
 * 2) *ScienceDaily.com "Honeybee Gene Find Ends 150-year Search"
 * 3) *Milestones and Rates of Growth in the Development of Biology by Bentley Glass (JSTOR)
 * 4) *Gregor Mendel & His Precursors by Conway Zickle (JSTOR)
 * 5) *The Handbook of Texas Online, based on the work of W. Geiser
 * 6) *NewScientist.com - "Honeybee sex mystery solved at last"
 * 7) *Journal of Heredity Online - "Some Oddities in the Delayed Discovery of Mendelism" by Conway Zirkle log-in required
 * 8) *The Emergence of Hymenopteran Genetics by Robert E. Page, Jr., Jürgen Gadau, and Martin Beye
 * 9) *BioEssays - "The dice of fate: the csd gene and how its allelic composition regulates sexual development in the honey bee, Apis mellifera" by Martin Beye
 * 10) *Australian EJournal of Theology - "Historical Participation of Christian Church Ministers to the Development of Science: An Ecumenical Survey" by François Barriquand
 * 11) *"Cultivating a ‘slavic modern’: Yugoslav beekeeping, schooling and travel in the 1920s and 1930s" by Noah W. Sobe
 * 12) Jan Dzierzon
 * 13) *"Apiculture and Culture- Books on Bees and Beekeeping" (exhibit)
 * 14) *Darwin Correspondence Project "Letter number 2260"
 * 15) *Core Historical Literature of Agriculture (library listing as "Jan")
 * 16) *IBRA "International Apicultural Scientific Conference on the Centenary of Jan Dzierzon's Death"
 * 17) *Ohio History "Volume 57"
 * 18) *Beedata.com "Apis-UK Issue No.34 April 2005"
 * 19) *First European Conference of Apidology - "Pollination and the pollinator imperative"
 * 20) *Kluczbork city history
 * 21) *National Museum of Agriculture in Szreniawa
 * 22) John Dzierzon
 * 23) *Bee Tidings (University of Nebraska-Lincoln)
 * 24) *Controlled Mating in Honeybees by Lloyd R. Watson (JSTOR)
 * 25) *Nebraska Sustainable Agriculture Society - "Beekeeping Benefits Include Pleasure, Profit"
 * 26) Johannes Dzierzon
 * 27) *"Life Before Model Systems: General Zoology at August Weismann's Institute" by Frederick Churchill
 * 28) *History of Biology: Cuvier, Schwann and Schleiden
 * 29) *"Spermatogenesis of a Haploid Parthenogenetic Hymenopteran, Spilocryptus extrematus (Cresson)" by Carl H. Koonz
 * 30) *A Review of Parthenogenesis by Everett F. Phillips (JSTOR)
 * 31) *Brazilian Journal of Genetics "Sex determination in honey bees (Apinae and Meliponinae) and its consequences" by Warwick Estevam Kerr
 * 32) *"Arrhenotokous / Thelytokous Reproduction" Fred Legner
 * 33) * 3rd European Congress on Social Insects - "Portraits and puzzles in the history of insect sociobiology" by Christopher K. Starr

While there does not seem to be an overwhelming usage of one name over another, "Johann(es)" seems to be used a little more often in English texts. Olessi 00:04, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Jan Dzierzon
It is offensive to equalize citizenship with nationality. The nationality has nothing to do with citizenship until the interested individual freely integrate with second nation. It is not case of Jan Dzierzon. He considered himself Polish. It is offensive to Polish people to seize achievements of one of us. I ask many people, many time, to give me recent example of serious work in German language (that means German historians, museum) which claim Jan Dzierzon was German. I mean recent since on German Wiki cites Nazi propagandist Karl Fleischer. In the case of Polish biographers, they prove he was not willing to integrate and he considered himself Polish. I already mentioned in previous part of the discussion on En Wiki where you can search for Polish sources. Andrew 06Dec06 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 131.104.218.46 (talk) 02:46, 7 December 2006 (UTC).


 * I mention again the manual of style- Dzierzon was a citizen of Prussia (and later Germany), and the manual of style specifically mentions including citizenship (and places a lesser emphasis on ethnicity). A proper phrasing would be "... was a Prussian-German apiarist of Polish ethnicity. He was famous for ..." Olessi 04:22, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Name Jan
This is since for decades the nationality of Jan Dzierżon had been provided in wrong way. However it can not be continued. The erros have to be fix up for the true. No aceptation for twists of the name. Andrew 06Dec06 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 131.104.218.46 (talk) 02:54, 7 December 2006 (UTC).


 * Keep in mind that there are differences in English between nationality and ethnicity. As an English-speaking American editing on the English Wikipedia, I am interested in how this individual is primarily known in English. Naming conventions (people) explains that the ideal title is "the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things". Hence, my investigation through Google to find out how he is most commonly known in English.


 * I did not pay attention to the publication dates of the material, so some of them may indeed be outdated. Based on the evidence at my disposal, it seems that he traditionally has been known by Germanic names he published under, which is why I suggested the change. The lack of widespread sources mentioning Dzierzon means that there is not a standard designation for him, however, and I am certainly not insisting on a page move. If you can provide more recent English works attesting to the usage of this individual's Polish name, I would certainly be supportive of his name being at the Polish title.


 * Would you happen to know if Dzierzon was of Polish or Silesian background?


 * I would like to advise all involved parties to assume good faith and tone down some of the rhetoric used. Please remember that Wikipedia works by building consensus. Olessi 04:22, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Citation needed
I added the &#91;citation needed&#93; template to the statement that he "recognized himself as Pole". While I have no opinion on the accuracy of the statement (I had never heard of him before this week), it is vitally important to provide verifiability, and I could see the statement being challenged in the future. Olessi 04:29, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Are you on duty from Ge Wiki? You did not heard about Jan Dzierzon up to recent week and you want switch article, yes? You have given there two English position and three Polish in Literature. Please read it. In this circumstances, direct you also to contact Kluczborg museum and ask for facts. There was an article in: Dziennik Zachodni 1961, nr 190 B. S.: "Samo moje nazwisko mówi, żem Polak z urodzenia". There should be most of answer to you questions regarding citation. I will be appreciate if you will first ask me question before changing the text. Because you are completely unfamiliar with the subject I sense you action as hostile intrusion. See my comments to revisions also. Andrew 07Dec06 1:02am


 * I am not "on duty" from the German Wikipedia; practically the only editing I do there is interwiki linking. As I mentioned before, I am disinterested in how his name is presented in Polish or German, rather I am interested only in English sources (WP:UE). Unfortunately, I do not speak Polish and have no way to access Dziennik Zachodni. I did not list &#91;citation needed&#93; to doubt you, but so that a reference can be added to the article. Please see Citing sources for how and why to cite references. I will incorporate Dziennik Zachodni into a References section to assist you.


 * I am not a monarchist or revanchist; I listed both Prussian and German since those were the states he held citizenship with. Wikipedia's manual of style explicitly states to mention that. Additionally, including "only" when describing his Prussian Order of the Crown (4th class) is not describing the situation from a neutral point of view. It can be included if there is a published reason why Dzierzon "only" received it in the 4th class, but not just if you are simply of the opinion that he deserved a higher honor.


 * Keep in mind that there is no ownership of articles. It is unusual for my actions to be seen as a "hostile invasion"; I ask again that you assume good faith.Olessi 07:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Prussian citizenship
Yes Dzierzon was citizen of Prussia and I will fix it to “citizen of Prussia”. Ethnicity is = “An ethnic quality or affiliation resulting from racial or cultural ties.” This is something different then Nationality = The status of belonging to a particular nation by birth. Ethnicity is very weak term. Nation is something more then ethnic group. Please do not switch.


 * As an English-speaking American editing on the English Wikipedia, I am interested in how this individual is primarily known in English.

I am not interested in the English way of dealing with words. This can be used for names of thinks like knife or building. We deal with historic person whose name should be respected according to his wish – even if totalitarian, occupant or somebody like this changed it - actually for his sneaky purpose.


 * Based on the evidence at my disposal, it seems that he traditionally has been known by Germanic names he published under, which is why I suggested the change.

I suggest to respect the will of the person and his compatriots, and do not continue the Germanic drift. Looking on you interests on you web page seems to me you are interested in that, are you not?


 * The lack of widespread sources mentioning Dzierzon means that there is not a standard designation for him, however, and I am certainly not insisting on a page move. If you can provide more recent English works attesting to the usage of this individual's Polish name, I would certainly be supportive of his name being at the Polish title.

I hope you will not change the name anyway, but I will look for other older edition in English. Take for consideration that we had limited option to do such editions before 1990. I suggest you to look for most current standpoint in Kluczborg museum. At present time when Poland communicate with world more intensively the old Nazi propaganda is there verified.


 * Would you happen to know if Dzierzon was of Polish or Silesian background?

You provoking me or you present lack of knowledge. Silesians happened to be Slavic tribe. They spoke Polish or some Polish dialect, if you like. (You can believe me the dialect is not much different from literary (official) Polish language than any other Polish dialect.) Dzierzon recognized himself as Polish. He also consider himself as Silesian since in the same sentence he says: “Regarding my nationality, I am obviously, just as my name says, Polish of birth, since on Silesia people speak Polish…” This is rough (word to word) translation from Polish, however I believe you got the sense. Somebody can call himself Silesian because he lives in Silesia no matter what nationality he is Polish, German or Czech etc. However, true (native) Silesian is somebody like Dzierzon whose family is so ancient that could come from the ancient, native Slavic tribe.


 * I would like to advise all involved parties to assume good faith and tone down some of the rhetoric used.

Thank you for advice :) but I do not advise anybody if the person do not ask for. It is offensive since, it suggest I am wiser than the other is :). It could be doubtful is not it?


 * Please remember that Wikipedia works by building consensus.

As you possibly know, a consensus not always is possible. Take for consideration a case when somebody take other prosperity and become accustomed to it. Do you think Poland took something what does not belong to her? Seems to me this could be somebody trouble.


 * Unfortunately, I do not speak Polish and have no way to access Dziennik Zachodni.

Well if you have a good will you can at least read one of the publication in English. You could see that I am not only one who says Dzierzon is Polish and his name is Jan Dzierżon. If you want be objective you can found that there is lack of recent German publication saying he was German.


 * I did not list [citation needed] to doubt you, but so that a reference can be added to the article. Please see Wikipedia:Citing sources for how and why to cite references. I will incorporate Dziennik Zachodni into a References section to assist you.

Thank you for assistance. I have so many assistances on German Wiki.


 * I am not a monarchist or revanchist; I listed both Prussian and German since those were the states he held citizenship with.

Yes. I as told, the true – citizenship will be here as well as the nationality.


 * Wikipedia's manual of style explicitly states to mention that. Additionally, including "only" when describing his Prussian Order of the Crown (4th class) is not describing the situation from a neutral point of view.

No it is not neutral. It is totally objective and Dzierżon’s subjective.


 * It can be included if there is a published reason why Dzierzon "only" received it in the 4th class, but not just if you are simply of the opinion that he deserved a higher honor.

You can judge yourself. As I mentioned to you this is one of examples how Prussian governors treated Dzierzon and vice versa. Obviously, somebody like Karl Fleischer (NSDAP) pass over these facts. Obviously it would proof Dzierzon did not integrated with Prussia.


 * Keep in mind that there is no ownership of articles. It is unusual for my actions to be seen as a "hostile invasion";

You revert the article upside down. You show much of interest in Polish-German affairs. And you did the revert after week (or less) of study only. Conclussion …


 * I ask again that you assume good faith.

