Talk:Johann Peter Hebel

GOCE copy edit, July 2012

 * Contradiction in lead section: a prelate (q.v.) is a clergyman. Also, in normal English usage, a vicar is a parish priest -- other meanings would only be understood where the word is qualified. In what sense did Hebel become a "vicar"? Finally, sub-deacon (q.v.) is also a clercial title. I suspect you are referring to ranks of teachers, but am not sure. If so, these are the wrong terms. --Stfg (talk) 13:39, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Were his parents patrician (lead: "Born in Basel to a patrician family") or employed by patricians (Early life section: "... where his parents were employed in a patrician household during the summer"? --Stfg (talk) 13:39, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I removed that part in the lead. I think they were not patricians.-- GoP T C N 09:46, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * "Calendar stories" section: I've tagged "farces" for clarification because it must be the wrong word. Farce (q.v.) is a theatrical genre, not applicable to stories. --Stfg (talk) 20:06, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I replaced it with "drolleries"-- GoP T C N 09:46, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks. The meaning is clear now. I've changed that to "comical stories", which is more normal. --Stfg (talk) 12:55, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * "Calendar stories" section: "There was a dispute among Catholics in 1815, as Hebel's calendar story "Der fromme Rat" (pious advice), issued in 1814, was partially criticized as being offensive, leading to the removal of the calendar." This is most confusing. How can a dispute among Catholics in 1815 have led to the withdrawal of a Lutheran calendar published in 1814? In what sense was it "partially" criticised? A more step-by-step explanation is needed. --Stfg (talk) 20:31, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I reworded it a bit. I will add more content regarding this.-- GoP T C N 09:46, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * "Calendar stories" section: "In the following years, Hebel resigned as an editor ...". One cannot resign over a period of years. If you resign, you give up the job, and that's that. --Stfg (talk) 20:31, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Replaced with "subsequently". -- GoP T C N 09:46, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * "Reception and legacy" section: "indeed obstruct the universe in the most naive, graceful fashion".[20] "Obstruct" just has to be a mistranslation here, and I'm suspicious of "naive" as well. I cannot find the passage that this might be a translation of on p.71 of Oellers. Could you check the page number and provide the German text here, please? --Stfg (talk) 13:13, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * "Verbauern" may mean "become countrified" "auf die naivste, anmutigste Weise durchaus das Universum verbauert"
 * Yes, I see it in the source now, and in context I think that has to be it. (I have a dictionary that gives this as its only meaning for verbauern). The source appears to use it transitively, and so have I. --Stfg (talk) 19:55, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The article has "honor" 3 times and "honour" once. Please clarify if you want American or British English. --Stfg (talk) 13:45, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Done
 * I have copy edited the "Reception and legacy" section up to and including "poets who wrote folk idylls", but from there on I am encountering unintelligible passages that might even be machine translations. I will suspend the copy edit until the following are dealt with, as well as the issue of clerical terms in the first bullet, and will then continue. So, we need better translations of, or the German for:
 * "nature of the meadow";
 * I first thought it was wiese (meadow), but as it later transpired it is the river Wiese.
 * --Stfg (talk) 19:55, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * "The stories ... are on mood, on deep and genuine feeling, on vivacity of the description totally consummate and balance out a whole cart load of novels" (especially the part in italics);
 * "Die Erzählungen […] sind an Laune, an tiefem und wahrem Gefühl, an Lebhaftigkeit der Darstellung vollkommen unübertrefflich und wiegen ein ganzes Fuder Romane auf" another word for "consummate" may be "unbeatable", "unsurpassable", "superlative"; "Lebhaftikeit" may mean "animation", "loveliness", "vividness", "sprightliness", etc. Not sure what is the correct word here.
 * Ah, I see. an Laune ... unübertrefflich = unsurpassed in mood ... Good --Stfg (talk) 19:55, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * "a tool of true poetdom";
 * "Dichtertum" - "tum" is often "dom" in English, so poetdom. A neologism I think.
 * Yes, a neo for sure. "the poetic craft" is possibly more formal. --Stfg (talk) 19:55, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * "the undertone of the lasting, the valid, the eternity, the eternal-human resonate";
 * "der Unterton des Bleibenden, des Gültigen, des Ewigen, des Ewig-Menschlichen mitklingt"
 * "and much confident and in the impact purer and mightier than Goethe";
 * "Wir lesen, glaube ich, auch heut noch in keiner Literaturgeschichte, dass Hebel der größte deutsche Erzähler war, so groß wie nur Keller und viel sicherer und in der Wirkung reiner und mächtiger als Goethe."
 * Oh, I see. This means that no history yet says that he's any of those things. It's rather ambivalent. Hesse may mean "... but we should one day" or else "... and there's a reason for that". It depends whether "auch heut noch" is sarcastic or not. --Stfg (talk) 19:55, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * "No other book have I wrote which I furtively measured on his language, and I wrote every first in shorthand, for which I only thank him".
 * "Kein Buch habe ich geschrieben, das ich nicht heimlich an seiner Sprache maß, und jedes schrieb ich zuerst in der Kurzschrift nieder, deren Kenntnis ich ihm allein schulde."
 * Got it! The verb is not anmessen but anmaßen. :)) --Stfg (talk) 19:55, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * --Stfg (talk) 13:45, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

