Talk:Johann Tserclaes, Count of Tilly

Orthography
Tserclaes or t'Serclaes? But not both. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.204.57.250 (talk) 07:12, 14 July 2006.
 * The google test lends support to Johann Tserclaes von Tilly. Here are the results:
 * Johann Tserclaes von Tilly - 10,700
 * Johan Tserclaes von Tilly - 10,600
 * Johann Tserclaes, Count of Tilly - 655
 * Johann t'Serclaes von Tilly - 395
 * Johan t'Serclaes, Count of Tilly - 332
 * I'm not quite sure how the title of this article managed to be the least commonly used. If I don't get any objections, I'll move the article. cøøki ə Ξ (talk) 02:19, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Please use the English 'Count of Tilly' regardless of which family name you use. Otherwise this seems an excellent idea. Saga City 05:25, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
 * No opposition, so I have moved the article. cøøki ə Ξ (talk) 02:31, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Rome?
I did not understand the reference to Rome and "insubordination to the papacy." Tilly was a general on the imperial army, he did not report neither to Rome nor to the Papacy. The fact that his army supposedly fought for the "Catholic" side does not mean that in any way the Vatican had any responsibility for its actions. That comment is absurd and should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.45.13.156 (talk) 05:24, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Genocide?
I would propose changing the name of the 'genocide' section to either "War Crimes of Tilly" or "Tilly's Crimes Against Humanity".

Tilly obviously committed what we would now think of as war crimes, and there is a very good evidence in favor of the theory that he committed crimes against humanity as well. Genocide, however, has a much higher standard of proof. Simply put, there is no evidence that he was undertaking a policy of "deliberate and systematic destruction of an ethnic group in whole or in part". It was obviously impossible and undesirable to exterminated all the Germans, and attempting Genocide against the Protestants in a "deliberate and systematic" would also have been unrealistic. The religion of a polity was, legally, the religion of its ruler, so Magdeburg's was (from a legal standpoint) a Catholic city from the moment the city was conquered.

It is far from clear that the extermination of Protestants was even Tilly's (or his troops) goals, or that the religion and ethnicity of the citizens of Magdeburg has any relevance for them. Massacres and sacks were commonplace during the 30 Years War, and although the sack of Magdeburg was particularly horrifying, it was not unique. Massacres by Catholics on Catholics (and by Protestants on Protestants) were not unheard of, and even when that sack of a city was not committed by coreligionists, it was motivated by the desire for loot, rape, and revenge rather than any deliberate policy of ethnic cleansing.

It would be possible to argue that Tilly (as well as Wallenstein and many other 30 Years War figures, military and political) were undertaking a policy of genocide throughout the Germanies, but it is not the mainstream view. The genocide theory shouldn't be presented without research and sources to back it, and Wikipedia is not the forum to argue this issue. It might be appropriate to consider this issue under a more neutral title, but the heading is inappropriate as is.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.167.20 (talk) 08:47, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Count of "Tilly", 'Tilly' where?
From videos I have watched on the subject, 'Tilly' is pronounced "teal"? The place names on WP are all small places in France. Where does the count's namesake refer to? Nagelfar (talk) 20:06, 18 April 2021 (UTC)


 * The town is in the French-speaking part of Belgium, in what used to be Habsburg Netherlands. == Peter NYC (talk) 01:38, 21 April 2021 (UTC)