I do not assume good faith after my German Wiki experience. Are you able to understand this? Andrew--Serafin 21:26, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Andrew, I have not made any comments out of a desire to provoke you. I have been editing this article out of a desire to ensure it meets the standards and conventions of the English Wikipedia. I am sorry you had a negative experience with the German Wikipedia, but that is a separate project from this English project. Assuming good faith is a fundamental principle of the English Wikipedia; I advise you to give editors a chance instead of assuming the worst. I inquired about Silesian/Polish because Silesians are sometimes considered a separate ethnic group. I am not sure what you mean by "reverting the article upside down"; my editing has been done to ensure that its formatting and style is consistent with other biographical articles. As I do not anticipate being able to copy-edit the article further, I am removing it from my watchlist. Good luck with the article. Olessi 23:02, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

This discussion reminds me the one about Laurynas Gucevičius. He was born in a Lithuanian family, he was using Polish name Wawrzyniec Gucewicz. The article is protected since July. If Gucewicz is Lithuanian Laurynas Gucevičius, so Jan Dzierżon is Polish and the article should be protected. Xx236 10:13, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Where do you mean is the protection at Gucevičius? I found any on En Pl Li or Ge Wiki. I first time hear about Gucevičius anyway.
 * Seems to me he was mixed origin. Problem whose origin father or mother should be first (mean Polish-Lithuanian or Lithuanian-Polish). But I am in favor of the individual declaration, if existed. In the case of Lithuanians they very often Polonaised (I would not say Polished :))) freely – even they did not recognized difference between Lithuanian and Polish. I think Mickiewicz would be good exempale, Piłsucki, can be Sienkiewicz - who can count all of them. Any way this is somewhat easier to accept Lithuanian-Polish or even Lithuanian than some other cases. (For modern Lithuanians point of view – they lost intellectual elite)
 * What about Mary Curie-Skłodowska? On Fe Wiki seems to me is “French naturalized Polish physicist”, it is not too bad. Chopin is a composer and a Polish pianist. Dzierzon at least on En Wiki is Polish.
 * Well, I think most blocks are on Ge Wiki :)))))). If somebody counted? Andrew--Serafin 04:20, 9 December 2006 (UTC)


 * The protection was removed just after my comment, En.

Xx236 12:14, 11 December 2006 (UTC)


 * "I do not assume good faith after my German Wiki experience." - correction: the german wiki doesn't assume good faith any more after its experience with you ;-) --217.91.17.62 10:20, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

For the ANONIMUS: German Wiki need not assume my good fight. It will be enough if German Wiki will respect true ie. will be objective. After that, you can look for definition of “chauvinism”. Of course, I cannot imagine that you ever will apologize for you errors :)))). This is characteristic of higher culture. Best, Andrew Serafin 06:52, 11 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Serafin, please do not attack this anonymous user. no personal attacks are allowed whatsoever on Wikipedia.  the anon also bordered on a personal attack, but seeing as he was pointing out a flaw in your logic I do not think it would be a personal attack.  I fail to see how you can possibly claim that all of the thousands of German wiki users are wrong, but you are right, especially when you have run into the same objections here, from Polish editors nonetheless, seeing as you have come accross as a polish nationalist so far. I am assuming you are the same editor as this anon


 * --Jadger 11:31, 11 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Don't assume, here you can read it! --80.133.67.41 12:46, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Notes to German chauvinists
See —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 131.104.218.46 (talk) 18:22, 16 December 2006 (UTC).


 * please, no personal attacks.


 * --Jadger 19:14, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Anyone who has an opposing view than A.Serafin on Dzierzon, please state it here:

Documents of the the German Family of Johann Dzierzon
I am posting this (temporarily) to show the Dzierzon family menbers in Silesia and Saxony. Website http://www.familysearch.org LDS, Utah (type in Dzierzon)

Johann Dzierzon wrote down his own biography and stated that he lived with his brother's youngest son Franz Dzierzon. There are about 150 Dzierzons in the 2006 German Telephone book, including several Franz Dzierzon.

!31... Andrew Serafin is posting intimidating, attacking messages at EN and DE wikipedia. His insistence on Polish, not backed-up by any factual documents, only by someones book note, are contrary to all documents available including Dzierzon's own family descendends website.

Result from LDS search for: Dzierzon]

LDS Church Sites | LDS Country Sites

This was posted temporarily only for viewing. It was removed Labbas 16 December 2006

-

I hope you will be the person who will change errors on Ge Wiki
Dear Anonimus or 71.159.31.82 go to “Notes to German chauvinists” and link #42. Read there: “This is a note to the primary of Chauvinists” you will find there some sources of informatin which supports my assumption. Your gerealogy certificate prove only the forceful germanizsation in Prussia. If you will enter “Jan” instead “Johann” you will get “Franz” in Polish is “Franciszek”. What is most interesting you have his name in German phonebook and we Polish have his testimonies that Jan was Pole :))). Plese do not ask me to translate all the books about Jan Dzierzon from Polish to English or German.A


 * I would not recommend reading the "notes to German chauvinists" as the title obviously shows it is just a personal attack and has no basis in fact. It is best described as user:131.104.218.46's own kind of Mein Kampf, wherein he blames a conspiracy theory on the German wikipedia (and now on the english one) of meddling with his version of history. Why is the fact that his ancestors hundreds of years before were Poles? do his ancestors determine what he does with his life? the answer of course is no, so why does his ancestry matter? it had no impact on his life or why he is notable on a encyclopedia


 * --Jadger 23:47, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

All the facts are there even if some arrogants removed them from view.

As you know, the Silesia was part of Poland from X century. People in villages preserved the original Polish dialect for centuries. It is not unusual story. For example in Lithuania, it was part of Polish federation (yes, federation - we did not conquer Lithuania), the peasants preserved Lithuanian language thou all nobles during 400-500 hundreds years Polonaised. The ancestry of course determined his life. He recognized himself as Pole. The point is that the brain everybody descends from his parents. He never Germanized, opposed Prussian authorities and has strong sense of Polish origin. The roots and sentiments of such person, even he was mostly noted as apiculturist and researcher and less known from national/class sentiments and origin should be noted. It is for the heritage of his compatriots. You should understand it. A.


 * you are incorrect, Silesia was a part of Poland before the 10th century, but then it became property of the Kings of Bohemia, etc. etc. you can look it all up on the Silesia article if you do not believe me or any other wikipedia user. The fact that his family was expelled with most of the other Germans from the area speaks volumes, the Poles didn't even consider him Polish, you comments are simply historical revisionism.


 * --Jadger 22:29, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, just to let you (and possibly others) know... you apparently are not aware of the existence of Dzierżoniów. Poles do consider him Polish. They did it in 1946, when the town was given the new name. Stay cool...and informed at least. Revisionism accusations are not helpful. --Beaumont  (@)  19:16, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

yes, they like to take credit for every notable person that at one time or another lived in the area, but his descendents were not even considered by Poles as being Polish. that's like saying "Ok, you're famous, you're Polish. your son isn't famous, he's not Polish" he lived at a time when there was no Polish nation, so he considered him a Polish person by race/ethnicity, not by citizenship. We can't apply some modern PC revisionism to a time when racism and cultural differences were present. And remember, you're relying on the renaming done by Communists to substantiate claims; they renamed Chemnitz to Karl-Marx-Stadt and of course there is Leningrad and Stalingrad as well as Kaliningrad to talk of here also. Kalinin never came near Königsberg, so how can you use such reasoning to substantiate racial claims by a government that had a clear motive? You're using some very faulty reasoning, just because it was named something by communists does not make it true, I tend not to trust communists when there is such an obvious motive.

--Jadger 21:35, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
 * You seem to confuse nation with statehood. In spite of this, I'm tempted to agree with you that he probably considered himself Polish not in terms of citizenship but of race, ethnicity, language and nation. As for your concerns about expelled relatives, there is no need to be of one nationality in one family, especially in Silesia. I know something about it (BTW, it was his nephew who confirmed Jan's self-identification). As for renaming by commies, do you try to suggest that they had clear motive to name a town by someone considered German (or doubtful) by Poles?? I did not claim "he was Polish", I claimed, contrary to you, "he was considered Polish by Poles" (either you missed the point or you're using some very faulty reasoning). --Beaumont  (@)  23:13, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

As for your concerns about expelled relatives, there is no need to be of one nationality in one family, especially in Silesia sure not anymore, but in 1945 when ethnic Germans were expelled, it was another matter, these expulsions were based on race, not nationality. Again, you are applying modern PC revisionism to a time period when racism was commonplace. I am saying that by naming it after this person in Postwar Poland, it was an attempt to claim him as their own, in order to "one up" the Nazis, who named Lowkowitz Bienendorf, which was implied but not directly as obvious as the communist name changes. I do not confuse nation with statehood, I was just showing how often in English nation is used as a synonym with state and that we need to be careful of our choice of words as we are not writing this article for history or Politics majors, but the average layman who often views them as the same thing.

--Jadger 00:00, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Beaumont, whether a formerly German town was named Dzierżoniów or not in 1945, has absolutely nothing to do with anything regarding this discussion. In the wider scope of the debate it's a big Zero. If you feel it's necessary to sashay or flit, into the discussion, tell us something something useful, instead. Dr. Dan 02:08, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, modest understanding of WP principles permits similar claims. So I here is my help. Whether Poles regard(ed) him Polish or not is a key observation about existence of a considerable point of view. If someone happens not to be aware of this POV (or to deny its existence), I try to explain. Below you'll find some usefull clues about the baptismal certificate question you insist on. If you had some more problems, do not hesitate to ask more directly. --Beaumont (@)  08:03, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Jadger,
 * 1) Right, the naming the town Biennendorf was a similar action; no doubt Germans consider(ed) him German. Now you understand there are at least two POVs. We can negotiate the balance and the language, go to the sources etc, but not just deny existence of one's POV. BTW, do you have any contemporary English language sources considering him German? Some sources claiming the contrary were indicated (I think I could find some more). 2) If you do not confuse nation and statehood you recognize the claim "he's not Polish" he lived at a time when there was no Polish nation" incorrect. 3) As for modern PC... If we agree that these were times of racism and yet he declared himself Polish, then it is hard to assign other nationality to him. Especially, if one realizes the jus sanguinis classical German concept (as opposed to French jus soli). Actually, I have more complex views on this (I'd explain later). --Beaumont (@)  08:03, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


 * 1) That is what I stated, they were doing it more subtlely is what I said. Tell me, did you read what I wrote or just random words that fit what you want to pretend that I said?
 * 2) I was showing by example what I outlined above, and I was pointing out that he was not Polish, he was German, his blood/ethnicity/whatever you want to call it was of Polish extraction. He was a Pole, but not Polish.
 * 3) as jus sanguinis states, not necessarily by blood, but language, etc. most of his writing was in German, and the dominant language in the region at the time was German. As I have previously stated, I would not be adverse to calling him a Polish-German, but he was simply not Polish.

--Jadger 22:25, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Reverted 18Dec06
I would like to encourage you to read previous discussions first before making changes. It is enough to use “Find” from web browser, for example: “Old Catholic”. You will found some new proofs go ahead. If you repeat old stories without proof, it is only annoyance.

>Old Catholizism (Old Catholic Church) in 1873.

In ”Insistence on Polish”; point 6) You have no evidence about joining Old Catholic Church by Dzierżon. You supposition are on the base of wrong Soltisec (Scholtyssek) statement. You do not have any other documents as registration from the Old Catholic Church etc. >since 1871 Germany, where he also died.

Kingdom of Prussia existed up to 1918. It was a PART of German Empire since 1871

>Polish wiki does not seem to call him Polish.

For Polish folks it is obvious. Look in title like: ”W. Chmielewski "World-Famous Polish Beekeeper - Dr. Jan Dzierżon (1811-1906) and his work in the centenary year of his death" in Journal of Apicultural Research, Volume 45(3), 2006. If you know Polish: „H. Borek i S. Mazak "Polskie pamiątki rodu Dzierżoniów" Opole 1983” on: „Urodzony w polskiej rodzinie w Łowkowicach”. All other books in the „Literatura” say he was Pole. Can you read them? Do it.