We're getting there. We still need to deal with the first bullet about clerical terminology. Was he in fact ever ordained? In saying he wanted to be a clergyman, do you mean that he wanted to be ordained or that he wanted to become a parish priest? It seems strange if he was offered the parish of Freiburg im Breisgau before even being ordained.

Also, please would you check through the page to ensure I've not misunderstood anything. I've left one or two clarify tags and a dn in there too. I plan to finish this evening and archive the GOCE request, but it's on my watchlist and I'll still be happy to do more work on it if needed. --Stfg (talk) 19:55, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your copyedits and your assistance. I think I fixed all those clergical ranks. You are correct that vicar is also used as a synonym for parish priest. I am not sure what needs to be clarified in "Famous poets such as Jean Paul (1803) and Goethe (1804) wrote receptions[clarification needed] to the poems.". Also, what does the disambiguation needed tags exactly mean? Regards.-- GoP T C N 11:33, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
 * To speak of writing a "reception" to a poem doesn't make any sense in English. What is the German here? "Schatzkästlein" in paragraph 3 of the "Reception and legacy" section might be referring to the book with that word in its title, or to the story mentioned in the previous paragraph. I suspect that what influenced Canetti might have been the book. If so, it needs to be in italics, not quotes, and I suggest using a longer version of the title. If the story, it would be wise to say so explicitly, because of the possibility of misunderstanding. I will re-read the article now to see if all the clerical terms are clear. --Stfg (talk) 13:17, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Some progress. Replacing vicar with assistant preacher is good. I'm less confident about sub-deaon and court deacon. The problem, I now realise, is that Evangelical churches use certain terms quite differently from the way that Anglicans and Catholics do, and almost no English speakers will know these meanings. So I'll make some suggestions. In the German wikipedia article "Diakon" there is:

"'In der evangelischen – vor allem der reformierten – Tradition wird der Diakon entsprechend Calvins Genfer Kirchenordnung als eines der vier kirchlichen Ämter angesehen. Obliegt den Pastoren die Verkündigung, den Presbytern die Gemeindeleitung und Gemeindezucht sowie den Lehrern die Erziehung, so haben Diakone die Aufgabe, sich um die Armen, Bedürftigen und Kranken zu sorgen und sich um die Verwaltung zu kümmern. So gehörte etwa das Krankenabendmahl im Anschluss an die viermal jährlich stattfindenden Abendmahlsfeiern zu ihren Aufgaben.'"

As almost no English readers will understand that meaning. I suggest perhaps using the German word Diakon, in italics, perhaps "assistant Diakon" rather than subdeacon, and also "court Diakon". What do you think?

I now think that "prelate" is OK. --Stfg (talk) 14:04, 18 July 2012 (UTC)