>Polish wiki does mention Old Catholizism-Starokatolikow

All the story about Jan Dzierzon’s Old Catholicism are from one source from Scholtyssek writings. There are no actual proof of it.

>Dzierzons Family was Silesian and German, in 1945 they were all expelled.

This is other story. It has nothing to do with Jan Dzierzon. He was priest. His nearest relative was Franciszek - his nephew, this one who testified Dr Dzierzon was Pole. Franiszek children also preserved Polish nationality. All of them, according to my knowledge. Some Dzierzons could Germanized or even be unfairly recognized as Germans and expelled. But as I say it is other story it has nothing to do with Polish sentiments/nationality of Jan Dzierzon. See also:

>He was not Polish

Unfortunately, you are not right. A. -

Latest claim: Dzierzon was Polish-born
Dzierzon was Polish-born is incorrect. He was born in Lowkowitz, Silesia, Prussia and he died in Lowkowitz, Silesia, Germany. He was not born in Poland, he never went to Poland. Poland at his time was Russia(n Poland). To accomodate the Dzierzon was Polish crowd at wikipedia one can add that he was ethnic Polish, or partially Polish, which is the way people are described in USA. One could also add that he had a Polish ancestor or ancestors. But Polish-born or just Polish is incorrect. Besides the church records of birth, marriage, death of Lowkowitz and the German expellee/refugee website of his family show otherwise, Labbas 4 January 2007
 * The book Deutsche und Polen (2003) at page 191 mentions that Johann Dzierzon was "polonized" by Polish propaganda.Smith2006 (talk) 18:09, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Another link: http://www.oberschlesien-aktuell.de/presse/presse/schlesien/030501.pdf "Stupid nonsense about Silesia and its inhabitants". Next century, Poland will also claim "Gerard Staróst" (Gerhart Hauptmann) as Polish, I guess. Ancient and Only Polish you know. One of his books was translated in Polish and he lived and died in Poland - for one years, 1945-46, but still. He is 100 % Greater Polish. Whichever suits the Polish interest.Smith2006 (talk) 18:09, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Polish-born means born to Polish parents, not born in Poland. Obviously the latter would not be possible, as Poland did not exist at that time (see Partitions of Poland). --Lysytalk 19:11, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

--
 * Lysy, Polish-born means born in Poland, sample:

Google search: 

. 'Born to Polish parents' is probably, what you are trying to say.

Anyone elses input on that? Labbas 4 January 2007


 * why does it matter? are the bees in Poland unique from every other bee? or did the German bees get expelled in 1945 along with the Germans who lived in the area?


 * --Jadger 00:00, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Anyway, changed to "born to Polish parents" to keep Labbas happy. --Lysytalk 00:50, 5 January 2007 (UTC) --- Jadger, "born to Polish parents" is a way of describing a person, who is born in a different country, than his parents. In the case of Dzierzon, the parents and a number of other relatives are all born in Silesia and towns very near or in Lowkowitz. They were and are all Schlesier (Silesians) for many centuries, not Poles.
 * Lysy-

So it is still incorrect, the way it is now. I am posting here again (temporary) partial LDS list: birth, marriage, death records for the Dzierzons, so you and Jadger can take a look. Why do some people insist on wrongly calling him Polish ? and why do people continously remove the info, that he joined the Old Catholic Church in 1873 ? (removed temporary posted LDS list of several hundred Dzierzons in Silesia) Labbas 5 January 2007)

Labbas, I'm not sure what are you trying to prove ? That there were no Poles in Silesia ? By the way, I would recommend you to take a look at WP:OR. You should rely on published secondary sources and not conduct your own research. --Lysytalk 07:27, 5 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Maybe these questions have been already answered, but can someone humor me with brief answers. Was Dzierzon baptised "Johann" or "Jan", back in 1811? Did he write letters to family in Polish or German or both (especially in his youth)? Lastly any student of history knows that after the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was partitioned, great number of Poles and other nationalities became "citizens" of one of the three empires involved. Did these Poles become Russians, or Germans, or Austrians, and lose their ethnicities? If so, in what time frame? After one year, twenty years, fifty years? Please consider the fact that some one hundred and twenty-three years after the last partition, there were millions of people who acknowledged their true "ethnicity" in word and deed. Probably the best explanation as to why these countries didn't truly disappear, and were resurrected rather easily. Lastly, this belief that there "was no Poland" during the partitions is a goofy, hateful, POV, a "technicality" that was not born out by history, as a glance at the world map today will show. Dr. Dan 14:41, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

--- Lysy, none of this is Original research. All the information is on internet (I am posting it below)


 * It is OR because you are doing the research and drawing the conclusions based on sources available on the Internet, instead of using published research results. Should not be doing this.--Lysytalk 20:14, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Dr Dan, first of all, what does Silesia have to do with Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth ? Johann Dzierzon lived all his live in Silesia, never in Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

Anyway, Dr. Johann Dzierzon, Altmeister der deutschen Imker, and his family, longtime Silesians, can be seen on family photos and with his own biography, that he wrote August 4. 1885 at Lowkowitz Johann Dzierzon Biography. The LDS church records of his parents, him and and his brothers, his nephew, Franz Dzierzon, with whom he lived, can all be seen on LDS http://www.familysearch.org (search: Dzierzon) The family website with Dzierzons own biography also has a biography written 20 years after his death, where the same house Johann Dierzon lived earlier, belonged to Alois Dzierzon. Apparently his brother had children, but he did not. A photo taken from his gravesite before 1945 shows Johann Dzierzon. Is his graveyard and gravesite still there today ?? Looking at all the Dzierzons in Silesia at his time and looking at todays German telephone book with 121 Dzierzon families, one can say, yes the answer is clear.

A university website Johann Dzierzon bee link:.

The wikipedia article should not even be named Jan Dzierzon (In English it would be John anyway) Considering that all his family are refugees/expellees, that seems like spitting on his grave, which is probably destroyed, like nearly all of the graves, when the communists and Poles took over Silesia. Labbas 5 January 2007 ---
 * Labbas, you should be more careful with your accusations. From Polish Wikipedia: Grób Dzierżona znajduje się w Łowkowicach, a w domu, w którym mieszkał pod koniec życia, mieści się izba jego pamięci. - his grave is in Łowkowice. --Lysytalk 20:20, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Lysy, about the graves, that is not an accusation, that is reality. I have seen some of the grave yards, or rather what is left of them, if anything. If his grave is still there, then probably what was done, the gravestone was hidden somewhere and has recently (after the fall of the Iron Curtain and as new member of the E.U.) been re-posted, because as we can tell from the External link- there is a Schlesische Minderheit (Silesian minority) Germans still in Silesia. The internet links and Jan Dzierzon External links post publications. So Lysy, please no distraction attempts from the real issue.

Labbas 5 January 2007
 * Come on, the Poles named the town, Dzierżoniów, after Dzierzon - why would they be destroying his grave at the same time ? You are right about many other graveyards, alas, many are neglected, and you might have noticed that I've had actually posted a photo illustrating this, but as always, generalisations and easy conclusions are not good things. --Lysytalk 21:32, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

- Actually, the one you posted still looks pretty good, one can tell, the grass, weeds have been cut. This is more like what most left over grave yards look like, or worse with a whole bunch of garbage thrown on top, if they were not completely bulldozed alltogether. On the other hand I have also have seen some recent memorials or attempts to salvage what is left of grave stones kept decent and with flowers. Labbas 5 January 2007


 * If things have cooled down a bit, I would first like to thank Labbas for ackowledging part of my remarks (although nether he nor anyone else answered my basic question). As for the relationship between the PLC and Silesia, it was not my point to associate the two any more than your and Lysy's associating the condition of the German graves in Silesia today has to to do with the ethnicity of Dzierzon. But I must say that there is most definitely a Slavic link by way of Bohemia and Poland that can be connected to Silesia, but that's long before Dzierzon. I brought up the PLC only to demonstrate that during the partitions, the ethnicities of its components might have been denied, de juris, but not could not be defacto, by the partitioners. And in its own convoluted way, this denial finds its way into these arguments over and over again here and elsewhere. To a Pole with a true feeling of love and patriotism for things that are, and people  who are Polish, and find this debate insulting and untrue, read the talk pages on Laurynas Gucevicius or Antanas Baranauskas. Then you will get a better perpesctive on the "issue". Meanwhile, Labbas was kind enough to show me Dzierzon's tombstone showing "Johann" before 1945. Would he be so kind as to show me a copy or link to the baptismal certificate (or anybody else), that I asked about? Can we get a photo of the grave today (I have a feeling that there has been some "adjustment")? For the record, personally as a witness to the desecration of German graves in the territories that Poland acquired as a result of Germany's defeat in the Second World War, I found it sad and barbaric. I hope it was more of a result of the communist regimes fomenting this ugly hatred, than a Polish trait to do so on its own. Dr. Dan 03:38, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

While we are off-topic here, as for the condition of the graves, it varies a lot. I think it'd be over-simplification to attribute it to post-war hatred or Communist propaganda alone. It's been a mixture of negligence, stupidity and a number of other conditions that resulted in this. Some of the cemeteries were destroyed by administrative decisions of the regime, some others were vandalised, finally many others decayed simply because nobody cared for them, but similar fate of also many Polish graves, monuments or historical buildings that did not fit the "working class" agenda of the regime. Despite this, some graves had been taken care of by locals and survived. This is being reversed now, but slowly. Too slow, in my opinion. --Lysytalk 11:17, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

As for Dzierzon, the fact that someone spoke Polish would be an indication that he was Polish, but speaking German would not indicate anything. My Polish ancestors spoke German and had German names all right. --Lysytalk 11:27, 6 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Since they had German names and spoke German, Lysy, what is your criterion to say that they were Polish? Maybe that could clarify this debate. Dr. Dan 14:53, 6 January 2007 (UTC)


 * They considered themselves Polish, and others considered them Polish. In the beginning of 20th century they would speak Polish at home, but not outside, went to German kindergarten, schools, etc. So no Polish language in documents etc. Interestingly, I have German ancestors as well in the same branch of the family tree so apparently they did get along well :-) BTW: my grandparents had high respect for Germany, German culture etc. Until WW2, that is. --Lysytalk 15:08, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't completely understand what and others considered them Polish, means, but that they considered themselves Polish is a sufficent explanation for me. Although I wonder what happens when a Zulu "considers" himself a Pole or a German? BTW, what was on Dzierzon's baptismal certificate? Jan or Johann? Anybody! Dr. Dan 17:18, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

- Just some quick remarks,

Dr. Dan, Lysy,

as a Catholic priest in Silesia, Dzierzon certainly would have learned Polish, besides Latin, so one could say, he was multi-lingual. This was of course nothing unusual for a learned man in Europe of his time or for people living in border regions in general. Kids learned one language from the father, another from the mother, yet anyother from the grandparents. And if one area of Europe had problems, people moved to another area, often whole village together (just check out genealogy).

Germany is not an immigration country, yet has a great number of people from all over the world, inner cities often overwhelming. Law says something to the effect that anyone who considers him or herself of partial German ancestry or belonging to or just interested in German Culture, speaks German, living for a time in Germany can be a German. The same, a German can live for a long time in another country, yet remain German.

Dr. Dan, I am pretty sure that his birth/baptism certificate most likely stated Latin: Ioannes. Labbas 6 January 2007


 * Dr. Dan, concerning the baptismal certificate, the wikipedians are not supposed to rely on primary sources (it is considered OR), but on the secondary ones (roughly, published articles, books etc..,for names encyclopedias are good as well, see WP:RS). But the baptismal certificate is virtually meaningless here, a big Zero if you like your formule :> --Beaumont  (@)  08:27, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I am not planning to rely on anything. I am looking for an answer to my question. As for your remarks concerning primary sources vs. secondary sources, you'll find that your own links make it obvious that secondary sources obtain a great deal of information from primary sources. As far as what is named and not named in Poland (street names, town names, etc.), as evidence of nationality, please research the Henryk Batuta case. In the meantime has anyone located a copy, or know what's on the baptismal certificate? Dr. Dan 15:34, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Batuta was not Polish but Belarusian of Jewish origin. Therefore he's not relevant here. --Lysytalk 15:48, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The List of Polish Jews (a travesty in its own right), lists many Jews who are not Polish either. Dr. Dan 16:00, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It seems almost all the notable Poles were Jewish. As you can see, Batuta is not on the list. He must have been Belarusian. --Lysytalk 16:34, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Concerning Batuta, you're kiddind, arent you? Batuta was a hoax, I can not see why it could be of interest here. BTW, I know the case in details and for a long time. A nice foto (a primary source) used there clearly shows some danger assigned to this class of sources. Dr. Dan is perfectly right claiming that secondary sources rely on the primary ones. The difference is the generality and the synthesis level, and the fact that the necessary interpretations are given by qualified experts or scholar authors (we, wikipedians are not supposed to do this).
 * As for notable Poles, your quite right, while slightly OT; try to take it back below. --Beaumont (@)  20:44, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * How about Yitzhak Shamir? He's on the list, isn't he? Dr. Dan 19:05, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Born in Ruzhany, Belarus. --Lysytalk 19:23, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Yet on the List of Polish Jews. Dr. Dan 22:50, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, feel free to add Batuta there as well. He's dead so he cannot defend himself. --Lysytalk 08:49, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Lysy, Henryk Batuta is a "special" and uniquely Polish contribution to Wikipedia. I would not dare touch it. You can keep him alive and defend him instead. And Beaumont, when Lysy and I are having a "pissing match," (and we've had quite a few now and then), kindly stick your nose somewhere else. We're quite aware of the hoax, thank you. Dr. Dan 01:30, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Dr. Dan, you are confusing wikipedia with USENET or some other forum. WP talk pages are not meant to provide space for "pissing matches". If you enjoy them so much, consider moving elsewhere where you could freely develop your eristic talents, thanks in advance. EOT --Beaumont (@)  07:31, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

..back from OT? Since I'm becoming busy in real life, I just give my stance on Jan Dzierzon and plan to take a wikibreak (good news!). Well, nothing new: while born to Polish parents and identified himself as a Pole, Dzierzon was Prussian/German citizen. He was involved in the local(and wider) culture, predominantly German (he published both in Polish and German). As far as I can understand the sources (indicated somewhere above), he was reluctant to nationality issues, especially when considering himself. He stated that the science has no nationality (well, yes, he was a "forerunner" of "modern PC", as a great deal of scientists...). All this makes me feel that we could apply a similar attitude in the article (i.e. no "pure nation" presentation, not too much stress on nationality/ethnicity). The text is not far from this, although I'd prefer to see the words "German citizen" (seems like few versions back there was something like this). --Beaumont (@)  20:44, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Ditto. --Lysytalk 22:26, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

---

He/they are back
He/they are back and at it again (A Serafin aka 131..) and here

Labbas 8 January 2007 ---

This very pathetic that the troll like activity is accepted. The article was edited and established year before the troll knew anything about. I accepted move of nationality to second paragraph. I accepted the format given by Lysy on 4 January also. I was also in the way to accept the nationality in the second sentence in second paragraph. However I am not going expansion of the German word stick front of nationality. There a two reason for that: 1)	the troll like chasing because biased view was eliminated (lack of acceptance of truth and historical facts) in other article (namely “recovered Teritories) 2)	Citizenship is as little important as worth is paper of a passport. It has nothing to do with intelligence, work and discoveries of an individual. In opposition the origin – genes and brain goes from the parents is not it :) (in fact the social environment is also important, for good and the bad result) In the case of JD he was bring up in Polish family and local Polish society. Inevitably the childhood is most influential period for development. I will not discuss the German environment and education just to avoid irritation of the troll(s). I am very sorry I disappoint you Lysy sense of compromise but I found such philosophy unpractical Best--Serafin 22:49, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

You yourself are trolling in much of your rambling speech there 131/Serafin (let he who is innocent cast the first stone). By calling others Trolls, you yourself are inciting them and trolling.
 * 1) no idea what you said there, perhaps someone more competent can translate for you on wikipedia so we understand what you are saying.
 * 2) any proof that he was brought up in local Polish society? I would like to see a source, as has been discussed, his family was Germanized, hence why they were expelled in 1945, he was brought up in German society, in German schools, in a land mostly populated by Germans. Genes are not solely responsible for his genius as you are claiming (which is of essence claiming his Polishness was his source of knowledge/genius).  Any person, even brilliant people like Stephen Hawking or Albert Einstein can have children that cant speak any language whatsoever, or learn anything except the most basic things (I'm thinking along the lines of feral children).  What is your next claim? that because Black men naturally have more muscle mass than whites they should be our slaves doing all our manual labour?

--Jadger 04:37, 10 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Could someone kindly help Serafin? After reading his remarks several times, I could not make any sense as to what he was trying to tell us. Maybe someone can interpret these remarks for us. It's also quite possible that he could not understand Jadger's response either. Serafin, if you are paying for an electronic translator, you need to get a refund. Dr. Dan 15:08, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Beaumont's comments to Jadger about 'Dzierzon's self-identification'
Hello Beaumont,I noticed that you have recently joined the Dzierzon discussion and especially Dzierzon's self-identification. You may want to read his own biography and look at his family photos at. He himself states that his mother Maria and father Simon had a small farm in the same place in Silesia. In other words they were longtime burghers of Silesia, as well as him. You look at the church records with birth, marriage, death from Lowkowitz and surrounding area and all his Dzierzon family members, who all wound up after 1945 in Western Germany and you find no traces at all of either him or his parents having moved from Poland to Silesia, Germany. His grave stone also identifies him as Johann Dzierzon.

The only Polish people, who came to the Silesian town, I find reference to, is by the way on the current Polish Kluczbork.. (?) site, which tells us that Protestant Polish people took refuge there in the 1600's. We all know, that the Counter-Reformation and the Jesuits 'convinced' the Silesians and others to re-catholizise. Perhaps that is, where Johann Dzierzon had gotten his surname from.

I have not seen any self-description of him by himself as a Pole. The wikipedia Polish group, lead by A Serafin, who is also Nr. 131.. are the only ones with a note from a 1961 book, which is added to the incorrectly named Jan Dzierzon wikipedia article. This not only claims, that he said that, but insisting on, that he actually did say that. Where is the actual proof? Can you please post an actual proof. For weeks people were asked to post proof, but nothing yet. That quote, supposedly from him,'identifying himself as a Polish person', actually just says, that his surname is a Polish-based surname. Now on this same claim do you or do all Polish people now have the right to claim, that anyone with a Polish surname anywhere in the world, is a Polish person? I am truly puzzled by 'Dzierzon's supposed self-identification', which seems to be only in a 1961 book note by someone else. Labbas 9 January 2007

Why is Serafin/131.104.. answering for Beaumont
The previous message was addressed to Beaumont. For some strange reason someone with Number 131.104.218.46, who is also A. Serafin has answered for Beaumont.

I do not believe, that Beaumont is one and the same as Serafin/131..

Why then is Serafin/ 131.. answering for Beaumont?

Seems to me, that, that that is very similar to Serafin/131.. answering for Dzierzon.

I do not mind discussion with anyone one this, however after a number of 'discussions' with Serafin/131.. previously, I had already stepped back. For obvious reasons I will again do so and for the tume being, no further discussions on Dzierzon.

Labbas 9 January 2007


 * sorry, I'm quite busy now.. intending to respond, but unable to do that quickly. BTW, I'm willling to do some more research (or go back sources I've found before) as well. Thank you for your understanding. --Beaumont (@)  13:29, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

To Beaumont No problem, understand. Anyone who has tried to discuss this particular matter for some time, will most likely sooner or later get 'too busy' or like me, just step back for the time being, not wanting to continue running in circles, talking to the wall and whats more, wanting to avoid the constant attacks on many by said user (therefore also my 'oh no, he's back and at it again). Labbas 10 January 2007 ______________________

The following message was addressed to Beaumont, taken apart and answered by 131.104.218.46/ A. Serafin: --- >Hello Beaumont,I noticed that you have recently joined the Dzierzon discussion and especially Dzierzon's self-identification. You may want to read his own biography and look at his family photos at [56].
 * What exactly the autobiography is supposed to prove? That he wrote German. And where he identifies himself as German? And what the photos suppose to proof?

>He himself states that his mother Maria and father Simon had a small farm in the same place in Silesia. In other words they were longtime burghers of Silesia, as well as him.
 * Yes they were: “Name of his great-grandfather Jerzy (1717-1800) appears in the oldest Polish chronicles of Lowkowitz “(W. Kocowicz 1987).

>You look at the church records with birth, marriage, death from Lowkowitz and surrounding area and all his Dzierzon family members, who all wound up after 1945 in Western Germany and you find no traces at all of either him or his parents having moved from Poland to Silesia, Germany.
 * It only proof that the official language was German and Germanisation was on the way look: V. Raczek, "Erinnerungeu all den Altmelster der Bienenzuclit Dr. Dzierzon"

>His grave stone also identifies him as Johann Dzierzon.
 * The grave stone is repeatedly mentioned by many as proof. The stone was funded by Austrian Beekeepers’ Association and have nothing to do with Dzierzon’s family will. I already mentioned about it in earlier part of the discussion. Lokk up.

>The only Polish people, who came to the Silesian town, I find reference to, is by the way on the current Polish Kluczbork.. (?) site, which tells us that Protestant Polish people took refuge there in the 1600's. We all know, that the Counter-Reformation and the Jesuits 'convinced' the Silesians and others to re-catholizise. Perhaps that is, where Johann Dzierzon had gotten his surname from.
 * You like to forgot that orginal population of Silesia was Polish people. Look for “Recoveret Teritories” article. The orginal Polish language survived for hundred od years. (It is not exceptional facts you can found such event on Lithuania and others countries where the native language was not changed in vilages). As you can imagine because there were fewer schools.

>I have not seen any self-description of him by himself as a Pole.
 * I am not surprised of it. German do not publicised such things. You need read Polish. You have editions by Polish authors in English. You can find them in “Literature” sections. Also you disbelieve recent Polish authors but you believe on NSDAP propagandists Karl Fleischer (his editions are 50-70 years old). I ask many times for recent German beekeeping historians who say Jan Dzierzon was German.

>The wikipedia Polish group, lead by A Serafin, who is also Nr. 131.. are the only ones with a note from a 1961 book, which is added to the incorrectly named Jan Dzierzon wikipedia article.
 * The correct name of Jan Dzierzon is Dzierżon the z is with dot above. “Dzierżyć” means to keep in Polish language. What do you mean a note from 1961. All Polish beekeeping historians say Dzierzon was Polish. You just disregard parts which are inconvenient.

>This not only claims, that he said that, but insisting on, that he actually did say that. Where is the actual proof?
 * In Kluczbork museum. There is many more interesting thinks about the Polish Dzierzon family and their testimonies. I will encourage you to find proof of yours statement JD was German. Nobody yet give me one except the NSDAP propagandists Karl Fleischer scribbles. Autobiography do not say anything of such, we already know it, is not?

>That quote, supposedly from him,'identifying himself as a Polish person', actually just says, that his surname is a Polish-based surname.
 * The citation say: “Regarding my nationality, I AM obviously, just as my name says, Polish of birth, since on Silesia people speak Polish…” in Polish version is: "Samo moje nazwisko mówi, żem Polak z urodzenia" which is “just my name says I AM Pole of birth” Further the sentence says: “because from 10 birthday I found myself in Breslau and I studied there I become German educated, but the education does not accept borders or nationality.” I did not include the other part before as I avoided irritating Germans chauvinists. Now you have it.
 * Original Polish text: „Co do mojej narodowości, jestem oczywiście, jak już samo nazwisko moje mówi, Polakiem z urodzenia, gdyż na Śląsku mówi się po polsku, a że od 10 roku życia znalazłem się we Wrocławiu i tam studiowałem, stałem się Niemcem z wykształcenia. Ale nauka nie uznaje granic ani narodowości.”Original in Museum of. J. Dzierżona in Kluczborku, sygn. 35, 14, 11 Folge, Zur Charakteristik Dr. J. Dzierzon.
 * Are you really assume that Prussia was an asylum of tolerance and love? If so you would be surprised. Dzierzon did not have a reason to love Prussia.

>Now on this same claim do you or do all Polish people now have the right to claim, that anyone with a Polish surname anywhere in the world, is a Polish person?
 * No. But who has claim that a member of a family living presently in Germany have to be definitely Greman.

>I am truly puzzled by 'Dzierzon's supposed self-identification', which seems to be only in a 1961 book note by someone else.
 * No. It is in all Polish books.

Best, A -- This previous text was written by A.Serafin/131.104.218.46 10 January 2007 -

"he considered himself Polish" - OR?
In the article the stated text ("and he considered himself a Pole [1]") is apparently sourced by this line: "[1]^ Dziennik Zachodni, nr 190 B. S.: "Samo moje nazwisko mówi, żem Polak z urodzenia" 1961.". However, this sentence seems to have come from Jan Dzierżon himself, the subject of the article, a primary source. "he considered himself a Pole" is only a mere interpretation of "Samo moje nazwisko mówi, żem Polak z urodzenia" (Poltran translation: "My surname says just, that pole from birth"). "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a secondary source," says the policy. Do you have a (reliable secondary) source for the claim "he considered himself a Pole"? Sciurinæ 14:09, 10 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Sciurinæ, extreme wikilawyering is a sign of desperation, you know ;p --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 19:54, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Piotrus, so are personal attacks like the one you just made.


 * --Jadger 02:02, 12 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, what's your point then, Jadger ? --Lysytalk 02:05, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The only violation of WP:NPA I can see here, Jadger, is your slander above. Per Lysy: what's your point?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 02:53, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Piotrus, wikilawyering means breaking the spirit of a rule or guideline, not quoting it. If someone "sources" a statement about a disputed point by adding a source but in reality this doesn't back the claim up, ie pseudo-sourcing, then this is wikilawyering; but not demanding compliance with NOR and V to avoid that practice. And when you really thought that wikilawyering was just arguing like a lawyer, then I guess you've broken the spirit of the essay wikilawyering. ;-P Sciurinæ 12:09, 12 January 2007 (UTC)


 * "żem" is not equal to "że". "żem" is an older langage word and means "że jestem" in English means "I am". AS>

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 131.104.218.46 (talk) 23:52, 10 January 2007 (UTC).
 * It's the title of the article. The article itself is the secondary source. --Lysytalk 17:16, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * ... in which you can find what translates as "He considered himself a Pole"? Sciurinæ 17:21, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * No, I don't know the article. Probably Olessi, who posted it as a source would do this best. --Lysytalk 17:26, 10 January 2007 (UTC)


 * 131.104.218.46/Serafin first mentioned that source above. As he/she was unfamiliar with how to add it as a reference to the article, I assisted with that. I have not read the article in question. Hope this helps... Olessi 22:25, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

The best source of Dzierzon biography is L. Brożek "Jan Dzierżon. Studium monograficzne" Opole 1978. There is everything including the Jan Dzierzon self reorganization. The problem is that some people need to have meal directly front of them, and in their own language. The same time disregarding second hand statements even if there more then one of the same kind of. Best AS>

since 131 edited in the middle of previous posts, i will quote him here: ""żem" is not equal to "że". "żem" is an older langage word and means "że jestem" in English means "I am". AS>" so? your point being? it doesn't change anything, so the translation is now My surname says just that, I am a Pole from birth instead of My surname says just, that pole from birth (no difference). this doesn't change anything about the discussion, the discussion is the fact that it is only stated in 1/2 a sentence in the whole webpage, and is in the title. the discussion is about the credibility of the article and finding a better source, not about what the sentence says, we have all accepted what it says.

--Jadger 03:33, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

If Brożek concludes that Dzierżon was Polish, then simply quote him with a page number. --Lysytalk 08:33, 11 January 2007 (UTC) -- You welcome. Half of the book discuses the nationality issues and is in " Further reading" section, but if you wish single page no problem. AS>--131.104.218.46 10:47, 12 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Serafin/131, if "he considered himself a Pole" is based on several sources, as you claim in the article, quote their relevant passages. There are enough Polish wikipedians here who could translate it. Sciurinæ 12:09, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Original Polish text: „Co do mojej narodowości, jestem oczywiście, jak już samo nazwisko moje mówi, Polakiem z urodzenia, gdyż na Śląsku mówi się po polsku, a że od 10 roku życia znalazłem się we Wrocławiu i tam studiowałem, stałem się Niemcem z wykształcenia. Ale nauka nie uznaje granic ani narodowości.”Original in Museum of. J. Dzierżona in Kluczborku, sygn. 35, 14, 11 Folge, Zur Charakteristik Dr. J. Dzierzon. from Brożek. It was already above in discussion given. There are sevaral English texts so need not translation. Seem to me only Germans do not want recognize this obvious fact, is not it? --Serafin 15:21, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I've read it before. Did you not read my first comment here about primary sources? Now, do you have any (secondary) sources saying explicitly that he considered himself Polish? If so, quote them. Sciurinæ 16:38, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

If I understand you correctly you want know who and when the citation created. On the page 43 of "Jan Dzierżon studium monograficzne" the author cities the words and provide the signature in Museum of. J. Dzierżona in Kluczbork. The format of the narration does not assure me if this letter (paper) is directly from Dzierzon handwriting or is cited by the recipient of Dzierzon's letter. If you want be 100% sure you need contact the museum I can give you some e-mail and some of Polish administrator can get what you want. What I can do for you I can photocopy the page and send to you as picture? via e-mail? or something like that. Now, this is not the single foundation that Dzierzon considered himself as a Pole. There are testimonies of his nephew and ward Franciszek (Frank). Most important, you can start believe on our Polish statements or trouble the issue in infinity. However expanding this argues in infinity is double irritating because in Prussia people who show his national and social sentiments were in deep trouble for it. Dzierzon had the troubles and attempted to avoid multiply them. The Prussian persecutions were systematic and virulent. He avoided to say directly what now you investigate as long as he could. Thus the so characteristic Prussian approach accumulates with present German jingoism. On other words in the past Dzierzon had to avoid the direct declaration and presently some Germans arrogantly refuse to accept any proof then the absolute one. I revert to them the question: Where Dzierzon says he considered himself a German? We have many small proofs and few good ones that he considered himself a Pole, but except that Dzierzon spoke German and had to be German citizen (he actually had no choice on his native land in this matter) nothing shows he liked to be German. In opposite he had very unfriendly relations with Prussian government. Let me know specifically for what citations (I mean from what book more) you asking for. In this way we can solve the query faster. We probably will not be able to write all the monograph again in English and probably it would be necessary to accept Polish statements more easily.--Serafin 06:32, 13 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not arrogant or a jingoist, nor do I refuse to accept proof, so focus completely on the matter at hand, please. I've asked for the line "he considered himself a Pole" to be fully sourced, as the article pretends it was. I tried to explain to you that a previously unpublished interpretation of a primary source, whether it is true or not, is not enough according to policy. If you have a source that really states that Dzierzon "considered himself a Pole", quote it. If not, don't waste your time talking. If you believe that he couldn't describe himself as a Pole in Prussia, quote a source directly related to Dzierzon saying so (in case you can't find anything like this, make sure you don't establish a synthesis of published material serving to advance a position to get round it). Sciurinæ 14:01, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

>I'm not arrogant or a jingoist, nor do I refuse to accept proof, so focus completely on the matter at hand, please.


 * I did not say anything about your attitude. I pointed to you my point of wives regarding some other individuals’ claims. It is important for me to show the historical background of the case. Without that we can not balance the sources of information.

>I've asked for the line "he considered himself a Pole" to be fully sourced, as the article pretends it was. I tried to explain to you that a previously unpublished interpretation of a primary source, whether it is true or not, is not enough according to policy. If you have a source that really states that Dzierzon "considered himself a Pole", quote it.


 * The "he considered himself a Pole" is fully sourced. I will not talk about it any more. If you have a reasonable question about texts from the sources I will provide to you. In other way it is only annoying expanding of artificial considerations.

Best --Serafin 19:43, 13 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry for the delay. Regarding your first point, I had written "I'm not arrogant or a jingoist, nor do I refuse to accept proof, so focus completely on the matter at hand, please." in response to your lines (I've highlighted the train of thought) "'Most important, you can start believe on our Polish statements or trouble the issue in infinity.However expanding this argues in infinity is double irritating because in Prussia people who show his national and social sentiments were in deep trouble for it. Dzierzon had the troubles and attempted to avoid multiply them. The Prussian persecutions were systematic and virulent. He avoided to say directly what now you investigate as long as he could. Thus the so characteristic Prussian approach accumulates with present German jingoism . On other words in the past Dzierzon had to avoid the direct declaration and presently some Germans arrogantly refuse to accept any proof then the absolute one .'" The subtle message I infer from this is not that you "did not say anything about [my] attitude". I'm German, refusing to accept your "proof" and addressed with 'you' so according to you, I'm on the red side and should start to get onto the green one. No matter whether you're referring to Labbas and me and/or your previous interlocutors in de.wikipedia, just avoid it, please. Sciurinæ 23:00, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


 * As regards your second point, you added sources but you didn't back up/source the statement fully.  I'm neither confirming or denying that Dzierżon considered himself Polish, because I honestly don't know, and I bet you don't either. If he really said or wrote so, it means that probably, but not necessarily, he felt so. But for me "he considered himself" without time measurement implies a time like from his childhood to his deathbed (ie timeless), or just most of the time, not five minutes or even five years. If this quote is authentic and actually translated in a way  and not followed by another thought, then he probably regarded himself as a Pole at one point of time, in one of his innumerable writings, nothing more. "German education" is also in this quote, so maybe he saw himself as a German student. More importantly, what about Silesian? You've argued desperately and without success that he was Polish rather than Silesian in de.wiki. Maybe in the quote he just wanted to make a point about the old Polish borders, the nation, but usually favoured the view of himself as a Silesian. I do not anticipate that you're convinced by this, nor that you're going to sweep away my doubts (though clearly you're going to argue against it), which boils down to your point of view and my sceptical one. But only one point of view regarding the addition of statements is endorsed by WP:NOR, and it is not the one which interprets a primary source. Sciurinæ 23:00, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Serafin, if you have secondary sources (articles etc.) confirming that Dzierżon actually considered himself to be Polish, can you simply quote the relevant parts in this talk page (or provide links if these are online sources). No matter if they are English or Polish, please just do it. Someone would be able to verify and confirm it. And this would finally address the Sciurinæ's scepticism. Ideally this should be someone (a researcher, an author) claiming that Dzierżon considered himself Polish. --Lysytalk 07:02, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

-

Naming conventions (especially "Use English words") & Naming conventions (use English). -


 * OK. If you wish I will attempt to answer to you question directly. Please do not expect I will fulfill all you request or we will get a consensus. This is because I recognize you POV as quite inflexible, but I will tray to minimize you frustration as possible.

>Sciurinae, you forgot to specifically ask for English language sources, which is required at wikipedia, normally.


 * Let me know what you mean by English language sources. Do you mean English authors? ABC of Bee Culture last (40th ) edition is one. I will introduce it there.

>By now everyone seems to have gotten it, that Serafin/131.. and many Polish people insist on Dzierzon (or other people) as Polish, after all he was born in terrritory, that is 'Polish' now.
 * And was before was under Prussian control from the beginning of state formation in this area is not it?

>This intolerance and disregard for any other citizenship or affiliation is shown over and over at wikipedia by many Polish people.
 * There is mentioned in the article: “Prussia (later Germany) thus he was a German citizen.” I think you do not tolerate the thing the nationality is before that.

>The Polish law on Citizenship seems to supports something like this attitude. While dual citizenship is tolerated, no other citizenship than Polish is recognized.
 * You mean on territory of Poland. Yes I believe it is if you are Polish citizen and you enter Polish territory you can not disregard the any the duties as such. You can not be both at the same time on territory of Poland and claim different treatment and rights. Simple you can not switch with rights and duets as it is convenient at a moment. I think this is reasonable solution

>Poland only recognizes a dual citizenship person as being only Polish.
 * It is not so simple but something like I explained above.

>Johann Dzierzon was not born in Poland. His father, grandfather, etc were not born in Poland. They were all born in Lowkowitz, Silesia, Prussia, Germany.
 * You know, my perception is that in history Germans changed their minds. When was convenient the people were Germans citizens (subjects) on other time when convenient there were some individuals were set as alien element because their origin. This imperial politic injustice.

>The person Johann Dzierzon on Wikipedia is now Jan Dzierżon, completely overloaded with Polish-language sources.
 * And it should be as Jan Dzierżon is Polish name and he recognized himself as Polish. Also his closest relatives in at least two next generation continued this way.

>Many of those are already in the bottom references, so now we have the same Polish 'sources' plastered onto Dzierzon double or triple times.
 * Sorry. You can dislike it but “Further reading” is chosen set of most informative publications. That is other purpose.

>Seems like complete overkill and against Wikipedia policy. I do not know what you mean. >No wonder Encyclopedia Britannica reflects this kind of overload. There is also on some newest French encyclopaedias on line. I am sorry you are disappointed. It sometimes hapend that our own point of view is not the common one. Best regards, --Serafin 21:23, 13 January 2007 (UTC) -

"received the additional description"
I'm confused with this sentence:
 * From 1936 to 1945 his hometown of Lowkowitz received the additional description as Bienendorf.

What is "received the additional description" supposed to mean. Was it renamed or not ? What is a "description" of a town ? Who describes it ? --Lysytalk 01:16, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I did not put enough attention to the changes. It seems to me it was done long time ago. I changed it with historical reference. See: "Nazis' idea 1936"--Serafin 22:08, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

What language did he speak as a child
An interesting addition to the discussion on whether he felt Polish or not, would be that he did not know German language until he went to the secondary school in Byczyna, where he learnt it, so his mother tongue was Polish. Would anyone be able to confirm this with references ? --Lysytalk 07:16, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Why would it be important? I can only see this fueling the nationalist debate even further. It is not like his learning German allowed him to make the breakthroughs that he did.

--Jadger 18:57, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Johann Dzierzon's relatives - Polish ?
Temporary text - will be removed 1. Alfred Paul DZIERZON - Ancestral File Gender: M Birth/Christening: 14 Sep 1901 Siebenlehn, Drs, Sax, Germy 2. Alma Martha DZIERZON - Ancestral File Gender: F Birth/Christening: 18 Jun 1898 Grossroigtsberg Drs, Sax, E Grmn 3. Elli Ema DZIERZON - Ancestral File Gender: F Birth/Christening: 18 Mar 1907 Grossschirma Drs, Sax, E Grmn 4. Elsa Bertha DZIERZON - Ancestral File Gender: F Birth/Christening: 2 May 1900 Grossroigtsberg Drs, Sax, E Grmn 5. Erhardt Paul DZIERZON - Ancestral File Gender: M Birth/Christening: 22 May 1908 Grossschirma Drs, Sax, E Grmn 6. Erna Elsa DZIERZON - Ancestral File Gender: F Birth/Christening: 24 Sep 1905 Kleinroigtsberg Drs, Sax, E Germn 7. Frieda Dora DZIERZON - Ancestral File Gender: F Birth/Christening: 11 Jun 1911 Grossschirma Drs, Sax, E Grmn 8. Johann DZIERZON - Ancestral File Gender: M Birth/Christening: 12 Dec 1830 Niederkunzendorf, Silesia, Prs 9. Johann DZIERZON - Ancestral File Gender: M Birth/Christening: 1801 Nieder Kuenzendor, Schlesien, Prussia, Germany 10. Martha Elsa DZIERZON - Ancestral File Gender: F Birth/Christening: 16 Mar 1903 Kleinroigtsberg Drs, Sax, E Germn 11. Peter DZIERZON - Ancestral File Gender: M Birth/Christening: 14 Oct 1873 Bischdorf, Rosenberg, O/schlesien, Prussia 12. Robert John "Robbie" DZIERZON - Ancestral File Gender: M Birth/Christening: 3 Jun 1970 Salt Lake City, Salt Lake, Utah 13. Simon DZIERZON - Ancestral File Gender: M Birth/Christening: < 1775  14. Wolfgang Kurt DZIERZON - Ancestral File Gender: M Birth/Christening: 29 Jul 1943 Planitz Zwk, Sax, E Grmn -- 15. EVA DZIERZON - International Genealogical Index / CE Gender: Female Birth: 22 DEC 1795 Kotschanowitz,, Opolskiego, Poland 16. Jan Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index / CE Gender: Male Birth: 1811 Lawkowice,, , Poland 17. MARIA DZIERZON - International Genealogical Index / CE Gender: Female Birth: 08 JAN 1809 Kotschanowitz,, Opolskiego, Poland 18. ROSINA DZIERZON - International Genealogical Index / CE Gender: Female Birth: 22 AUG 1789 Kotschanowitz,, Opolskiego, Poland -- International Genealogical Index / Germany - 194+ Select records to download - (50 maximum) 1. Adam Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth:  2. Mrs Adam Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth:  3. Adolph Thomas Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 11 FEB 1849 Lowkowitz,, Schlesien, Preussen 4. AGATHA DZIERZON - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Christening: 08 FEB 1852 Katholisch, Falkowitz, Schlesien, Preussen 5. Alwine Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 16 DEC 1850 Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen 6. Alwine Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 14 DEC 1855 Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen 7. Andreas Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 19 NOV 1785 Lowkowitz,, Schlesien, Preussen 8. Andreas Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Christening: 28 FEB 1797 Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen 9. Andreas Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Christening: 28 FEB 1797 Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen 10. ANDREAS DZIERZON - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Christening: 28 FEB 1797 Kunzendorf, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 11. Andreas Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 08 JUL 1821 Oberkunzendorf, Schlesien, Preussen 12. Andreas Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: About 1842 Of Oberkunzendorf, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 13. Anna Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 21 JAN 1777 Lowkowitz,, Schlesien, Preussen 14. Anna Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth:  15. Anna Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth:  16. Anna Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Christening: 29 APR 1802 Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen 17. ANNA DZIERZON - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Christening: 29 APR 1802 Kunzendorf, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 18. Anna Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Christening: 29 APR 1802 Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen 19. Anna dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Christening: 26 OCT 1827 Lowkowitz,, Schlesien, Preussen 20. Anna Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 18 JAN 1833 Lowkowitz,, Schlesien, Preussen 21. Anna Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: About 1842 Of Niederkunzendorf, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 22. Anna Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: About 1848 Of Niederkunzendorf, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 23. Anna Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: About 1848 Of Niederkunzendorf, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 24. Anna Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 08 MAY 1848 Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen 25. Anna Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 23 JUN 1849 Oberkunzendorf, Schlesien, Preussen 26. Anna Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 26 JUL 1863 Niederkunzendorf, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 27. Anna Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 24 MAY 1864 Lowkowitz,, Schlesien, Preussen 28. Anna Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Marriage: 16 NOV 1916 Breslau,Nreslau,, Schlesien, Preussen 29. Anton Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 10 JAN 1850 Oberkunzendorf, Schlesien, Preussen 30. Anton Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 01 JAN 1864 Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen 31. Apollonia Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 09 FEB 1846 Oberkunzendorf, Schlesien, Preussen 32. ARNO KURT DZIERZON - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 27 AUG 1915 Grobschirma,, , Sachsen 33. Augustin Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 17 AUG 1853 Oberkunzendorf, Schlesien, Preussen 34. August Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 29 AUG 1854 Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen 35. Balzer Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 1816 Oberkunzendorf, Schlesien, Preussen 36. Barbara Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: About 1763 Of Lowkowitz, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 37. Barbara Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 16 NOV 1789 Lowkowitz,, Schlesien, Preussen 38. Barbara Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 16 NOV 1789 Lowkowitz,, Schlesien, Preussen 39. Barbara Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: About 1834 Of Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen 40. Barbara Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: About 1834 Of Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen 41. BARBARA DZIERZON - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Christening: 06 DEC 1854 Katholisch, Falkowitz, Schlesien, Preussen 42. Barbara Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 03 DEC 1855 Lowkowitz,, Schlesien, Preussen 43. BARTHOLOMAEUS DZIERZON - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Christening: 25 AUG 1844 Katholisch, Falkowitz, Schlesien, Preussen 44. Beata Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 14 DEC 1855 Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen 45. Bertha Alma Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 11 OCT 1876 Grossvoigtsberg, Dresden, Sachsen 46. Bertha Alma Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 11 OCT 1876 Grossvoigtsberg, Dresden, Sachsen 47. BERTHA ELSA DZIERZON - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 02 MAY 1900 Grossvoigtsberg, Dresden, Sachsen 48. BERTHA ELSA DZIERZON - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 02 MAY 1900 Grossvoigtsberg, Dresden, Sachsen 49. Christine Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 29 AUG 1854 Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen 50. Christina Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 20 JUL 1868 Oberkunzendorf, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 51. Christina Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 29 FEB 1868 Oberkunzendorf, Schlesien, Preussen 52. Daniel Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: Bodland,, Schlesien, Preussen 53. Daniel Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: Bodland, Schlesien, Preussen 54. Dominik Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth:  55. Mrs Dominik Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth:  56. Dominik Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 31 JUL 1850 Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen 57. Ella Martha Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 18 JUN 1898 Grossvoigtsberg, Dresden, Sachsen 58. Ella Martha Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 18 JUN 1898 Grossvoigtsberg, Dresden, Sachsen 59. Ella Martha Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 18 JUN 1898 Grossvoigteberg,, Dresden, Sachsen 60. Ella Martha Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 18 JUN 1898 Grossvoigtsberg, Dresden, Sachsen 61. ELLI EMMA DZIERZON - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 13 AUG 1907 Grossschirma, Dresden, Sachsen 62. ELSA BERTHA DZIERZON - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 02 MAY 1900 Grossvoigtsberg, Dresden, Sachsen 63. ELSA BERTHA DZIERZON - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 02 MAY 1900 Grossvoigtsberg, Dresden, Sachsen 64. EMMA ELLI DZIERZON - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 18 MAR 1907 Grossschirma, Dresden, Sachsen 65. EMMA ELLY DZIERZON - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Marriage: 13 APR 1929 Grossschirma, Dresden, Sachsen 66. Erna Elsa Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 24 SEP 1905 Kleinvoigtsberg, Dresden, Sachsen 67. Erna Elsa Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 24 SEP 1905 Kleinvoigtsberg, Dresden, Sachsen 68. Erna Elsa Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 24 SEP 1905 Kleisvoigtsberg,, Dresden, Sachsen 69. Eva Katharina Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 18 OCT 1861 Wittendorf,, , Germany 70. EVA KATHARINA DZIERZON - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 18 OCT 1861 Wittendorf, Schlesien, Preussen 71. EVA KATHARINA DZIERZON - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 18 OCT 1861 Wittendorf, Schlesien, Preussen 72. Franz Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: About 1837 Of Niederkunzendorf, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 73. Franz Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: About 1844 Of Oberkunzendorf, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 74. Franz Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 22 NOV 1845 Oberkunzendorf, Schlesien, Preussen 75. Franz Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 27 MAY 1847 Oberkunzendorf, Schlesien, Preussen 76. Franz Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 20 JUL 1853 Lowkowitz,, Schlesien, Preussen 77. Franz Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 24 FEB 1861 Lowkowitz,, Schlesien, Preussen 78. Franz Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 10 APR 1863 Lowkowitz,, Schlesien, Preussen 79. Franz Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 07 JUL 1865 Oberkunzendorf, Schlesien, Preussen 80. Franz Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 17 JAN 1866 Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen 81. Franz Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 01 DEC 1867 Niederkunzendorf, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 82. Franz Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 25 JUN 1870 Niederkunzendorf, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 83. Franz Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 25 JUN 1870 Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen 84. Franciska Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 19 SEP 1844 Niederkunzendorf, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 85. Franciska Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: About 1848 Of Oberkunzendorf, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 86. Francisca Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 14 FEB 1853 Oberkunzendorf, Schlesien, Preussen 87. Frieda Dora Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 11 JUN 1911 Grossschirma, Dresden, Sachsen 88. Frieda Dora Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 11 JUN 1911 Grossschirma, Dresden, Sachsen 89. Frieda Dora Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 11 JUN 1911 Grossschirma, Dresden, Sachsen 90. Frieda Dora Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 11 JUN 1911 Grossschirma, Dresden, Sachsen 91. Gregor Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 1717 Lowkowitz, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 92. Gregor Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 1717 Lowkowitz, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 93. Gregor Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: About 1756 Of Lowkowitz,, Schlesien, Preussen 94. gregor dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: About 1765 Of Lowkowitz,, Schlesien, Preussen 95. Gregor Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Christening: 06 MAR 1806 Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen 96. Gregor Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Christening: 06 MAR 1806 Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen 97. GREGOR DZIERZON - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Christening: 06 MAR 1806 Kunzendorf, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 98. Hedwig Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: About 1760 Lowkowitz, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 99. Hedwig Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: About 1760 Lowkowitz, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 100. Hedwig Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: About 1763 Of Lowkowitz, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 101. Hedwig Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 10 OCT 1771 Lowkowitz,, Schlesien, Preussen 102. Hedwig Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 12 OCT 1778 Lowkowitz,, Schlesien, Preussen 103. Hedwig Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth:  104. Hedwig Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth:  105. Hedwig Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: About 1831 Of Oberkunzendorf, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 106. Hedwig Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: About 1841 Oberkunzendorf, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 107. Hedwig Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: About 1841 Oberkunzendorf, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 108. Hedwig Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 22 SEP 1847 Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen 109. Hedwig Francisca Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Christening: 04 OCT 1849 Lowkowitz,, Schlesien, Preussen 110. HEDWIG DZIERZON - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Christening: 27 SEP 1849 Katholisch, Falkowitz, Schlesien, Preussen 111. Hedwig Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 17 OCT 1856 Oberkunzendorf, Schlesien, Preussen 112. Ignaz Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 28 JUL 1848 Oberkunzendorf, Schlesien, Preussen 113. Ignatz Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 05 MAY 1856 Niederkunzendorf, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 114. Jacob Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 25 APR 1788 Lowkowitz,, Schlesien, Preussen 115. Jacob dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Christening: 04 MAY 1825  116. Jacob Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 20 JUL 1835 Lowkowitz,, Schlesien, Preussen 117. Jakob Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 20 JUL 1835 Lowkowitz, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 118. Jakob Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 20 JUL 1835 Lowkowitz, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 119. Jacob Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 28 JUN 1853 Oberkunzendorf, Schlesien, Preussen 120. Jacob Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 27 APR 1856 Oberkunzendorf, Schlesien, Preussen 121. Jacob Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 15 JUL 1862 Oberkunzendorf, Schlesien, Preussen 122. Jacob Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 23 JUL 1863 Niederkunzendorf, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 123. Jacob Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 23 JUL 1863 Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen 124. Jakob Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 30 MAR 1866 Lowkowitz, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 125. Jakob Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 30 MAR 1866 Lowkowitz, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 126. johanna dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 29 JUL 1795 Lowkowitz,, Schlesien, Preussen 127. Johann Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 1749 Lowkowitz, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 128. Johann Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 1749 Lowkowitz, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 129. Johann Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 1752 Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen 130. Johann Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 1752 Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen 131. Johann Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth:  132. Mrs Johann Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth:  133. Johann Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth:  134. Johann Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: About 1766 Of Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen 135. Johann Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: About 1766 Of Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen 136. Johann Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 11 OCT 1777 Lowkowitz,, Schlesien, Preussen 137. Johann Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 01 DEC 1780 Lowkowitz,, Schlesien, Preussen 138. Johann Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 15 MAY 1782 Lowkowitz,, Schlesien, Preussen 139. johann dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 14 NOV 1791 Lowkowitz,, Schlesien, Preussen 140. Johann Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth:  141. Johann Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: About 1802 Of Lowkowitz, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 142. Mrs Johann Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: <Oberkunzendorf, Schlesien, Preussen> 143. Johann Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: <Lowkowitz,, Schlesien, Preussen> 144. Jan Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: <Of Niederkunzendorf, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen> 145. Jan Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: <Of Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen> 146. Jan Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: <Of Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen> 147. Mrs Johann Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: <Lowkowitz,, Schlesien, Preussen> 148. Mrs Jan Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: <Of Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen> 149. JOHANN DZIERZON - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 16 JAN 1811 Low Kowitz, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 150. Mrs Jan Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: <Of Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen> 151. Johann dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Christening: 07 APR 1814 Lowkowitz,, Schlesien, Preussen 152. Johann Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 1817 Lowkowitz,, Schlesien, Preussen 153. Johann Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 1819 Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen 154. Johann dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Christening: 19 MAR 1820 Lowkowitz,, Schlesien, Preussen 155. Johann Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Christening: 12 JUN 1825 Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen 156. Johann Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 1825 Oberkunzendorf, Schlesien, Preussen 157. Johann Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Christening: 12 JUN 1825 Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen 158. Johann Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: About 1827 Of Niederkunzendorf, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 159. Jan Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: About 1830 Of Niederkunzendorf, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 160. Johann Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 12 DEC 1830 Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen 161. Johann Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 12 DEC 1830 Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen 162. Johann Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 12 DEC 1830 Niederkunzendorf,, , Germany 163. Johann Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 1830 Oberkunzendorf, Schlesien, Preussen 164. Johann Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 12 DEC 1830 Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen 165. JOHANN DZIERZON - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Christening: 12 DEC 1830 Kunzendorf, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 166. Johann oder Jan Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Christening: 03 JUN 1832 Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen 167. Johann Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 22 JUN 1838 Lowkowitz,, Schlesien, Preussen 168. Johann Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 22 JUN 1838 Lowkowitz,, Schlesien, Preussen 169. Johann Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: About 1847 <Bischdorf,Rosenberg,, Schlesien, Preussen> 170. Johann Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 23 MAY 1850 Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen 171. Johann Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 24 MAY 1853 Lowkowitz,, Schlesien, Preussen 172. Johann Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 19 MAY 1856 Oberkunzendorf, Schlesien, Preussen 173. Johann Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 13 DEC 1857 Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen 174. Johann Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 02 NOV 1859 Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen 175. Johann Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 21 AUG 1860 Niederkunzendorf, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 176. Johann Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 21 AUG 1860 Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen 177. Johann Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 31 DEC 1861 Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen 178. Johannes Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 03 SEP 1865 Niederkunzendorf, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 179. Johann Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 17 OCT 1865 Lowkowitz,, Schlesien, Preussen 180. Johann Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 24 JAN 1869 Niederkunzendorf, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 181. Joseph Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 01 JAN 1787 Lowkowitz,, Schlesien, Preussen 182. Joseph Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: <Lowkowitz,, Schlesien, Preussen> 183. Joseph Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: <Lowkowitz,, Schlesien, Preussen> 184. Joseph Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Christening: 12 JAN 1796 Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen 185. Joseph Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Christening: 12 JAN 1796 Niederkunzendorf,, Schlesien, Preussen 186. JOSEPH DZIERZON - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Christening: 12 JAN 1796 Kunzendorf, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 187. Joseph Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: <Of Niederkunzendorf, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen> 188. Mrs Joseph Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: <Of Niederkunzendorf, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen> 189. Joseph dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Christening: 11 APR 1812 Lowkowitz,, Schlesien, Preussen 190. Joseph Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: About 1822 Of Niederkunzendorf, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 191. Joseph Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 1824 Oberkunzendorf, Schlesien, Preussen 192. Joseph Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: About 1826 Of Oberkunzendorf, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 193. Joseph Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: About 1839 Of Niederkunzendorf, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen 194. Joseph Dzierzon - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: About 1841 Of Niederkunzendorf, Kreuzburg, Schlesien, Preussen This is only to J - there are more - ( type in Dzierzon, search) This text is temporary and will be removed- Labbas 19 January 2007


 * If that is true, his oldest known ancestors come from Saxony, is that not correct? or are these just people with the same last name?


 * --Jadger 23:20, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

TO Sciurinæ Britannica & ..
>As regards your second point, you added sources but you didn't back up/source the statement fully. Sciurinæ


 * I only can suppose you mean the Britannica . I ask you to be specific. This is the reference: Britannica Encyclopedia, 15th edition; article "Dzierżoniów" page 312. I segregated the sources in to two sections. If you do not like it in one of them this will be move to the second ie. “born to Polish parents.” You also question some other but I can not understand you action. 204.13.69.220 02:28, 20 January 2007
 * The statement I was talking of was, of course, "he considered himself a Pole". As I said earlier, if you have any source that really states that Dzierzon "considered himself a Pole", quote it. I said nothing about Britannica. (The current) 15th edition of Britannica? It reads that the town Dzierżoniów "was renamed for the Polish priest Jan Dzierzon." Nothing more on Dzierzon. Are you seriously suggesting that if I didn't like it behind "he considered himself a Pole", as if it verified that, it is to be put behind "born to Polish parents" then, as if it verified at least that one? I'm shocked by this suggestion. Sciurinæ 23:35, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Do not be shocked. If he was Polish it means his parents were also. If you still do not like this you can put all new sentence. Jan Dzierzon was Polish.
 * "Polish" does not (necessarily) mean that one's parents were Polish. Or does every Polish citizen have Polish parents? Sciurinæ 17:56, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

>I'm neither confirming or denying that Dzierżon considered himself Polish, because I honestly don't know, and I bet you don't either. Sciurinæ


 * You will be suppressed I know. All the available resources I investigated. 204.13.69.220 02:28, 20 January 2007
 * Self-evidently you read those resources you added and I'm sure you know a lot about Dzierzon, but I doubt that you know his self-perception for sure. This is simply my impression after trying unsuccessfully to get you to verify "he considered himself a Pole" properly. Sciurinæ 23:35, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * This is not my conclusions that he was Polish or consider himself Polish this are conclusions of all the Polish authors. Until now nobody give me modern German author who says Dzierzon was German (one exception Karl Fleischer, NSDAP propagandist in 1930’s - last time in 1956).
 * The point of view that Dzierzon was German does exist even in non-Google-books sources on the net in English and there are many more google books, but quantity is not decisive in Wikipedia (or probably it would say that God exists). The WP:NPOV is decisive, not the majority point of view. I also don't have to assert that he was German (maybe like an agnostic doesn't have to favour another reason why we exist). This pdf (in German) also deals with the question as to which nation Dzierzon belongs to - Polish or German - and concludes that Dzierzon connects both nations. I'm sure this is intolerable for you, just like "Silesian" (which might be the fairest option). Sciurinæ 17:56, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

>If he really said or wrote so, it means that probably, but not necessarily, he felt so. Sciurinæ


 * I already mentioned to you that it is not only one word or sentence. All his live indicate his strong filings in the matter. You impute me nonchalance very strongly. It is, let say improper. You attack people integrity instead question a definite item from the subject. I like logical step by step scientific considerations you doing opposite. 204.13.69.220 02:28, 20 January 2007
 * Please don't take it personally when someone questions the foundation of your statement. And I'm unsure what you mean by saying I should "question a definite item from the subject". The item I generally focused on is the claim that any of the sources you added behind the statement "he considered himself a Pole" verified this statement. Since there are still no relevant passages quoted here that clearly say that Dzierzon considered himself a Pole and since neither of the two sources I could check out (the Britannica article and the Dzierzon quote) verify the claim "he considered himself a Pole", I would even say that I was right in questioning it. Sciurinæ 23:35, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * You can ask Lysy and read my description to Lysy. I am not obstinate with the fragment he considered himself a Pole. We can put: "Jan Dzierzon was Polish priest and beekeeper" or something like that. It is perfectly all right for me.
 * I see a trend: none of your comments refer to my previous ones and are just a new thought in general. This shouldn't be carved up putting each part under another of my statements as if in response, either. You do not need to have the last word in every of the points. Sciurinæ 17:56, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

>But for me "he considered himself" without time measurement implies a time like from his childhood to his deathbed (ie timeless), or just most of the time, not five minutes or even five years. If this quote is authentic and actually translated in a way and not followed by another thought, then he probably regarded himself as a Pole at one point of time, in one of his innumerable writings, nothing more. "German education" is also in this quote, so maybe he saw himself as a German student. Sciurinæ


 * Consider “all the time”, and I mentioned to you only with you good faith and realistic talk we can discusse. This format questioning artificial points consume time, nothing more. 204.13.69.220 02:28, 20 January 2007
 * So you do believe that he considered himself a Pole "all the time". Well, you're free to believe it and I'm not saying it is a wrong belief. But you can't bring this unverifiable statement into Wikipedia, which also means that we don't even have to put one another's faith into question. Sciurinæ 23:35, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * You know what for me is perfectly verifiable. You just do not want believe what I saying. You do not accept Britannica, nor other English language sources. Just you decided to say is unverifiable. Can you verify that our globe is spherical until you will believe some other people talk :)))

>More importantly, what about Silesian? Sciurinæ


 * Silesian is not a nation. Silesia is a region originally inhabited by Slavic tribe Silesians who integrated into Old Polish Kingdom IX-XIV century. Some Germans like to underline the region differences and some attempt to mix in the internal Polish affairs on this base. Native language there is Polish or Polish dialect if you wish. 204.13.69.220 02:28, 20 January 2007

>You've argued desperately and without success that he was Polish rather than Silesian in de.wiki. Maybe in the quote he just wanted to make a point about the old Polish borders, the nation, but usually favored the view of himself as a Silesian. Sciurinæ


 * As I know 170.000 inhabitants is small percent who imagine a Silesian nation exits. 204.13.69.220 02:28, 20 January 2007


 * Look, I wasn't going to insert that he was Silesian and trying to convince you (this is what your previous interlocutors in de.wiki did, not me). Please do not carve up my whole reply and respond to each part separately because, as was the case, you may miss the point. The only reason I brought up "Silesian" was because I'm unconvinced by his alleged view of himself as a Pole, an explanation I only wanted to give you for understanding my point of view. Does anything in your two above statements rule out the possibility of him favouring the view of himself as Silesian? No. Sciurinæ 23:35, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The idea of separate nation was invented by occupied powers most probably Austrians for political reason. Living in Poland and having contact with inhabitants of Silesia I can say that except strong regional patriotism they considered themselves as Polish or Germans. I never met there a single Silesian who expressed idea of separate new nation. Now I know that there are some group which request some separation, but it is small group I wander if can be the 170 000. In Dzierzon’s time the idea of small independent nation in centre of Europe would be consider as out of sense - there was Prussia, Austria, Russia and Poland straggling for surviving. Beside there is so many things known about Dzierzon live and character that I have no doubts. Any way I would like to read a book which would discuss the separate Silesia idea in Dzierzon case :)

>I do not anticipate that you're convinced by this, nor that you're going to sweep away my doubts (though clearly you're going to argue against it), which boils down to your point of view and my sceptical one. Sciurinæ


 * I hardly see you arguments which should convince me. And I would found some other word then “skeptical” :) 204.13.69.220 02:28, 20 January 2007
 * That missed my point again. And "skeptical" means being uncertain if something is true, which neither implies "rightly" or "wrongly" so. If there is a more neutral word for it, you should just have said it. On the other hand, if you only had a pejorative word to offer (like "arrogant", "jingoist" etc) and therefore didn't say more, please avoid insinuating as well. Sciurinæ 23:35, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * You see Skeptical and skeptical is different. Skeptical with capital S is when somebody has reasonable arguments against a theory. It is constructive. The skeptical by small s is just saying "NO" or "I do not believe. Do you understand me in this point?

>But only one point of view regarding the addition of statements is endorsed by WP:NOR, and it is not the one which interprets a primary source. Sciurinæ


 * Would you be more specific? I hardly understand what you are talking about. Explain me what is you question. - Specify what is wrong and what exactly you want. Could you? AS> 204.13.69.220 02:28, 20 January 2007
 * No surprise then, that you misunderstand my conclusion if you don't look at it as a whole. My point of view is skeptical of your one regarding Dzierzon's self-perception (maybe like an agnostic is doubtful about the view of a believer). I tried to explain my point of view to you but you just saw it as another opportunity to argue against it. But even if you were right, WP:NOR is against the introduction of previously unpublished interpretations of primary sources, so after your block has lifted, verify it - if "he considered himself a Pole" is verifiable. You won't get round by arguing with me ad infinitum following the fact I didn't get onto the 'green side'. Sciurinæ 23:35, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Simplifying what would convince you?

--131.104.218.46 20:09, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I've told you to verify the statement "he considered himself a Pole" (and how to do so) for six times in a space of thirteen days. Not only did you not do it, but you wasted your and my time talking and now you ask me again what would convince me as if the thirteen days had never happened, without even admitting you couldn't verify it. I've therefore removed all the sources that obviously do not verify "he considered himself a Pole" but pretend otherwise. Beaumont, by contrast, added an aged source that says something about his self-perception as a Pole and did not waste his time trying to talk around the subject. If I ask for something because I'm not yet convinced, what do you expect will convince me other than what I asked for? Anyway, you're supposed to avoid editing for one month unless you don't mind being blocked indefinitely. Sciurinæ 17:56, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

TO Lysy - Secoundary sources?
>Serafin, if you have secondary sources (articles etc.) confirming that Dzierżon actually onsidered himself to be Polish, can you simply quote the relevant parts in this talk page (or provide links if these are online sources).


 * I really do not know what you mean by secondary source. For me primary source is original document in a museum. I quoted the fragment and cited the signature of the letter in Kluczborg museum. I offer you to send photocopy of adequate pages from “Jan Dzierzom stadium monograficzne”.  Title from “Dziennik Zachodni” refers to this citation from the same letter. In A. Gładysz "Jan Dzierżon, pszczelarz o światowej sławie" Katowice 1957; page 28 the author discuses this latter also.
 * The S. Orgelbrand "Encyklopedia ..." 1861; see article: "Dzierżoń" is mentioned in A. Gładysz "Jan Dzierżon, pszczelarz o światowej sławie". The cite from the encyclopedia is: ‘Dzierżon, ks. Pleban w Karlsmart, w Górnym Śląsku, powiecie brzeskim, uznający się za Polaka, tem samem i jego metoda do pszczolnictwa polskiego należy.”
 * Also I mentioned that all authors W. Kocowicz, A. Kuźba, W. Chmielewski, L. Brożek, A. Gładysz all of them strongly underline Dzierzon is Polish. "Tracing Jan Dzierżon Passion", "Jan Dzierżon. Studium monograficzne", "Jan Dzierżon, pszczelarz o światowej sławie" are books and discuss in many details why we should consider Jan Dzierzon as a Pole. I added there only most relevant pages numbers. There can be found many facts about Dzierzon activity against Prussian authorities, his nephews testimonies, what was Dzierzon family historical background etc. All the authors are not a simple street guys they did their job properly.
 * I can give several titles of articles written by world famous scientist in Beekeeping field professor Woyke. I did not read this articles b

The Lead
I recently edited the lead to neutralize a nebulous matter which has not reached a total consensus. My edit summary indicated that all of the information remained in the article. It was all reverted by an anonymous editor with the edit summary, " ...the fact that he was Polish is more important than the other facts". Really? Dr. Dan (talk) 15:41, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Intro
In this edit at Johannes Hevelius, Molobo said that the adjective "Polish" in Category:Polish astronomers refers to the Polish state, not the Polish ethnicity. This stands in opposition to this edit here at Jan Dzierżon, in which he uses the adjective to refer to the Polish ethnicity.

I already mentioned this earlier on this talkpage, but as per Manual of Style (biographies):
 * Nationality (In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable. Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability.).

Since Dzierżon was never a citizen of a Polish state, I will add a link to Poles (as his Polish ethnicity was important to him) as well as a link to his citizenship (as per the Manual of Style). Olessi (talk) 01:02, 10 January 2008 (UTC) Sorry the Polish astronomers may mean both ethnic Poles but is not exclusive to them, as it can also include citizens of Polish state. The similar thing is in Russian writers category.--Molobo (talk) 22:48, 10 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I personally dislike limiting a category like Polish astronomers to solely those with Polish allegiance or solely ethnic Poles, since the English adjective has varying meanings. Of course, the same should hold true for other categories, such as German astronomers. Olessi (talk) 23:31, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

-

J. Dzierzon's OWN HANDWRITTEN SIGNATURE and titles: Dr. Johann Dzierzon, Pfarrer
Dzierzon signed a portrait as '''Dr. Johann Dzierzon. Pfarrer He had received the Doctor title and he was a Pfarrer (German for pastor, priest) before he became known as Bienenvater- Father of Bees'''  The Silesian Dzierzon was born in Silesia, Kingdom of Prussia, to long-time Silesian parents and he never moved out of the country. Yet time and time again this vital information gets repeatedly removed and the incorrect category Polish etc- get put back. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.133.64.78 (talk) 02:23, 13 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Please upload it to commons, and provide a source and license, like .-- Matthead  DisOuß   11:32, 13 January 2008 (UTC)


 * German language was used by many Poles living in Prussia at the time, and of course as Polish state didn't exist at the time, they could hardly move to Poland.--Molobo (talk) 02:34, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Poles could move to Congress Poland which "had a parliament (sejm) which could vote laws and was responsible to the tsar. It had also its own army, Polish currency (złoty), budget, penal code and a customs boundary separating it from the rest of Russian lands". Obviously, people living in Prussia, using German language, like Johann Dzierzon, choose not to move there. -- Matthead DisOuß   11:32, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
 * You missed a line after the sentence you copied:"In reality all opposition to the emperor was persecuted and the law was disregarded at will by Russian officia", de-facto part of Russia, not a true seperate state, and only part of Polish territories.--Molobo (talk) 12:19, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

They chose not to move to Russia, instead they chose to stay in the lands of their ancestors, hoping that some day they will return to Mother Poland, which they finally did (not all of them unfortunately) in 1945. Space Cadet (talk) 16:36, 13 January 2008 (UTC)


 * And so what Molobo? The Celts should also then move back to their "ancestral homeland" and force everyone else out that has lived there for Millenia (or in the case of much of Poland, at most 63 years). So Silesia should be Celtic by your reasoning pan Molobo, according to this map. . Stop with your Nationalistic BS, "mother Poland" lol, that's gotta be a horrid family you have their my dear little foundling

--Jadger (talk) 18:44, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about? I'm Space Cadet, not Molobo and the vocative form of "pan" is "panie". Did you really get the point of Polish Silesians not willing to immigrate to the Congress Kingdom? I doubt it, because why the ridiculous analogy with Celts? "Mother Poland" is a term often used in patriotic songs, poems and literature in general, so easy with your out of line "lol". Why 63 years? Are you OK? What medication are you on right now? Your seriously concerned Space Cadet (talk) 21:36, 18 January 2008 (UTC)